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Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Chapter 9 - Hastening Doom

Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Good post Z

My thoughts on Chapter 9 - Hastening Doom

This is the battle we were waiting for. In the beginning Linden loses all her remaining companions almost immediately. Things were looking bad. I hoped this would be the moment she would try to free her son from possession with the power of her love. But that doesn't happen. Instead Linden decides to break the ward Jeremiah-kroyel put on this chamber. Apparently this ward prevents Elohim and their relatives from entering or even detecting this chamber. Color me confused. Does the Harrow look like he's winning? Kroyel-Jeremiah doesn't seem susceptible to Harrow's mind-control and has power to spare and even acidic servants.

I'm with Esmer on this. Linden is a fool and a SUCK-er to think she'll be evening the score with this. The Harrow gets punched through the chest by sneaky Roger and I feel disappointed he's gone this easily. More could have been done with him.

Anyway suddenly all of Linden's companions start cropping up, even the Ardent. Another disappointment. They have all been freed off-screen somehow. I was sure it would take a gargantuan effort if it was possible at all to free the Ardent from the watery ballroom. But he's here fluttering his ribbands in Jeremiah's eyes. Another missed opportunity.

There were quite a few missed opportunities in this scene, to my mind:

- Stave tries to kick Jeremiah's head off. I expected Linden to be conflicted about it but she doesn't seem to worry for her son.

- Covenant is attacking his son Roger with the krill. Could he have lived with himself if he killed his own son? Severely injured him? We'll never know now. And the exchange between them is so paltry... They are meeting for the first time (in the flesh at least) since Roger was born. Roger apparently shaped his whole life around his father's legacy. But they just wave their weapons at each other.

- Linden could try to protect Covenant's hands with the power of her staff. Combine their powers by pouring power into his weapon. But she doesn't. Healing or protecting him or combining their efforts is an impossibility for her.

- And Esmer kidnaps Roger. So we'll have to wait for another time to have any of these meaningful exchanges between him, his father and Linden.

- The Ardent's character is not explored through the overcoming of temptation (as well as Linden's other companions)

- The Harrow and his purpose are discarded and Linden gets her staff back. This make her more capable of action but less able to develop I fear.

In general it seemed like Esmer is the top dog in this battle.

We end the chapter with the Harrow dead, Roger gone, Covenant's hands burnt to the bone, and Covenant holding the croyel at knife edge while Esmer with the demondim-spawn appear, to save the day?


Not a bad chapter but not a great one either.

What did the chapter title signify? Is it the nameless monster in the pit which all signs tell is about to appear?
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Post by Aleksandr »

The poor viles were tricked by Lord Foul to despise themselves. They weren't bad in the beginning. They were dedicated to beauty and wonder, spurning the evils buried around their underground home. But if this revisionism is correct

There's no revisionism here. Even way back in Lord Foul's Bane (when Atiaran begins the tale of Berek by mentioning the wonders of his age) the Viles were presented as a "high and lofty race" with no hint that they were servants of the Despiser.
As for what they are doing way own under Mt Thunder-- caves and dark places under the Earth aren't necessarily evil. And look at what the Viles did with their caverns. Nothing ill about it at all.
As to their relationship to the Bane, I suspect they had none, and they may simply have been insensate to Her. Neither the Viles nor any of their later heirs show any trace of gender. The demiurgic power of Woman Betrayed has no reflex in their race.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Ah, thanks for the correction, Aleksandr. I can let that particular gripe go now.

However, it still seems strange to me that a high and lofty race would make their home on the doorstep of the 2nd greatest evil in all the world. But no big deal ... maybe they had a relationship with it like the Elohim had with the Worm. (And I'm still not finished, so maybe this is explained later).
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Post by Zarathustra »

Sorry for the double post, but I just realized something in what we've already read so far, but I can't put it in the appropriate thread without spoiling myself for this topic.

In chapter 3, Donaldson dropped a huge hint we've haven't mentioned yet. While talking about the Clave story concerning Diassomer Mininderain, Covenant says:
On page 47, SRD wrote:She had as much to do with making the merewives as Kastenessen's mortal lover did. And she's involved in Kevin's Dirt somehow.


And then in chapter 6 or 7 we learn that Kevin's Dirt is created by the She who lives at the bottom of the abyss. Obviously, these are the same two "creatures." And there is a fairly strong hint that this is symbolic of either Joan or Linden or both. The conversation comes up in chapter 2 right while Liand, Covenant, and Linden are talking about whether Linden's act of waking the Worm is irredeemably evil, or whether something good may come from it. And then this conversation ends with the Creator not appearing to Linden, forsaking her, because she's too evil to love.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there for some thought. I suppose we'll have to discuss it in more detail once we're through. Looking at the thread titles here, I have a feeling it has a lot to do with chapter 12.

Almost there!
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Chapter 10 - By Evil Means

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I hope I haven't driven you off Auleliel and Vraith. My earlier comment wasn't meant to silence you, just a bit of light ribbing.

and now to

Chapter 10 - By Evil Means

This was a strong chapter. The battle has ended and the company tries to regroup.

It seems Liand might be able to separate the kroyel from Jeremiah! (something nobody, even the Elohim has managed so far) I hope they'll succeed. Linden tries to do it herself but all she finds is the kroyel ghastly spirit. Will her travails never end? Her emotional upheavals are well drawn. Her rage is spent, her determination frayed and her reserves nearly spent. She cannot go on much further. But Esmer gives her a boon: he makes the mangled racecar she has of her Jeremiah as good as new, probably with his time-defying Elohim powers.

The healing of Liand reminded me of that healer we meet in tPtP, the one that heals Thomas Covenant in Morrinmoss forest by taking his wounds on herself. A horrible thought: could that old woman have been Linden, transported back to the past and bereft of memory, friends and staff? Well, that's very unlikely but it highlights the risks Linden takes by using this healing method. That woman died from the ills she took from Covenant. And Linden might have as well without the vitrim and her Staff.

Getting back to practicing healing is good for Linden. It steadies and grounds her. The description of the healing was very detailed this time. Was it this that the chapter title was referring to? The similarities of her healing abilities to the ravers' ability to posses? She seeps into his body through his wounds. This recurring plot point is not one of my favorites in these books. Violation is about doing things to you against your will, not getting initimately close to you to help you. But this is after all Linden's viewpoint, so personal bias is a given.

Esmer gives us a litany of the dooms the company faces and he reveal his ability to stop the Ardent from using his powers. Now the company is stuck in the Lost Deep with the Kroyel, the nameless She-bane and Roger and his cavewight army. What is this power he has exactly? I now think it has to do with the power not belonging to their wielders or being borrowed. The Ardent's own personal powers are intact. But the powers the other Insequent imbued him with are blocked. Maybe wielding such powers is a twisting of the Laws (that power belong to someone else) that his Elohim powers can counter, though it has been connected to his mere-powers in the past... Hmm.

The Ardent reveals what happened to the rest of the company during the last chapter. So his imminent death / madness due to the abandoning his task is why he was able to overcome the lure of the Watery Ballroom (there are consequences to the Harrow debacle. Yay!) He is now living on borrowed time and needs to fulfill the Harrow's bargain (defeating the Worm) before it's too late. This new turn seems to galvanise him.

But with Esmer blocking his powers this looks futile. The Ardent's chance to redeem himself is stolen from him. I was just starting to root for and now I'm afraid he'll turn mad from thwarted purposes.

Mahrtiir's egocentric viewpoint and, dare I say, pompous tone as he verbalizes his stream of thought for his companions throughout this chapter was the light note in this dark chapter for me. It made me chuckle and shake my head. Was this intentional I wonder or is this just my personal quirk? I know he's blind and suffering but the way he behaves I just can't take him seriously.



Edit to add - Man, this post is all over the place. I need to get some sleep. This chapter affected me more strongly than previous chapters and I postponed writing about it while I let it sink in. And even up with this. Maybe I'll edit it tomorrow.
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Post by Vraith »

No, Shoe...still following. I don't get scared away, I only get bored and walk.
Just sticking to my self-imposed rule not to mess with this thread.
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Re: Chapter 9 - Hastening Doom

Post by SleeplessOne »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Good post Z

My thoughts on Chapter 9 - Hastening Doom

This is the battle we were waiting for. In the beginning Linden loses all her remaining companions almost immediately. Things were looking bad. I hoped this would be the moment she would try to free her son from possession with the power of her love. But that doesn't happen. Instead Linden decides to break the ward Jeremiah-kroyel put on this chamber. Apparently this ward prevents Elohim and their relatives from entering or even detecting this chamber. Color me confused. Does the Harrow look like he's winning? Kroyel-Jeremiah doesn't seem susceptible to Harrow's mind-control and has power to spare and even acidic servants.

I'm with Esmer on this. Linden is a fool and a SUCK-er to think she'll be evening the score with this. The Harrow gets punched through the chest by sneaky Roger and I feel disappointed he's gone this easily. More could have been done with him.

Anyway suddenly all of Linden's companions start cropping up, even the Ardent. Another disappointment. They have all been freed off-screen somehow. I was sure it would take a gargantuan effort if it was possible at all to free the Ardent from the watery ballroom. But he's here fluttering his ribbands in Jeremiah's eyes. Another missed opportunity.

There were quite a few missed opportunities in this scene, to my mind:

- Stave tries to kick Jeremiah's head off. I expected Linden to be conflicted about it but she doesn't seem to worry for her son.

- Covenant is attacking his son Roger with the krill. Could he have lived with himself if he killed his own son? Severely injured him? We'll never know now. And the exchange between them is so paltry... They are meeting for the first time (in the flesh at least) since Roger was born. Roger apparently shaped his whole life around his father's legacy. But they just wave their weapons at each other.

- Linden could try to protect Covenant's hands with the power of her staff. Combine their powers by pouring power into his weapon. But she doesn't. Healing or protecting him or combining their efforts is an impossibility for her.

- And Esmer kidnaps Roger. So we'll have to wait for another time to have any of these meaningful exchanges between him, his father and Linden.

- The Ardent's character is not explored through the overcoming of temptation (as well as Linden's other companions)

- The Harrow and his purpose are discarded and Linden gets her staff back. This make her more capable of action but less able to develop I fear.

In general it seemed like Esmer is the top dog in this battle.

We end the chapter with the Harrow dead, Roger gone, Covenant's hands burnt to the bone, and Covenant holding the croyel at knife edge while Esmer with the demondim-spawn appear, to save the day?


Not a bad chapter but not a great one either.

What did the chapter title signify? Is it the nameless monster in the pit which all signs tell is about to appear?
Hey all,
enjoyed this thread immensley, *finally* able to read along after I picked up the book yesterday afternoon and sat up til the wee hours of the morning reading ravenously !
I've not yet made it out of the Lost Deep, the posse is on the Hazard as I speak, with She looming from below ...

Have to agree with Z that the whole Lost Deep sequence reminds the reader of LOTR's Moria escapades.

But the similarities haven't lessened my enjoyment.

An observation on the Ardent - shadowbinding shoe, you seem to believe that the Ardent should have had more difficulty than the rest of the group in breaking the magical hold of the Viles works of loveliness ..
I think he had no particular problem (no more than anyone else anyway) because the beholding of the Viles magicks wasn't an experience unique to him; the Harrow had obviously seen all these wonders before the Ardent ...

the Harrow's violent end (and reduced to an acidic pile, very much like the ur-viles he slaughtered in FR !) was a suprise, it's a testament to SRD's grasp on his story that he could assign the Harrow such a specific and plausible plan to defeat the Worm only for the Insequent to die quickly and somewhat randomly.

Like Zarathustra I found the 'reveal' of Jeremiah to be oddly written - but in fact it reminded me of some big moments in the earlier chronicles - the emphasis isn't where it should be, which is somewhat confusing and disorienting - I had to go back and read the two pages leading up to the discovery of Jeremiah just to see what the hell was going on.
However the scrambler made of rock that blocked Jeremiah's presence from the Elohim and everyone else was an important plot point that needed to be expanded upon - now we know *how* Foul/Roger/croyel can block Jeremiah's whereabouts from the more discerning powers of the Land.

My immeadiate thought when 'She' was brought to the readers attention was similar to Shadowbinding Shoe's - why had Foul bothered with the lil' old Illearth Stone when 'She' is apparently so much more potent ?
I suspect this will be cleared up at a later point.

Like both S'binding Shoe and Z, I was gratified with SRD's explanation of the Insequent's absence from the Land - the fear of the banes ...
In fact I have had a much easier time accepting the changes to the Land and it's inhabitants by this stage of the Last chronicles.

I excitedly purchased AATE - but it was excitement tinged with fear and the expectation of further disappointment. I have struggled to get into this final chronicles. With Fatal Revenant in particular I had difficulty finding joy in my ears hearing this tale ..

I am immensley relieved and content that the Last Chronicles are finally starting to excite and entice me ... I honestly doubted that would happen.
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Re: Chapter 10 - By Evil Means

Post by SleeplessOne »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I hope I haven't driven you off Auleliel and Vraith. My earlier comment wasn't meant to silence you, just a bit of light ribbing.

and now to

Chapter 10 - By Evil Means

This was a strong chapter. The battle has ended and the company tries to regroup.

It seems Liand might be able to separate the kroyel from Jeremiah! (something nobody, even the Elohim has managed so far) I hope they'll succeed. Linden tries to do it herself but all she finds is the kroyel ghastly spirit. Will her travails never end? Her emotional upheavals are well drawn. Her rage is spent, her determination frayed and her reserves nearly spent. She cannot go on much further. But Esmer gives her a boon: he makes the mangled racecar she has of her Jeremiah as good as new, probably with his time-defying Elohim powers.

The healing of Liand reminded me of that healer we meet in tPtP, the one that heals Thomas Covenant in Morrinmoss forest by taking his wounds on herself. A horrible thought: could that old woman have been Linden, transported back to the past and bereft of memory, friends and staff? Well, that's very unlikely but it highlights the risks Linden takes by using this healing method. That woman died from the ills she took from Covenant. And Linden might have as well without the vitrim and her Staff.

Getting back to practicing healing is good for Linden. It steadies and grounds her. The description of the healing was very detailed this time. Was it this that the chapter title was referring to? The similarities of her healing abilities to the ravers' ability to posses? She seeps into his body through his wounds. This recurring plot point is not one of my favorites in these books. Violation is about doing things to you against your will, not getting initimately close to you to help you. But this is after all Linden's viewpoint, so personal bias is a given.

Esmer gives us a litany of the dooms the company faces and he reveal his ability to stop the Ardent from using his powers. Now the company is stuck in the Lost Deep with the Kroyel, the nameless She-bane and Roger and his cavewight army. What is this power he has exactly? I now think it has to do with the power not belonging to their wielders or being borrowed. The Ardent's own personal powers are intact. But the powers the other Insequent imbued him with are blocked. Maybe wielding such powers is a twisting of the Laws (that power belong to someone else) that his Elohim powers can counter, though it has been connected to his mere-powers in the past... Hmm.

The Ardent reveals what happened to the rest of the company during the last chapter. So his imminent death / madness due to the abandoning his task is why he was able to overcome the lure of the Watery Ballroom (there are consequences to the Harrow debacle. Yay!) He is now living on borrowed time and needs to fulfill the Harrow's bargain (defeating the Worm) before it's too late. This new turn seems to galvanise him.

But with Esmer blocking his powers this looks futile. The Ardent's chance to redeem himself is stolen from him. I was just starting to root for and now I'm afraid he'll turn mad from thwarted purposes.

Mahrtiir's egocentric viewpoint and, dare I say, pompous tone as he verbalizes his stream of thought for his companions throughout this chapter was the light note in this dark chapter for me. It made me chuckle and shake my head. Was this intentional I wonder or is this just my personal quirk? I know he's blind and suffering but the way he behaves I just can't take him seriously.



Edit to add - Man, this post is all over the place. I need to get some sleep. This chapter affected me more strongly than previous chapters and I postponed writing about it while I let it sink in. And even up with this. Maybe I'll edit it tomorrow.
I've just finished chapter 11, it was a bit of a tough slog for me after racing through the rest of the book to that point.

I *loved* SRD's creepy, evil device of the croyel using Jeremiah to mock and goad Linden and company.
Of course that's what the whole first part of FR was all about in many ways; Roger and the croyel manipulating Jeremiah's form to cause Linden to despair.
But there was no pretense involved in 'By Evil Means', the croyel is flat-out rubbing Linden's nose in Jeremiah's predicament and the companies dire situation.
Reminded me of the Ravers in TPTP who had possessed Whane and Lal the Ramen ...

Esmer has really stitched Linden up this time too - surely his 'aid' in preventing Roger and the croyel departing was far outweighed by his many betrayals on this occasion.
The extent of his self-loathing is illustrated in grim terms in the next chapter.

Of course, his gift to Linden; the restoration of Jeremiahs crumpled toy car, will take on significance at some later point ..
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Chapter 11 - Private Carrion

Post by shadowbinding shoe »

SleeplessOne - Please state which chapter you're talking about before you start revealing things about it. The way you posted it I thought you were going to write about Chapter 9 and had a few things revealed to me before I got to read them.

I think you and Z make too much out of the similarities between Donaldson's Lost Deep and Tolkien's Moria. They're both underground and have a locked entrance but barring whole fields of possible story telling to writers just because someone else wrote something similar is going too far. Despite some similarities I didn't feel like this part of the story was a plagiarism or that it lacked it's own unique voice. What's more, it fit in Donaldson's story and made sense. There was no Tolkienesque moments put in there just because.


Chapter 11 - Private Carrion

I think this is getting me depressed. Can't anything good happen to them for a change? We trudge along endlessly with Linden, filled to the cusp with hopeless despair, beset from all sides with the reasons for that despair and escorted by two fellows who are seeing to it that despair is what is happening.

We see She who must not be named (but don't they name her? They call her Diassomer Mininderain several times. I think the word they try to avoid is actually Love. It might very well drive her mad(der) with rage) So Z was right. I didn't credit this possibility until now because the horror in the pit seemed too dark and hateful to be this fallen goddess Covenant talked about. But now that I know more about her it makes sense. She was once the goddess of Love but she has been transformed into something else: the goddess of Betrayed or perhaps Forsaken Love. Lord Foul was ruining good things since before Creation.

She swallows into herself and twists all females and destroy all males. I think I understand now why Lord Foul never used her before. Aside from the question how safe he would be from her her purposes are too mundane to be of much use to him and her will too strong to be controlled.

She, is on the move, leisurely pursuing her prey Linden Avery. Because Linden is full of tales of betrayed and forsaken love: Her relationship with her parents and her failures and futility with Covenant and Jeremiah. The Worm hungers for the Blood of the Earth and She hungers for Linden's self torment.

And now it's clear that Covenant knew this would happen. He knew Linden and her past and he knew Her. Was it the necessity of freedom that kept him quiet or simply his belief that this confrontation was inevitable?

I really hope Liand would finally release Jeremiah from his demon. That's the only thing I can think of that would shake Linden out of her hopelessness. Covenant seems to believe she can overcome this even if the experience would be horrendous. Will healing Linden's damaged heart affect this tortured goddess? The Chronicles have repeatedly shown us that things can't be undone but perhaps... there's some hope.

Esmer on the other hand toys with the idea of suicide. He offers Linden to be rid of him and his manifold betrayals by killing him with the krill. But when the giants throw him into she who must not be named's maw he escapes her. This makes his talk of suicide seem insincere. Obviously he doesn't really want to die. It was just a pose. If he dies he wants to take the world along with him. Because he'll never manage to take responsibility for his actions and condition, it's always somebody else that's to blame. We've seen this stance before actually. It's what the Ur-viles supposedly believed when they served Lord Foul in the First Chronicles. This puts his connection with the demondim-spawn in new light.
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Post by Aleksandr »

why had Foul bothered with the lil' old Illearth Stone when 'She' is apparently so much more potent ?

My guess: She is the same order of being that Foul is-- She's in his league despite being as insane as Joan, and he can't be sure he can control Her, especially since She probably has some issues with him he's rather not remind Her of. Best to let sleeping exes lie.
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Re: Chapter 11 - Private Carrion

Post by Zarathustra »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:SleeplessOne - Please state which chapter you're talking about before you start revealing things about it. The way you posted it I thought you were going to write about Chapter 9 and had a few things revealed to me before I got to read them.
Yeah, that whole pushing Esmer off the bridge thing was a few pages ahead of me. Luckily, it wasn't much of a spoiler, given what happened immediately after with Esmer transporting himself to the ledge.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:I think you and Z make too much out of the similarities between Donaldson's Lost Deep and Tolkien's Moria. They're both underground and have a locked entrance but barring whole fields of possible story telling to writers just because someone else wrote something similar is going too far. Despite some similarities I didn't feel like this part of the story was a plagiarism or that it lacked it's own unique voice. What's more, it fit in Donaldson's story and made sense. There was no Tolkienesque moments put in there just because.
I agree with all your points, which puzzles me that you say we're making too big of a deal out of the comparison. I called it a "homage," not plagiarism. Of course there are significant differences. Many aspects were done much better by Donaldson than Tolkien. Obviously, character development. If I hadn't read Bakker's Moria homage, I probably wouldn't have anything negative to say at all.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:We see She who must not be named (but don't they name her? They call her Diassomer Mininderain several times. I think the word they try to avoid is actually Love. It might very well drive her mad(der) with rage) So Z was right. I didn't credit this possibility until now because the horror in the pit seemed too dark and hateful to be this fallen goddess Covenant talked about.
I only saw it while flipping through the earlier chapters and reading that one sentence where Covenant said DM had something to do with Kevin's Dirt. So I didn't feel it was a spoiler, given that we've already read it. SRD was pretty tricky, just giving a one-sentence clue. If he hadn't done that (and if I didn't underline things while I read ... yes, I deface my brand new book :) ), I would have agreed with you.
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Reading along

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sincere apologies about the spoilers guys ! :oops:
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Chapter 12 - She Who Must Not

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Chapter 12 - She Who Must Not

This chapter took me by surprise. Covenant and Linden (I wonder what it means that I tend to use Covenant's family name while using Linden's private name. Is it that his private name is so generic? Or just copycatting the way they are referred to in the boos? Perhaps it's that Covenant is an affirmative name while Avery is one of denial, assuming it comes from avert. Checking name meanings Avery means "Elf Council." But maybe it's just that Linden is more feminine than Avery.)

Anyway, back to the point, Linden and Covenant's roles are reversed in this chapter. Linden has fled into the morass of her mind while Covenant manages to overcome Esmer's enchantment and return to consciousness to face the situation.

And instead of trying to fight She Who Must Not Be Named with wild magic (supposedly the only effective weapon against her as we've been told several times) he strives to reason with her and perhaps heal her madness. Instead of the fighter he is the healer here.

They have a conversation and Covenant offers Marriage Vows and her true name to tempt and pull her out of her madness. She responds! But she's not convinced.

She has forgotten who she was. But if she'll learn her true name (is it Love? Or maybe something like Hera? I seem to have been right about this) she will, and she might be maddened enough to destroy Mount Thunder and all that's in it.

And I was wrong about Landsdrop being caused by the Creator shoving in the Lost Deep and the Viles at the last minute under the upper Land to contain Foul's Banes. She is the reason for Landsdrop.

Covenant vows to heal her. Can he manage that? He himself highly doubt they could do more than free her from this dying world. And the way this chapter concludes only highlights his faults and shortcomings. Anele's summoned parents do not help, they throw Elena at Her as a distraction instead and Elena is swallowed by this being. My respect for them has plummeted. If achieving good by evil means is evil there's no doubt that they are evil (and despicable)

Now I suspect She will inherit Elena's knowledge of Covenant. The only way this could be worse for him was if She swallowed her mother Lena. His gambits came back and bit a chunk of his heart out of him.

Is there any hope for Her and her victims? I really hope that Elena's tale is not ended thus and Covenant has a chance to help them... somehow.

Some side issues are alluded to in the chapter: Esmer thought someone should have rescued them by now. And the kroyel had a plan involving the skurj that died in the previous chapter to get him and Esmer free. I don't really know what those things are about. Maybe this will be cleared later.

The chapter concludes with Esmer leaving the company and the Ardent taking them from this damned place. A very dark chapter.

This was the last chapter in this section "To achieve the ruin of the Earth"

I hope things will improve from now. The title of the next section "Only the Damned" give me hope that this is so.

I had a thought regarding the Ardent after the discussion about the Mines of Moria thing. Could the Ardent's character have been inspired by Baron Vladimir Harkonnen from Dune? Not only are they both overweight, they are both pleasure seekers and the Ardent's ribbands have a suspicious similarity to the Baron's anti-gravity suspensors.
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Re: Reading along

Post by shadowbinding shoe »

SleeplessOne wrote:sincere apologies about the spoilers guys ! :oops:
Well, when I read it I thought Esmer was about to die! But it turned it wasn't such a major moment as all that. Though, maybe you should still edit that post in case anybody else is reading our thread.
An observation on the Ardent - shadowbinding shoe, you seem to believe that the Ardent should have had more difficulty than the rest of the group in breaking the magical hold of the Viles works of loveliness ..
I think he had no particular problem (no more than anyone else anyway) because the beholding of the Viles magicks wasn't an experience unique to him; the Harrow had obviously seen all these wonders before the Ardent ...
He has experienced plenty of things that others also experienced. The less the merrier but he doesn't turn down any experience apparently. My impression of the Watery Ballroom was that it gave an infinite amount of variety to its experience. You couldn't cross the same watery ballroom twice. That the details of it, like fractals, had no end.

But on closer examination of the Ardent's character I suspect I was wrong about him. He does not revel in experiencing the sensations themselves. He revels in having gained them. He's a professional collector in other words. If his experiences were books he would be the kind of guy that pays exorbitant prices to buy these rare books and then puts them in his bookcase. His enjoyment comes from having an impressive bookcase instead of from reading good books.
the Harrow's violent end (and reduced to an acidic pile, very much like the ur-viles he slaughtered in FR !) was a suprise, it's a testament to SRD's grasp on his story that he could assign the Harrow such a specific and plausible plan to defeat the Worm only for the Insequent to die quickly and somewhat randomly.
In retrospect I think I agree with this. Some plot threads were cut short when he died (mainly Linden's position of powerlessness) but it enabled the Ardent's character to grow in new directions. Now that he's gone, I don't really miss him.
I excitedly purchased AATE - but it was excitement tinged with fear and the expectation of further disappointment. I have struggled to get into this final chronicles. With Fatal Revenant in particular I had difficulty finding joy in my ears hearing this tale ..

I am immensley relieved and content that the Last Chronicles are finally starting to excite and entice me ... I honestly doubted that would happen.
Really? For me Fatal Revenant was a very good book. Runes of the Earth was pretty boring from the point Linden entered the Land til the end but Fatal Revenant was well written for the most part. Almost all the side characters were bland and shallow but Linden's character was superbly written.
Zarathustra wrote:I agree with all your points, which puzzles me that you say we're making too big of a deal out of the comparison. I called it a "homage," not plagiarism. Of course there are significant differences. Many aspects were done much better by Donaldson than Tolkien. Obviously, character development. If I hadn't read Bakker's Moria homage, I probably wouldn't have anything negative to say at all.
OK. Sorry for the misrepresentation. Plagiarism was too strong a word. Maybe it's just that it didn't remind me of Tolkien, except maybe Esmer momentary fall from the bridge. Haven't read Bakker. I've heard some good things about him but on the other hand people are not very enthusiastic about his first novel. Any advice?
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Re: Chapter 9 - Hastening Doom

Post by Zarathustra »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
My thoughts on Chapter 9 - Hastening Doom

Apparently this ward prevents Elohim and their relatives from entering or even detecting this chamber. Color me confused.
Me too. How is it possible to trick the all-knowing Elohim so easily?
shadowbinding shoe wrote:There were quite a few missed opportunities in this scene, to my mind:
...
- Covenant is attacking his son Roger ... the exchange between them is so paltry... They are meeting for the first time (in the flesh at least) since Roger was born. Roger apparently shaped his whole life around his father's legacy. But they just wave their weapons at each other.
VERY disappointing, as well as the petulant dialog.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:The Ardent's character is not explored through the overcoming of temptation (as well as Linden's other companions)
Interesting. I'm not sure how an opportunity for this would have cropped up under the mountain, but I'd like to see that character development myself.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:Not a bad chapter but not a great one either.
And that's the problem. It should have been absolutely amazing. Linden finally finding her son, and Covenant finally confronting his. This should have been THE best scene in all the Chronicles so far.
The healing of Liand reminded me of that healer we meet in tPtP, the one that heals Thomas Covenant in Morrinmoss forest by taking his wounds on herself.
Me too! That's exactly what I was thinking. It must have been intentional.
Esmer gives us a litany of the dooms the company faces ...
That's a polite way to put it. "Everything but the kitchen sink" is what I was thinking. Just like that battle in the second half of FR. Throwing everything together like that completely destroys my sense of danger, and just becomes tedious. It seems so hopeless, I stop hoping and just wonder when the deus ex machina is going to happen.
sleepless one wrote:... now we know *how* Foul/Roger/croyel can block Jeremiah's whereabouts from the more discerning powers of the Land.
Do we? Can you explain it to me? :lol:
sleepless one wrote:My guess: She is the same order of being that Foul is-- She's in his league despite being as insane as Joan, and he can't be sure he can control Her, especially since She probably has some issues with him he's rather not remind Her of. Best to let sleeping exes lie.
I think it's like this: Lord Foul is the personfication of Covenant's "dark side," and SWMNBN is the personification of Linden's (or Joan's or both) "dark side." So yes, on the same order.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:Anele's summoned parents do not help, they throw Elena at Her as a distraction instead and Elena is swallowed by this being. My respect for them has plummeted. If achieving good by evil means is evil there's no doubt that they are evil (and despicable)
Exactly. I was very disappointed by their behavior. And why couldn't Elena just flee like they did? This whole scene really bothered me. The whole, "wait ... wait ... wait for it," had me expecting something really cool was about to happen. But they escaped by Covenant pointing out to Esmer something that Esmer should have already figured out on his own: She would get the ring. This scene was a bigger let-down than everything that has gone before. It was anti-climatic, poorly paced, inexplicably cruel, and way too easy.

I'm struggling to find good things to say. I don't want to simply gripe the whole time. So I'll add this: the contrast between Covenant's chapters and Linden's chapters really show off Donaldson's mastery of narrative voice. The same scenes described in very similar language are still so unique to each character, seeing them side-by-side reveals a level of writing that usually goes unnoticed. Linden's self-doubt and self-incrimination seen through Covenant's compassionate eyes is very touching. When Covenant feels sorry for her, I feel sorry for her (something that I don't feel when Linden's POV is the narrative voice). Despite the characters sharing so much history and having almost exactly the same goals, they are very different characters who perfectly compliment each other. It's really a shame that most of this is written from Linden's POV. She is so much more sympathetic seen through TC's eyes. I think she's a great character, but she's even better when she's not the main character.
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Post by Zarathustra »

A couple more thoughts ...

Chapter 10: By Evil Means.

Donaldson repeats something from Runes: Linden would have fled with Jeremiah if the Creator had not forsaken her. This is an interesting time to repeat such a "betrayal," when we're getting ready to deal with SWMNBN, a quintessentially Betrayed Woman. The parallels are far from subtle.

When describing how Linden heals Liand, Donaldson compares it to how she "healed" the Sunbane. I had forgotten that Linden did not overpower the Sunbane, but quenched it by taking it into herself. Interesting. I suppose we're seeing the consequences of that now.

Kevin's Dirt is the reason Linden can't disentangle the croyel from Jeremiah. I wonder if this is more than a plot point, but also a symbolic point? Does Linden's own ire and pain interfere with her abilities and persipience?


Chapter 11: Private Carrion

The slowly-approaching-monster-that-could-catch-them-any-time-it-wished plot device is just maddening. And not in a good way. It reminds me of bad guys in action movies who sit around telling the hero about their evil plan, providing the delay necessary for some form of rescue to happen. Rather than dragging out the suspense, it just kills it.

I’m annoyed that the giants have been reduced to talking steeds. They even brag about the fact that, "No being who survives to hear our tale will say that we did not run." Yes, Grueburn, you're absolutely right. And that's all they'll say about you. :roll:

It bugs me to think about a giant carrying Jeremiah + croyal, and then also carrying a tiny knife (in her hands at least) up to the croyal’s throat, and yet still able to squeeze through small caverns--sometimes on all fours--while a giant bane is chasing them. Slowly. This just seems too implausible and difficult to imagine, it grates against my suspension of disblief. The giant can actually hold that tiny knife unwavering through all that? And do so in such a way that the croyel never has an opportunity to take advantage of all this distraction? All it would take is a split second. Come on. When did the croyel become such an impotent enemy that it could be carried around like sock puppet?

I like that Linden is being driven closer to Joan's madness. This is a comparison that had to happen. I also liked the fact that Linden isn't done with the legacy of darkness from her parents. That still haunts her. And I liked the brief Conqueror Worm short story reference (page 220, centipede crawling between her legs). And then the chapter ends with another instance of Linden's classic paralysis. Again, something about this just feels right, like it had to happen.

Chapter 12: She Who Must Not.

Up until the end, this was the best chapter in the whole Lost Deep sequence. I like how it started with memories of ur-viles, and linked their self-disgust with the pain of SWMN. Does this imply hope for Her? The fact that these creatures could learn to rethink their self-disgust?

On a related note, I hate how Roger and Joan are thought to be lost causes (p.229). Covenant seems to have more hope for SWMN than his own ex-wife and son. I expected more compassion from him. And, curiously, this lack of compassion seems to extend toward Elena as well ... which, by the end of the chapter, is manifested dramatically.

I think this chapter gives us a major hint for the end of the Last Chronicles:
On page 235, SRD wrote:"Let us go. We'll set you free."

Some promises were too terrible to be kept. This was one. Nonethless he prayed that he was tellnig the truth. Beyond question, the destruction of the Arch of Time would release She Who Must Not Be Named. But he doubted that the ruin of creation would relieve Her plight. She needed something more than mere devastation. Her torment would continue until the Despiser's evil had been answered. Until She learned to love again, and forgive.
Here we are led to expect more than mere destruction. The Despiser's evil had to be answered. She must love again, and forgive. This points to both Linden and Joan. Covenant must find some healing for both. Joan needs to be set free, and Linden needs to learn how to forgive.

The necessity of SWMN's forgetting (as Stave insists) seems eerily similar to Joan's catatonic state in the real world. Why must she forget--or remain in "stasis"? Because she'll bring total destruction otherwise.

As I said above, I couldn't stand the end. I'm glad that Donaldson isn't done with Elena, and compressing her fate with the other women who need healing, but it was still a very weak ending to the first half of the book.
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Post by caamora »

I've been lurking but I think I will join in now.

I'm still in Chapter 8 but I must say, I'm happy SRD took Linden's power away. Now she is forced to use her wits rather than just run around full of power doing stupid shit! lol!

I will do my best to catch up!
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

I've given in to the lure and read both of the first chapters in the second part. So I'll be posting my impressions from both of them tomorrow.
caamora wrote: I've been lurking but I think I will join in now.

I'm still in Chapter 8 but I must say, I'm happy SRD took Linden's power away. Now she is forced to use her wits rather than just run around full of power doing stupid shit! lol!

I will do my best to catch up!
Hey caamora. :D I'll be looking forward to hearing from you. Feel free to post your thoughts on what you've read so far if you like.

I had similar thoughts about Linden new position at that point.
Zarathustra wrote:Me too. How is it possible to trick the all-knowing Elohim so easily?
Actually that wasn't what I meant there. We already know Jeremiah can attack the Elohim at their weak point. If he can build a construct that would lure and trap all Elohim into it he can build it's opposite: something which would repel them from a place physically, mentally and perceptually. (haven't thought about the parallels until now)

What I was confused about was why Linden felt Jeremiah and his allies needed any help against the Harrow. He seemed to be badly losing as far as I was concerned.
Spoiler
Though the Ardent seems to say his death was so unlikely it defied prediction
Zarathustra wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:There were quite a few missed opportunities in this scene, to my mind:
...
- Covenant is attacking his son Roger ... the exchange between them is so paltry... They are meeting for the first time (in the flesh at least) since Roger was born. Roger apparently shaped his whole life around his father's legacy. But they just wave their weapons at each other.
VERY disappointing, as well as the petulant dialog.
Not a bad chapter but not a great one either.
And that's the problem. It should have been absolutely amazing. Linden finally finding her son, and Covenant finally confronting his. This should have been THE best scene in all the Chronicles so far.

Yes, yes and yes! This is why I was joyous at the change of tone when the next half of the book starts. There was way too little attention on the characters and way too much on the travelogue of doom.

Haven't thought of Linden's, quite obvious in hindsight, lack of interaction with her son. She at least has the excuse of the kroyel But Roger and his father have no such excuse.
On a related note, I hate how Roger and Joan are thought to be lost causes (p.229). Covenant seems to have more hope for SWMN than his own ex-wife and son. I expected more compassion from him. And, curiously, this lack of compassion seems to extend toward Elena as well ... which, by the end of the chapter, is manifested dramatically.
I've been thinking about the well accepted axiom that leaders tend to be neglectful or bad parents. He gives himself to others in the expense of his own family. (and that they tend to have younger lovers that are drawn to them by their charisma)

Covenant is a great man but maybe we should remember he's also human and can have human failings. Getting infected with leprosy and being shunned by his neighbors was bad enough but getting abandoned by his wife and kid as well just when he was at his absolute lowpoint was even worse. Covenant swallows his anger and resentment and even tends to his wife out of a sense of obligation when she is possessed but I don't think those things weren't there under the surface and we see them realized here in his stance toward Joan and Roger. They are just bad people.

In his relationship with Elena there was a lot of selfishness on his part. He wanted to enjoy the twisted romantic feelings but couldn't take role of father. Maybe it wasn't in him to give, he had never been a father to anybody at this point. And it would have acknowledged his responsibility toward her. Instead he let her try to fill the parent role.


The Ardent's character is not explored through the overcoming of temptation (as well as Linden's other companions)
Interesting. I'm not sure how an opportunity for this would have cropped up under the mountain, but I'd like to see that character development myself.
Well it's too late for that now. He does get character development in the following chapters but it is not about his Insequent nature or his own personal unique nature but bout universal characteristics like courage and endurance.

In freeing him from a lure like the Water Ballroom perhaps Linden would have possessed him and interacted with him on a spiritual level where no secrets could stand. Or being rescued, he would in his shock talk about himself and his nature.

For example it seems to me creatures like Insequent would by nature be asocial creatures. Becoming a part of the group would be a giant step for him, like the one Stave goes through at the end of RotE.
Esmer gives us a litany of the dooms the company faces ...
That's a polite way to put it. "Everything but the kitchen sink" is what I was thinking. Just like that battle in the second half of FR. Throwing everything together like that completely destroys my sense of danger, and just becomes tedious. It seems so hopeless, I stop hoping and just wonder when the deus ex machina is going to happen.
That made me laugh. Still not as bad as the kitchen sink battle but still over the top.
Here we are led to expect more than mere destruction. The Despiser's evil had to be answered. She must love again, and forgive. This points to both Linden and Joan. Covenant must find some healing for both. Joan needs to be set free, and Linden needs to learn how to forgive.

As I said above, I couldn't stand the end. I'm glad that Donaldson isn't done with Elena, and compressing her fate with the other women who need healing, but it was still a very weak ending to the first half of the book.
I wonder how feasible that is. And let us not forget Lena as well. Will Donaldson touch her? She's the most difficult of the group.

Covenant presented his wedding ring as the symbol of fidelity in love to SWMNBN but his loyalty was flawed. He betrayed it on Lena and his affair with Linden shows that his love is not everlasting but can be withdrawn and given to another. (and it comes from a world where it has been endlessly tarnished time without end) Would She consider such love and its symbols true everlasting love?

If she is the Platonic Idea of Love, having been transformed into an Idea of Betrayed Love shouldn't all love in the world be likewise flawed, the torn idea of true love impossible to achieve? Can something exist when its Idea is destroyed? But maybe that is what happened.
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Post by Hiro »

Great posts and thoughts everybody!
What I was confused about was why Linden felt Jeremiah and his allies needed any help against the Harrow. He seemed to be badly losing as far as I was concerned.

Spoiler:
Spoiler
Though the Ardent seems to say his death was so unlikely it defied prediction
This made me think about why SRD would have chosen such an end for the Harrow. The only reason I can think of now, is to show the danger of arrogance. The Harrow has overreached and overestimated himself, and underestimated others.
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Post by Zarathustra »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:If he can build a construct that would lure and trap all Elohim into it he can build it's opposite: something which would repel them from a place physically, mentally and perceptually. (haven't thought about the parallels until now)
Good point. I hadn't thought about that either. Makes sense.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:And let us not forget Lena as well.
I forgot about her! She is conspicuously missing from the Dead. I bet she'll make an appearance in the last book.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:If she is the Platonic Idea of Love, having been transformed into an Idea of Betrayed Love shouldn't all love in the world be likewise flawed, the torn idea of true love impossible to achieve? Can something exist when its Idea is destroyed? But maybe that is what happened.
Wow. Another amazing insight.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:Yes, yes and yes! This is why I was joyous at the change of tone when the next half of the book starts. There was way too little attention on the characters and way too much on the travelogue of doom.
Great way to put it. I'm almost done with the first chapter of the second half, and I agree that it's much better when Donaldson focuses on the characters. These moments when he lets the story "breathe" are the heart of the book for me.
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