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Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Part 2 - chapter 1: Those who Endure--

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We have finished the first half of the book and are now starting the second half of it called "Only the Damned" - a line from Covenant's post Land Ethics book.

Part 2 - chapter 1: Those who Endure--

And in this chapter, told from Covenant's perspective we get another quote from the past. A ditty all the way back from the first chapter of Lord Foul's Bane! :cheers: An optimistic song about about imperfections, parenthood and possibilities.

We are now back on the surface and out of immediate danger. The Ardent took the company to a barren spot in the lower Land outside the reach of Kevin's Dirt.

This is an introspective chapter, a wonderful one. Because this is Donaldson's strong-point. Covenant has just seen his faery daughter consumed and damned for eternity. Mhartir tries to rub salt into his wounds with it, telling to his face that he never tried to succor his daughter. But Covenant is already feeling guilty as hell. Mahrtir's needling do not affect him. He is at the end of his rope. He can't imagine going on if he won't manage to save at least Linden from her self-induced catatonia.

Throughout this chapter I felt that this time, Covenant is finally filling the role of a father.

He is honest and without pride and even confesses his love to Linden.

Covenant gives us some interesting observations, chiefly that becoming catatonic like Linden and Jeremiah is not a surrender in his eyes but a tactical retreat and that having endured such a thing you return changed, stronger and stranger than you were before and you're aware on some level of what happened to you while you were unconscious.

This explains his more coherent thought processes having overcome Esmer's trick in the previous chapter. I'm not sure how the previous instances of catatonia fit this idea. Covenant went through a long one because of the Elohim in The One Tree and Linden through two short ones, once in Revelstone in The Wounded Land and then at the end of White Gold Wielder, maybe, when she was possessed by a raver.

The Ardent talks about water being important, the deluge under Mount Thunder erasing all predictions of the future, fate being writ in water. And in addition all of the company baptize in a nearby stream. Covenant's method to waken Linden is an extreme form of baptization: keeping her underwater for as long as he can in the deep pool in the stream.
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Part 2 - chapters 1-3 (first half)

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Sorry I haven't posted the last few days. I'll try not to let that happen again.

Last post I don't think I made it clear what it was that drew me to this chapter and made it so great for me.

I should note that the first and second chapters worked really well together.

II-1: Those Who Endure--

I said in the last post that in this chapter Covenant is a father. That seems strange on the face of it because he is now a mortal like the rest of the company, with most of his superhuman knowledge slipping from him and having very little power compared to others: He hasn't used his ring in the last chapter, doesn't see it as belonging to him, and can't hold the krill without burning his hands away or use it beyond the most crude and mundane level possible. What's more, he is Linden's love, not her father and his two children Roger and Elena are gone from him and had very little fathering from him until now. Roger Wasn't someone Covenant has yearned for. It was his wife Joan that was important to him. If he gave him anything it was his absence. As for Elena, she was more a (sinful) romantic interest to him than a daughter.

So why a father figure now? And yet from the very beginning we get (in second paragraph):
His mind was still full of shrieks and fire and torrents: his heart was woe. Whenever he looked at Linden's slack face, he saw Elena's unassoiled horror, pursued by She Who Must Not Be Named. He did not know how to lament for his daughter.
Linden is superimposed on Elena. Elena whom he failed on so many levels. And we should note that Covenant's care for Linden is pretty platonic. Two paragraphs further along we are reminded of his leprosy and the resulting lack of bodily sensations:
It was filthy, soiled with sweat and grime and dust. [...] But the state of her hair made no difference to him. His hand were too numb to feel it.
Linden is held in his arms like his child.

And then a confrontation with Mahrtir occurs. Mahrtir accuses him about his relationship with Elena and Covenant accepts all the responsibility on himself. And after that Mahrtir accepts him and draws close to him. Is it that he sees a similarities of roles between them? The role of father?


The landscape in this chapter is an obvious example of the theme Zarathustra's mentioned where the surroundings reflect the inner world of the character. Here (first paragraph)
Holding Linden against him, Thomas Covenant sat leaning on a boulder half buried in the sandy bottom of a shallow gully. Most of the terrain around him looked barren, stripped of vegetation by thirst and ancient misuse. But a few stunted trees, twisted as cripples, still gripped the edges of the gully. Here and there, tufts of bitter grass clung to some scant source of moisture. He hoped for aliantha, but he had not seen any.
Covenant is numb and with little hope. Scarred by the horrors he experienced under Mount Thunder and does not expect any miracles to save him now.

If water is hope and renewal (and Linden who is those things is repeatedly symbolized and connected to water) finding the stream and washing in it represents the return of those things after the travails and despair of the recent past.

There is an interesting contrasting of Covenant and his son Roger's motivations. Roger desires (according to Covenant) to become like a God and uses the supernatural powers he received with his fire-hand whenever he can. croyel-Jeremiah's powers are his key to achieving this goal.

Covenant on the other hand muses in page 253 (I'm using the American Putnam edition) that
Hellfire, he muttered in silence. No wonder only people like Roger and creatures like croyel wanted to be gods. The sheer impotence of that state would appall a chunk of basalt--if the basalt happened to care about anything except itself. Absolute power was as bad as powerlessness for anybody who valued someone else's peace or happiness or even survival. The Creator would only make or destroy worlds: he could not rule them, nurture them, assist them. He was simply too strong to express himself within the constraints of Time.

By that standard, forgetfulness was Covenant's only real hope. No matter how badly he wanted to remember, he needed his specific form of ignorance; absolutely required it. Nothing less would prevent him from violating the necessity of freedom
He spurns great power and knowledge because they would interfere with his ability to help others. He spurns the use of his Wild Magic powers. He doesn't want to be a leader. He wants to be a parent.

And when he confesses his feelings to Linden (page 255) he is very human.

II-2: Trying to Start Again

This chapter is told from Linden's perspective, newly awakened after her experience in the pool. The way she was shaken out of her catatonia wasn't exactly the way I expected it. Being submerged underwater was about creating a similar situation to her inner sensations of drowning within SWMNBN and the waters she inhabits and reminding her of her body's existence (through air deprivation). The baptism-like ritual I spoke about in my previous post was off the mark, or at least partial.

The joy at the return of health and life was well written. To live again! Not everyone knows the feeling but Linden brimming with it here and now.

And it seems Covenant's confession in the previous chapter has indeed been heard by her because she immediately embraces Covenant. If I said His love to her is platonic her definitely isn't.

(pages 283-284)
"She would have clung to him if she could [...] Her rescued heart ached to throw her arms around him. Hugging him would not fill Jeremiah's place in her clasp, or in her love. But she was a woman who needed to touch and embrace. She yearned for the comfort of contact. And Covenant had saved her: she believed that. In his arms, she might begin to recover from her participation in She Who Must Not Be Named.
In a burst of grief and longing, Linden pitched forward. As she fell onto Covenant, she wrapped her arms around him. Her embrace closed as though she had been starving for the touch of his body on hers; and her weight drove both of them underwater.
[...]
His vacancy hurt her. Of course it hurt her. Lost as he was, he could not reply to her clasp. Parts of him were too numb to recognize her. Nevertheless she clung to him as though he were the rock to which she had anchored her own life, and Jeremiah's, and the Land's.
And as she held him, a spark of silver fire gleamed briefly where her breasts met his chest. It seemed to shine through her damaged shirt until it filled his face, and hers, with argent possibilities. Then it vanished.
Wild magic. Only a hint, but--wild magic
With a palpable wrench that nearly drove the breath from her lungs, Covenant returned to himself and began to struggle.
And does this last part means that Wild Magic is motivated and powered by love? Mhoram's thoughts about it in TPtP come to mind.

But Covenant rejects her embraces
Before she moved, however, she saw a quick flaring of alarm in his eyes. He raised his hands to ward her away; stumbled backward. "Don't touch me." Some private conflict undermined hum: she felt its emanations He was barely able to make himself heard over the fretted susurration of the current. Linden, please. I'm not ready. I've lost too much of myself. I'm afraid of what I'm becoming. Or what I might have to be. I need to find that out before--" His voice faded. Pain burred his gaze. The muscles of his jaw clenched. Obviously forcing himself, he finished, "Just don't touch me. There's too much at stake.
Is it that the loss of Elena is too raw for him? It doesn't really fit his words. Or that he considers himself too disfigured? Or appalled at what he caused? Or maybe I was right about his platonic feelings or he's simply still too unused to having a physical body.

Whatever it is, Linden sees it as rejection. And it devastates her. She lost too much of her confidence in herself and her feelings of self worth to handle it.

I was hoping her companions would tell her about what happened to Elena so she would ascribe Covenant's rejection of her to his pain over that but they decide not to tell her and she founders on as she is.

She gathers the tatters of her pride and sends Covenant and Stave away keeping only Pahni with her. Because she s female? Or is driven by her love for Liand?



<I'll post the rest tomorrow morning.>

II-3: --Whatever the Cost
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Part 2 - chapters 1-3 (second half)

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I haven't responded to these:
Hiro wrote:This made me think about why SRD would have chosen such an end for the Harrow. The only reason I can think of now, is to show the danger of arrogance. The Harrow has overreached and overestimated himself, and underestimated others.
Yes, very true.
Zarathustra wrote:I forgot about her! She is conspicuously missing from the Dead. I bet she'll make an appearance in the last book.
Heh heh. I'm pretty sure this was intentional on Donaldson's part because throughout this and the previous Chronicle she has been very much sidelined and ignored. The tale concentrates on highlighting Covenant's virtues and this mar would have overshadowed that if given attention. She only appears one time in the last 6 books, along with her parents when they urge Covenant along his rescue mission of the kidnapped Linden in the Wounded Land. They were not inclined to forgiveness then.
Great way to put it. I'm almost done with the first chapter of the second half, and I agree that it's much better when Donaldson focuses on the characters. These moments when he lets the story "breathe" are the heart of the book for me.
Thanks for all the compliments. Please post your own responses. They were very good.

II-2: Trying to Start Again

In the previous chapter the Ardent promised he would aid the company one last time before he perished. He returns in this chapter to fulfill his promise by bringing the company food and supplies to last them until the end of days. This was nothing like what I expected when I read his promise. I expected some magical artifact or aid during a hopeless and dire battle but I guess it fits his chosen obssession quite well. The first chapter was about getting water and this one about food. It reminds me of the scene in the Never Ending Story book where the hero stops his adventure to go to the loo. It's the invisible elephant in the story trumpeting his presence for us. But I don't begrudge Donaldson this deviation from Epic's norms. What can I say, I liked it. We need more lighthearted moments in this story, not less!

Before his end, the Ardent responds to Linden's questions with

(page 298)
"But if you will accept mere speculation--" He sighed again. "Lady, I have observed that your true strength lies in neither the Staff of Law nor in white gold. Rather it lies in the force of self which attracts aid and allies wherever you are, even from among a-Jeroth's former servants. You inspired the Mahdoubt's devoir as you did mine, and that of the Demondim-spawn as well. You do not have such friends"--he gestured around him--"because you wield magics, but rather because you are Linden Avery the Chosen.
"This power defies both augury and foresight. Assuredly it surpasses the cunning of a-Jeroth, who knows no fealty which is not derived from possession or other mastery."
This struck me as false. Would any of her companions have flocked to her and helped her if she wasn't an otherworldly being with great power and knowledge who could save and elevate them? The Mahdoubt yes and Covenant as well of course, but all the others are there because of her role as savior. In this very chapter it is Covenant and not Linden that tries to help the Ardent. He is the one with the giving heart. Linden is the one with the hoarding heart.

The company has a hasty 'Giantclave' to decide what to do next. They talk about the various dangers they face and Covenant seems to be purposely obtuse and unhelpful when asked for advice. It's not just his decaying memory. There are hints he's hiding thing he knows. The necessity of freedom is at work again. But Linden cuts through the chaff and declares that freeing Jeremiah from the croyel comes first.

She's thinking of doing it with her white gold ring using her unobstructed health sense. Well this is totally ignoring all the talk about how her strength is in her friends and all the hints about Liand's importance against the croyel.

Is it that she wants to spare him the danger or that she wants to do it herself? I think it is more the later than the former.

Covenant vocally supports her but Linden suspects

(page 310)
Linden recognized an undercurrent in his voice; a hint of complex intentions or desires. An ulterior motive? A specific hope or need which he kept to himself?
There's more than the necessity for freedom at work here I think. Covenant wants to achieve some goal that the others might not approve. I haven't really thought when I read it what it might be and maybe chapter 3 pushes to think this but I'm now thinking what he hopes to get is a confrontation with his former wife Joan.

Covenant tells us her location is not that hard to figure out, that it's somewhere nearby in the lower Land and that using wild magic will draw her attention. Is he thinking of confronting the problem that started it all?

II-3: --Whatever the Cost

Nooo! Liand is dead. Apparently for nothing! :x

In this chapter Linden tries to save Jeremiah. And she botches it up good. Real good. She may have a lot of friends and they all (except maybe the Humbled) are eagerly at her command. But if Linden is their leader she's a bloody poor one. Her foresight and strategic skills are so piss poor in this scene it's not even funny.

The scene in Jeremiah's mindscape was good. That is to say, it was horribly well written. Donaldson is fiendishly good at conjuring up ever new and more appalling horrors that would squeeze tears from a chunk of granite.

Jeremiah's soul is an ever desecrated graveyard of jeremiah's memories, I think. But they must be connected into a whole on some level. For how else could his conjured ghosts be coherent otherwise?

Since we've talked about Tolkien analogies regarding the Lost Deep, does the croyel with his pervading webs and darkness fit Ungoliant the evil spider that helps Melkor extinguish the light from the world, feeding on the Trees of Valinor?

I had forgotten the vision the ranyhyn gave Linden about Jeremiah. That he would become like the Despiser if she tried to heal him in her usual method. This time it's about possession, no question about it. Because if she'll destroy his defenses with her Staff to mend him he would be utterly bereft of any secrets, his lifework for all these years destroyed.

For some reason it's not just the ranyhym that warned her. The runes Caerroil Wildwood craved on her Staff also make her see this. I have no idea why.

So Linden Threatens to kill the croyel with the ring if he doesn't let him go. And like in a hostage situation the croyel stops her with the threat that he wouldn't only desecrate Jeremiah's memories, he would utterly destroy them. Linden can't face the risk and gives up.

But why didn't she just do it? Giving him time to make counter-threats makes no sense. The less time he has to respond the better her and Jeremiah's chances are.

And why did she need the ring to kill it? Isn't fighting unnatural evils what the Staff is for? But because she used the ring Joan notices them and starts throwing caesures at them.

Now finally Liand tries to help with his orcrest. Linden is annoyed with him for giving a speech but seeing how she handled Jeremiah's plight I can't blame him, and with the prophecies of doom hanging over his head maybe he needed to say some final words to his love Phani and to Linden who gave meaning to his life. Linden certainly didn't give him any chance to say them until now. Besides, surely she should know she inhabits a Stephen R. Donaldson book where brevity is not an option?

Orcrest can heal spiritual wounds and the croyel is terrified of the prospect. But Liand doesn't get the chance to heal Jeremiah. Joan is aware of their location and hurdles three ceasures at them and then Anele falls and gets possessed by Kestenessen!

Liand's end at Anele's hand was terrible. The phrase 'such a waste' comes to mind. He was one of the better characters and now he's gone. Donaldson has really shocked me this time.

Will Anele now try to heal Jeremiah with the stone he saved? Things are looking bleaker than ever to the company.
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Post by caamora »

You guys are still a little ahead of me but I started part 2 last night and I am very happy to see Covenant again. I agree that this is Donaldson's talent - the introspection. I am especially happy to see it from TC's pov. I got a little sick of seeing everything from Linden's pov. I personally think TC is much more interesting.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

caamora wrote:You guys are still a little ahead of me but I started part 2 last night and I am very happy to see Covenant again. I agree that this is Donaldson's talent - the introspection. I am especially happy to see it from TC's pov. I got a little sick of seeing everything from Linden's pov. I personally think TC is much more interesting.
You don't have to wait until you reach where we are. I'll be glad to see your opinions on the previous chapters. Getting more perspectives is all for the good. I'll be careful not to reveal things you haven't read yet in responses to you.
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Post by caamora »

Is it me or does it seem that Stave is in love with Linden?
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Part 2 - chapter 4: Attempts Must Be Made

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caamora wrote:Is it me or does it seem that Stave is in love with Linden?
Really? I thought that about Liand but not Stave. Stave is of course more mature and reticent so it's harder to be sure. But if he has children somewhere he probably also has a wife as well?

But thinking about it, I'd have to say he's in love with the ranyhyn, not Linden. You'd say "But they're a different species!" but since reading the second chronicles it became clear to me that though they look similar they're not the same species as the people of the Land, our closest parallels in this world. Just like the giants are not just big people with long lives(*).


Part 2 - chapter 4: Attempts Must Be Made

I don't have a lot to say about this chapter.

To me, this was Phani's chapter. I remember how reading Fatal Revenant I didn't think much of the budding love-affair between her and Liand. It seemed superficial and in the way. Put in just to give a distinguishing feature to the female ramen and give sweet Liand some sweet loving. It also interfered with my idea for a love rivalry between Liand and Covenant (and Stave? lol) over Linden. But reading this chapter I had to acknowledge how far her character and her love to Liand had gone.

She is the ordinary woman with the ordinary love that doesn't get any special treatment. Unlike Sunder and Hollian or Linden and Covenant of course, or even Jeremiah, Phani is refused. I think if Linden really wanted she could have brought him back to life. She says it's impossible but she doesn't even try. (She could create a well timed cesure perhaps, or simply summon his spirit and then revive him like she did with Covenant)

We know she fears her own powers and the darkness within her now but in any case she doesn't and Phani has to live with her grief.

Phani is strong and helps others even when everything tastes like ashes to her. I started out indifferent to her, then annoyed at her obsessiveness but now I really like her.

beside Phani, it was interesting to learn the various burial and mourning customs of the different peoples of the earth. Another delving into the ordinary life. I like that.






(*) It was their laughter that made me see them as a bit alien to ourselves. Saltheart Foamfollower always laughed when grief was expected. It wasn't our kind of laughter I decided. This last chronicle made me rethink this stance a bit; maybe it was just that Covenant never gave his friend Foamfollower anything but heartache and sorrow to give his laughter to and maybe it is just that they have a different philosophy of life about always seeing the good side of things no matter how bad they seem but it's still the way I think of them.
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Part 2 - chapter 5: Inheritances

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Part 2 - chapter 5: Inheritances

This was an action packed chapter. Everything is coming to a head. The company gathers to witness the cairn the giants built for Liand. I have to admit that that cairn surprised me with its size. I assumed a grave proportional to a man's body but this was a monument sized for giants and the giants even wanted to resculpt the surrounding landscape to fit! Somehow that doesn't seem to fit Liand character for me. He was a humble sort of man, idealistic and full of heart. I would picture his grave as small and full of life. Perhaps arranging the stones in the shape of a flower.

Anyway as soon as everyone saw the cairn, the giant are ready to discuss business. I expected to hear some last words, to see Pahni's reactions, but we get none of that.

The Masters talk about the need to kill the kroyel and everyone shouts them down. But I have to agree with these haruchai. I'll get back to that later.

In any case Roger appears with a horde of barbarians, that is, Cavewights and tries to annihilate the company, Anele and his orcrest in particular.

Anele does what Liand failed to do, he frees Jeremiah from the kroyel but in the process expends all his earthpower and dies. His guard Galt dies as well to protect Jeremiah and Anele from a flying axe. And the demondim-spawn appear in pursuit of Esmer and prevent him from rescuing the croyel by cuffing him with the handcuffs we heard about.

So the croyel and Esmer are respectively destroyed and neutralized. And Jeremiah is finally free to be himself, assuming he can win free of his catatonia and that his connection to Lord Foul is gone as well.

But the price was horrible. Liand dead, Anele dying, SWMNBN wakened and Elena consumed, Galt dead as well and the dire purposes of Anele's gifts and the Ur-Viles manacles wasted on side-issues.

Linden loves her son, but did all these people deserve to die and be bereft of meaning for her sake? He might very possibly build impossible wonders that would validate the price paid for his freedom but that's not why Linden pushed everyone into saving him. The argument before the battle where the humbled say the ranyhym don't deserve to be forced to carry a kroyel on their back is a perfect example. Of course the ranyhym would consent to it. Their heart is too great to refuse Linden, but is it right to ask it of them in the first place? Some things should not be asked.

The chapter ends on a precarious note. On the one hand they won great victory: Jeremiah is finally free and Esmer might be now changed for the better or at least no longer a hindrance but Roger and his cavewight horde remains around them and Joan is readying more caesures to strike them with and maybe just maybe someone will find the time to snatch Anele's from death's clutches. I can't wait to read the next chapter tomorrow.

There is a pattern here. First Covenant uses his white ring as a symbol of marital fidelity instead of using its magical powers, then the Ardent spends his last hours giving them the gift of food instead of something more extraordinary, then Liand's prophecy comes to naught except perhaps as a goad to make Anele take his place as Jeremiah's savior and now Anele, the last hope of the land uses his powers to save Jeremiah instead of fighting off the Worm or perhaps Kestenessen and the Skurj, which was what I was sure his powers were aimed at and to top it all off the Ur-Viles used the manacled so much was made of to tame Esmer. Since they were created before he was even conceived it's obvious he wasn't their purpose.

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand it's going off the beaten path into unexplored territory and I'm glad prophecies and inescapable plans can be circumvented. On the other hand these repeated letdowns are kind of disappointing.
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Post by Zarathustra »

I'm done with chapter 3 of part two. I liked the first one, grew quickly bored with all the sitting around in the second one, liked the description of trying to free Jeremiah in the third one, but hated the end where Liand dies.

Now that I've spoiled myself in another thread about another major death, I think I'll drop out of the discussion until I'm done with the book. I don't want anything else spoiled. And frankly, all my comments are probably just going to be downers anyway, because my impression of the book is becoming very negative. So I don't really have the heart to fill up this thread with complaints. You guys have fun. I'll see you again on the other side.
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Part 2 - chapter 6: Parting Company

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Zarathustra - I hope you'll find joy and the reading of the rest of the books. There are certainly a lot of good things as well.

See you on the other side!


Part 2 - chapter 6: Parting Company


Well in this chapter Donaldson (and Linden) answer my complaints from the last chapter. This chapter was full of exposition and explanations. At points the Ur-Viles logic was too convoluted for me to follow.

(The Ur-Viles' perspective about their history was interesting. There's a lot of hubris in it yet their ultimate goal is simply to belong and be validated by others)

I guess having Linden agree with my opinion that the price was too high helps me forgive her a little bit.

But being told that the manacles were meant for Esmer didn't make a lot of sense to me. Beside the fact that they were made before his parents even met I have to ask:was he such an important figure? Kestenessen and the Skurj seem more important. The only reason to single him and choose manacles instead of a more deadly weapon is if they hoped he would become a force for the good in his new condition. After all, unlike Kestenessen, Roger and the rest of the villains, he wished to help and do good. The fact that the demondim-spawn tried to feed him vitrim after they manacled him strengthens this impression.

But he doesn't choose to fulfill those possibilities. Instead of trying to make anything more of himself now that he's freed of his conflicting powers he makes them give him suicide. And it's not just him. Anele also embraces death as soon as his powers are given up.

I really disliked these suicide-deaths, particularly Esmer's. Were their powers the sum of their lives? Is the only thing to do without such powers is curl up and die? What's more, is the problem perhaps Donaldson's? I know they were well written and Anele is always displayed in a sympathetic way, but-

Anele in the end is shown as a very big coward. He gives his life to save Jeremiah's but other then that his entire life is a cowardly shirking of responsibilities in one form or another. He fears to be overshadowed by his parents so he abandons his duties as a Lord and becomes an Unfettered. Then he finds another purpose, one related to the danger of Kestenessen or maybe the Worm but he can't face that either. He sits in his cave and does nothing to prevent the problem at its source. Kestenessen and his skurj are allowed to escape their prison unopposed. When he finds a caesure he doesn't take his Staff with him. A coincidence? Somehow I doubt that.

He continues to flee his responsibility to the task he chose for himself by losing his mind, thereby letting all sorts of foes use him for their gain. He depends on the Land and its people to tend and feed him but he does not give anything in return. Is his abiding antagonistic relationship with the Haruchai in part because of the vast contrasts (and similarities) between them?

In the end the company breaks up.

The Ardent returns unexpectedly. I was sure he already died but the Insequent use his almost dead body to take the two ramen cords to Revelstone to convince the Masters to go fight Cavewights, skurj and Gorgons. Do they have time to march or even ride from Revelstone to Mount Thunder? I seem to recall from the travels in LFB that it took more than a few days, but maybe they'll manage to get there in the last minute.

And Covenant with the krill and the remaining Humbled goes to confront Joan. I now think his distance from Linden was in large part because of this. It's more difficult to make love to Linden when the person who was/is his wife is right around the corner instead of in a different world. Especially after his big talk about fidelity with SWMNBN. I really don't know what he'll do when he reaches her. A lot could be made with this plot-line but I dread it would be wasted like the meeting with Roger. And I wonder if it was good to take the other woman out of the scene.

So Linden remains with only the giants and Mahrtiir. I'm thinking they'll go to the Colossus to confront the Worm.

I wonder how Donaldson will manage his disparate plot-lines. I think he won't bother with the Haruchai and instead show them when Linden gets back to them.

The company has become too bare-boned.


Edit to add - But I have to say the portrayal of Stave's reaction to his son's death was very well done.
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Re: Part 2 - chapter 6: Parting Company

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Anele in the end is shown as a very big coward.
Is that what Donaldson was trying to show? That Anele was just a big coward?

Maybe the lesson went something like this:

Strength from weakness - weakness from strength.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

I posted this reply once but then I deleted it until I could determine if you had already read to this point. It appears that you have read what I am about to quote, so I can't help but wonder why you think Anele was a coward.

There was also the practical side to Anele's madness:
Now Linden understood the necessity of his madness. Without it—without that form of concealment—Kastenessen or Lord Foul might have realized that Anele was far more dangerous to their intentions for Jeremiah than Liand or orcrest. More dangerous than Linden herself. Kastenessen might have killed the old man at his first opportunity, in the Verge of Wandering.
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Re: Part 2 - Chapter 7: Implications of Trust

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TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: Maybe the lesson went something like this:

Strength from weakness - weakness from strength.
If by strength you mean power, I think I agree



So, Chapter 7: Implications of Trust

This was a strange chapter. It left me with more questions then answers.

Linden and her reduced company let the Ranyhyn choose their heading. The Giants' response to this idea surprised me a little. Being denizens of the Land('s world) I expected them to take this in stride but they raise their noses at the idea of letting mere dumb horses lead them. I now think their gift of tongues blinded them to some things. The Ranyhym are obviously intelligent and earth-gifted creatures, but because the giants can't hear their speech like the ramen and the haruchai can and because unlike the Gorgons they like to help out, they think of them as just particularly good mounts.

I haven't figured Joan's exact location until Linden told me, mainly because I assumed from the maps that the lava chasm was still there and Joan's location on the other hand was just a plain full of broken rocks.

Before this book I didn't even think Joan was in any physical location. I thought she was like pre-"What have you done!" Covenant, outside ordinary time and space. But maybe living where Foul's timeless spirit resided for so long makes her perceptions of time different from ordinary beings living in the rest of Creation.

So Joan is stranded in the ruins of Foul's Creche surrounded by the miasma of his former evil deeds and presence. Could she be hurling her white magic bolts not against her husband but against the pervading evil that surrounds her? Does she see things she hates in herself in them? Now I think Linden vilified her with her constant opinion that Joan is trying to destroy Covenant.

Anyway the disintegrating landscape Linden passes through was scary. This is the future the world faces if Joan is not stopped. I can see why Covenant thought this was the most urgent concern even if for him it was personal. The Ranyhym were probably the only reason both Linden and Covenant are not swallowed by the time-maelstroms all around them.

But all of that is merely the prelude to the main event: the altercation between Linden and the Sarangrave.

Donaldson chooses the "It was all just a dream--Not!" gambit which I always loved having in stories of the Ordinary-People-In-Fantastical-Adventures type. Reading it you miss the old Linden who could feel sorrow and empathy for the dead Sara Clint and is not so utterly burned out. It's been so long you almost forgot what she was like before. The scene is rife with allegories, the whole scene a metaphor, perhaps. And it was truly hellish. More cruel than I'd credited the Sarangrave demon, Horrim Carabal capable of. The beings responsible for creating it, the Feroce, are intriguing. I hope we'll learn more of them or even see them again. Somehow I don't think they originated from Sarangrave but who knows.

It was amusing that the Sarangrave is still fearful of the white gold ring a couple thousand years after Covenant wounded it with the krill but the battle with it at the end was disappointing. Why does it keep the Staff in an easy to reach location? Why doesn't it immediately haul it back to its midst? Or even submerge it beneath the surface where mammals won't have an easy time finding it? I'm not sure what it could have done with it. It's supposed to be inimical to his sort but dangling it a stone throw away from the group it stole it from makes no sense. And why are his magical water tentacles vulnerable to mundane swords?? Bah! I miss the Sarangrave of old.

Linden's self induced injuries turned out to be good things. Linden was starting to follow Kestenessen and Joan on their road of self mutilation so I didn't expect them to help her in any way. I also disliked how much she underestimate the role of the doctors/healers in helping deranged people regain their sanity. But maybe it fits her current emotional morass to view herself like that.

It's obvious that the Ranyhym wanted this confrontation to happen. Did they get what they wished for? Maybe they thought Horrim Carabas would be changed for the better if he would be infused with the Staff's healthy aura instead of the Banes' effluvium? That perhaps, being wise in the ways of earthpower it would be a fit champion against the Worm? It may be the closest thing to the One Forest still in existence in the Land (I'm influenced by wayfriend's theory about this here)


Edited for clarity.

Extra Edit - and now with a correct chapter heading :lol:
Last edited by shadowbinding shoe on Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Part 2 - chapter 8: The Amends of the Ranyhyn

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Part 2 - chapter 8: The Amends of the Ranyhyn

So now we return to Kelebhabanal's and Kevin's stories to give them yet another interpretation and yet another new twist.

Going over the story with added details each time worked in "The Real Story" or "Hyperion" for that matter if we take a different author but seriously, this is getting too much. Why not a fresh story? The previous chapter showed that Donaldson can create new things.

And I have to say I didn't agree with Donaldson opinions here.

Mhartiir thinks Foul couldn't kill the father of horses without the Lurker doing the actual deed. This is an example of an explanation that wasn't needed in the first place. To fear no danger is not wise but blatant foolishness. And their history shows us they're no such fools. When Elena turned the Land into a place of horrors the Ranyhym were smart enough to leave the place as soon as Covenant let them. When the Sunbane ruled it they remained in foreign lands. Yet when they needed, they did hazard the Sarangrave, as they did in the Illearth War when they carried the mission to the Giants. I can well believe they find abhorrent a place that has been corrupted to such a degree that the very Landscape becomes an active enemy craving to steal the spark of earthpower that is at the very root of their being. Is any other explanation necessary?

I also had two specific issues with that story:

It's been a while since I've read the First Chronicles but aren't the amanibhavam flowers supposed to originate from the drops of Kelebhabanal's blood shed on the Plains of Ra when he was slain? If he died in the Sarangrave that couldn't still be true.

And since Kelebhabanal consented to be sacrificed would a mighty foe really be necessary to kill him? So maybe Kelebhabanal couldn't help instinctively defending himself when death was imminent. I can imagine Foul taking glee at sending some lowly servant to execute Kelebhabanal and each time Kelebhabanal instinctively slew it Foul would send the kresh to kill some more of his heard. Hmmm.

As for Kevin and the conclusions Linden is supposed to draw from it I have to say No, no, no! When someone becomes a leader he takes greater responsibility and greater blame (as well as greater credit) for the things he does. That's what being a leader is all about. And having second thoughts of the might have been is what people do. It also probably helps them avoid repeating their mistakes.

Equating feeling guilt and wondering about the might have beens with how Desecration happens is just so wrong. There's a giant leap between these things.

Linden says she treated everyone around her as children or invalids. Could there be another reason for that beside her unusual personal history? Such as them being exactly such things? For my part I didn't feel her perception and reactions were unnatural in that respect.



Now for the good things. For once there's a giant joke (about giants knowing how to keep secrets) I found honest to god funny. It caught me by surprise. The buildup has been books in the making.

Also, if we accept Mhartiir's story, the ranyhym get more depth by their choices in the previous chapter. Hyn witness Linden's darkness when she sees her mutilating herself and decides the only way she can shock her out of her path of Despair and Desecration is by exposing her to the most horrible thing the ranyhym know: the slayer of their Sire Kelebhabanal.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I posted this reply once but then I deleted it until I could determine if you had already read to this point. It appears that you have read what I am about to quote, so I can't help but wonder why you think Anele was a coward.

There was also the practical side to Anele's madness:
Now Linden understood the necessity of his madness. Without it—without that form of concealment—Kastenessen or Lord Foul might have realized that Anele was far more dangerous to their intentions for Jeremiah than Liand or orcrest. More dangerous than Linden herself. Kastenessen might have killed the old man at his first opportunity, in the Verge of Wandering.
Ah. I haven't noticed this post before. I remember that passage. While it's probably true that he was underestimated because of his madness I don't think it was his motivation for becoming mad. It was just a fortunate side effect.

Also, his choice to give his life and powers to another would have been a bit inconceivable to beings whose whole psyche is filled with the desire to gain greater lives and powers.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I posted this reply once but then I deleted it until I could determine if you had already read to this point. It appears that you have read what I am about to quote, so I can't help but wonder why you think Anele was a coward.

There was also the practical side to Anele's madness:
Now Linden understood the necessity of his madness. Without it—without that form of concealment—Kastenessen or Lord Foul might have realized that Anele was far more dangerous to their intentions for Jeremiah than Liand or orcrest. More dangerous than Linden herself. Kastenessen might have killed the old man at his first opportunity, in the Verge of Wandering.
Ah. I haven't noticed this post before. I remember that passage. While it's probably true that he was underestimated because of his madness I don't think it was his motivation for becoming mad. It was just a fortunate side effect.

Also, his choice to give his life and powers to another would have been a bit inconceivable to beings whose whole psyche is filled with the desire to gain greater lives and powers.
I quite agree. Foul's incomprehension of this side of human nature has been his weakness all along. I believe this was stated somewhere in AATE.
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Part 2 - chapter 9: Great Need

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Part 2 - chapter 9: Great Need

This chapter had some big surprises!

I'd thought Donaldson would keep Jeremiah comatose until the very end of the last book when he would have ultimate powers to solve all the problems similarly to how Linden didn't become Sun-Sage until the last pages of the Second Chronicles but Jeremiah is now awake and responsive.

It wasn't a Thomas Covenant chapter which was what I was hoping for but on the other hand we now have a new player on the field and his interactions with his adoptive mother could make the story more dynamic.

The Ranyhym didn't take them to the Colossus so Linden could turn the Worm back with her Staff powers like I speculated. Instead their destination was the a mass grave where the Elohim committed genocide on a strange race in the distant past. It seems to be affiliated with volcanic activity and fire. Was it related to the fire-lions?

(If I understand Infelice correctly the dead race the Elohim destroyed were the ones who came up with the Vizard's plan for trapping the Elohim in limbo. So to top it all off he was a copycat.)

It fits the horses' character that their actions since control was given to them were not aimed at defeating enemies but at healing their charges. They and the ramen were never about seeking battle or becoming champions but about joy of life, fidelity and compassion.

Infelice made me think he was building that Elohim prison now so it seemed strange that she wouldn't be more active in stopping him from doing it but now that I know that the Ranyhym's purpose in this journey was to allow Jeremiah to free himself it makes more sense.

(As a side note, I have to admit that Stave's defiance of Infelice struck my fancy. Who said the haruchai can't wax poetic? And how it needled the vain Elohim, heh heh. I really wonder why the Elohim continually send such an unsympathetic member of their race as a liaison to Linden. Can't they see that it's counterproductive?)

But when Jeremiah started talking it was too much like the croyel charade from FR. And it was too sudden. I suppose it makes some sense since the croyel was using his real mind and thoughts to fool his mother but it grated. I didn't feel reassured that this time it was definitely the real Jeremiah, particularly since we've just been reminded that Lord Foul still has an unexpunged claim on him.

But though this chapter was colorful and dramatic I was dissatisfied with it on several levels.

Stave goes out of his way to prove to us how little Linden had to do with Jeremiah's recovery. Instead it's just various people and being from the Land that he only knew a couple of days and him mechanically building something that means nothing to us that does the trick. OK, I accept that maybe Linden couldn't free him from the croyel but since then his problem was merely not feeling safe (and loved and needed) enough yet to come out of his shell. Why would a show of fireworks be a fitting answer to this need? The scenes Linden had with the Mahdoubt after Melenkurion Abatha would have been much more fitting and would be far more moving.

And the racecar is Jeremiah birthright?? That's going too far. It only gained significance a few hours before everyone entered the Land when he picked it up for the first time. And if it became a symbol of the love between Jeremiah and Linden, throwing it to him in the midst of an action scene exemplifies what is wrong with this scene for me.

Also the transition between the vegetative Jeremiah and the normal boy Jeremiah was too sudden for me. It's strange that after spending so much space in recent chapters on the mundane need for food, washing and such no room is given for Jeremiah to grow into his new condition.

It's almost as though Donaldson decided that Linden must be stripped of every conceivable reason to feel needed. A follow up on her expressed beliefs that she treats others as children and invalids?
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Post by Aleksandr »

Also the transition between the vegetative Jeremiah and the normal boy Jeremiah was too sudden for me.
The boy has some 'splainin to do and hopefully we will get that in the next book. How and when did he first enter the Land, how did he encounter Roger and the croyel? What does he know about Kastenessen and his plans?
Also, back in FR, when the croyel's illusion was stripped by Linden's Command, we discovered that Jeremiah had a bullet hole in him. There's been nary a mention of that in this book. I was under the impression that the wound was unhealed, and I could accept that the croyel was keeping him alive, but the croyel is gone, and yet there's been no urgency on Linden's part (heck, no consideration at all) of a need to tend to that wound.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I quite agree. Foul's incomprehension of this side of human nature has been his weakness all along. I believe this was stated somewhere in AATE.
Yes. Though I always thought of him as a sort of ultimate chess-master that is able to predict every feasible option. The other enemies like Roger are powerful fools blinded by their own shortcomings but he's a master schemer.

And isn't his ability to inspire despair and despite like a maestro a testament that he can understand ?human? nature and emotions?

So how can he fail time after time? Is it that he sees only the surface of things? That he cannot grasp deeper motivations and strengths? No, that's not quite it. I think it is that he believes in the rationality of emotions. To him hope and love exist but they must be founded on a rational basis. So when his enemies continue to hope and love and strive when there is no rational reason to do so instead of despairing like he expects them to it defies his understanding and meticulous planning.
Aleksandr wrote:
Also the transition between the vegetative Jeremiah and the normal boy Jeremiah was too sudden for me.
The boy has some 'splainin to do and hopefully we will get that in the next book. How and when did he first enter the Land, how did he encounter Roger and the croyel? What does he know about Kastenessen and his plans?
I sure hope so. They better be good. :wink:
Also, back in FR, when the croyel's illusion was stripped by Linden's Command, we discovered that Jeremiah had a bullet hole in him. There's been nary a mention of that in this book. I was under the impression that the wound was unhealed, and I could accept that the croyel was keeping him alive, but the croyel is gone, and yet there's been no urgency on Linden's part (heck, no consideration at all) of a need to tend to that wound.


I assumed they were healed when he got to the Land like Linden's were (or Covenant's in the previous Chronicles.) He, Roger and Joan especially all suffered fatal wounds that somebody must have healed. I would need to reread that part of Fatal Revenant but I just thought Linden saw scars covering his chest.[/quote]
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I quite agree. Foul's incomprehension of this side of human nature has been his weakness all along. I believe this was stated somewhere in AATE.
Yes. Though I always thought of him as a sort of ultimate chess-master that is able to predict every feasible option. The other enemies like Roger are powerful fools blinded by their own shortcomings but he's a master schemer.

And isn't his ability to inspire despair and despite like a maestro a testament that he can understand ?human? nature and emotions?
Foul understands humans insofar as they reflect aspects of himself. Donaldson has written that Foul despairs but is not aware of it, so he strives to create (reflect back) despair in others. In psychological terms this is called 'projection.'
shadowbinding shoe wrote:So how can he fail time after time? Is it that he sees only the surface of things? That he cannot grasp deeper motivations and strengths? No, that's not quite it. I think it is that he believes in the rationality of emotions. To him hope and love exist but they must be founded on a rational basis. So when his enemies continue to hope and love and strive when there is no rational reason to do so instead of despairing like he expects them to it defies his understanding and meticulous planning.
They despair, but they do not become Landwasters. There are other answers to Despite.
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