Official Predictions Thread!

Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Post by Iolanthe »

High Lord Tolkien wrote:All that's left in the Land to fight the skurj, Sandgorgons, Roger and Kastenessen are the Masters.

Though good fighters they can't do much by themselves.
Liand saved the company from the skurj by making it rain. The Masters just need some water canons! :biggrin:
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Post by francois60 »

I find Donaldson REALLY hard to predict. The fact that many people think the ending of the Chronicles may be disastrous is a testament to how well he can keep us guessing. That being said, here are some things that I think will probably happen.

Jeremiah will be the key to stopping the Worm.

Whatever happens with Foul, Covenant is the key there. Covenant vs. Foul is still the main event of the series, even if Linden has been the primary focus of the Last Chronicles. I think one reason there are so many damn enemies in Last Chronicles is because Linden needs things to do. I imagine Kastenessen will fall to her.

The Masters will realize their error and come to the rescue at a pivotal point.

At least three Insequent will be in the final book. Two of them will die.

Here are the things I find toughest to predict and will be very intriguing to find out:

1) Foul hasn't been really all that evil. Sure, he's doing his usual manipulation act, but in the past he's been in more direct control of events through his ravers. This time all he really bothered to do was have Joan create caesures? Not a terrible gambit if he's trying to break the arch of time, but he's pretty much laying off the Land. In the last two books he pretty much destroyed the Land's beauty, this time he's let the Land flourish for the most part. Is Foul maybe going to make a deal that lets him out of his prison without destroying the Arch and one of Jeremiah's constructs is the key?

2) Roger. I have no idea where Donaldson is going with Roger. Will Covenant have to kill his son as well as his ex-wife? I actually wonder if maybe Roger will unwittingly save everything. Maybe since Linden probably has to take out Kastenessen she'll face them both at the same time.

3) The ending. Donaldson said it would be definitive. So Foul can't just be beaten. That's about as definitive as killing Freddy or Jason. Whatever it is, I hope it's good. I've been waiting for a couple of decades.
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Post by singingstone »

The Arch will fall allowing the Creator to do battle with Foul,
and/or Diassomer Mininderain with Elena's help will get him.

Joan's ring will be given to Linden in Marriage.

the Worm will be commanded to sleep by the Earthblood.

Covenant will confront Roger and give him a Beating.

Kastanessen will be eaten by the Worm.

the Elohim will be scolded by the Creator.

the Ur-viles and the Waynhim will work together to make a perfect race according to their weird or form a rock band called the Wurd.

Stave will Convince the Haruchai to fight the skurj with Keven's Lore.

Covenant will become the Lord-Fatherer. (hey, it could happen)

Jeremiah will rebuild the Arch.

I have no idea how Donaldson will pull everything together, but Knowing his work, it's going to hit us broadside! One thing he said that I like is that the Characters are going to earn it!
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Post by singingstone »

Maybe the Nicor will eat the Worm.

I really hope that Covenant is the focus of TLD! The story is so much richer with him at the wheel (or under it!).
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Post by Horrim Carabal »

singingstone wrote: Kastanessen will be eaten by the Worm.
This is a really great prediction. I think it actually might go down that way. After all, the Elohim are the Worm's food. Also, Kastenessen is so powerful that none of the main characters, except Covenant and Jeremiah, have a chance against him. Even Linden with the Staff would be overwhelmed by an Elohim's power. Jeremiah could maybe trap Kasty in a construct if given time, but only Covenant unleashing Wild Magic could hope to beat an Elohim one-on-one.

I doubt Covenant is going to fight Kasty. I think TC is for Foul while the others will have to deal with the skurj and their master.

The Worm removing Kastenessen from the picture sounds pretty likely to me.
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Post by singingstone »

Thanks Horrim Carabal.

It may be a long shot, but I really hope that Something is done to cleanse the Whitewarrens under Mount Thunder, and wash the Sarangrave Flat. Those places have been defiled for countless millennia, and they deserve a little healing.
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Post by Horrim Carabal »

singingstone wrote:Thanks Horrim Carabal.

It may be a long shot, but I really hope that Something is done to cleanse the Whitewarrens under Mount Thunder, and wash the Sarangrave Flat. Those places have been defiled for countless millennia, and they deserve a little healing.
Foul's not holed up under the mountain again, is he? Unless my memory is worsening, I don't recall Foul's location mentioned in the Last Chronicles yet. So I suppose the Wightwarrens are a *bit* cleaner these days. But yes, I agree with your sentiment.

...*thinking*....maybe I've just forgotten where Foul is? It's kind of odd, because in the First Chrons, everyone knew he was at the Creche, and in the Second, Foul's Kiril Threndor abode was revealed well before WGW. This would be the first time the Despiser's home has been kept secret.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

His current location is unknown, but on the other hand there have been several references to a certain period in his distant past before the first chrons, when he apparently studied with some magical cabal (distant predecessors of Kasreyn, iirc) and produced the Quellvisk...

So we might not know where Foul will appear in the end, but I can't help wondering if that part of his history will become even more important.


Re: Kastenessen - is that what happens to victims in Donaldson's books? Kastenessen was driven mad by the punishment of the Elohim, he was not evil by his own nature. I don't see him being devoured. Or at the least it won't be so straightforward.
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Post by Horrim Carabal »

Murrin wrote:His current location is unknown, but on the other hand there have been several references to a certain period in his distant past before the first chrons, when he apparently studied with some magical cabal (distant predecessors of Kasreyn, iirc) and produced the Quellvisk...

So we might not know where Foul will appear in the end, but I can't help wondering if that part of his history will become even more important.
The Demimages. Yes, maybe Foul's built himself a new Creche in Videk Amar! But I think he'll probably turn up somewhere in the Land...
Murrin wrote:Re: Kastenessen - is that what happens to victims in Donaldson's books? Kastenessen was driven mad by the punishment of the Elohim, he was not evil by his own nature. I don't see him being devoured. Or at the least it won't be so straightforward.
Good point. Maybe he will be redeemed somehow?

Aside from Covenant, I'm just not seeing the firepower among the heroes to win a firefight against Kastenessen.
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Post by singingstone »

murrin wrote:Re: Kastenessen - is that what happens to victims in Donaldson's books? Kastenessen was driven mad by the punishment of the Elohim, he was not evil by his own nature. I don't see him being devoured. Or at the least it won't be so straightforward.
There seems to be a lot of parallels emerging in the Last Chronicles between scorned women and their betrayers. For instance, There is Kastenessen and his mortal lover, Lord Foul and Diassomer Mininderain, Covenant and Elena, Covenant and Joan, and last but not least there is the Bane who, if I undersand it correctly, is an entity made up of scorned women.

I see your point that he is a victim, but it was also his duty to contain the skurj. Not only did he avoid his responsibility, he is also at fault for the merewives. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be redeemed, but I think the Women have a greater need to be vindicated.

Now that I think about it, I think that Esmer will probably be the instrument of his doom or redemption. His conflicting nature is a direct result of of Kasty's actions.
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Post by Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm »

singingstone wrote:I see your point that he is a victim, but it was also his duty to contain the skurj. Not only did he avoid his responsibility, he is also at fault for the merewives.
I like your line of thought generally, but I view it differently as well.

Kastenessen had no choice in the matter of being forced to contain the skurj. He didn't betray his beloved, he wasn't able to do anything. As for the duty - he didn't choose it and was against it from the very beginning. The skurj running around are no reason for joy, but I think, as Lord Mhoram said that Despite is resisted willingly - or not at all, there was no right for anyone to enforce such a fate on someone. And he's not at fault for the merwives, he was captured before and hardly had any influence on things, let alone the fact they were created not out of malice, but out of love, even if a lost and ruined one.
singingstone wrote:I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be redeemed, but I think the Women have a greater need to be vindicated.
I don't see how one makes the other impossible, moreover, I seriously doubt Kastenessen's beloved will be happy to walk free finally to get to know her beloved is lost.
singingstone wrote: There seems to be a lot of parallels emerging in the Last Chronicles between scorned women and their betrayers. For instance, There is Kastenessen and his mortal lover, Lord Foul and Diassomer Mininderain, Covenant and Elena, Covenant and Joan, and last but not least there is the Bane who, if I undersand it correctly, is an entity made up of scorned women.
I don't see these as much parallel. There is a lot in common for the women in the list, but the "couples" look odd to me. Kastenessen, like I said above, was separated from his beloved by force. Lord Foul, at least for how it looks out of the current information, which is not much, intended to mislead from the very beginning, though that's an old legends stuff, it may be much distorted and at least one thing looks suspicious to me as I look back. Covenant had pretty much nothing better to do about Elena, it's more like LF could be meant here again - it was him who used her and made her do what she hated most. And Covenant loved Joan sincerely, it was more like she betrayed him.

Yes, the Bane is, for how it looks now, many women caught in, though hard to say if all of them were betrayed at some point - it was also said that the Bane devours women and kills men, so ones not betrayed could also get caught, though apparently the Bane gets interest in those betrayed, that's why Elena was such a good bait. Maybe She just doesn't bother moving if there's a woman around that wasn't betrayed. Also it looks like the basis for the Bane is Diassomer, who got insane after getting trapped under the arc and then other women joined her suffering.

I rather hope that there will be an answer for all of them, I think no one has to suffer eternally, no matter what, and I hope and even think SRD thinks like that as well.
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Post by starkllr »

The skurj running around are no reason for joy, but I think, as Lord Mhoram said that Despite is resisted willingly - or not at all, there was no right for anyone to enforce such a fate on someone.
Interesting point, but I think you could argue that it's part of the intrinsic nature of the Elohim that any of them are liable to be Elected to confront a threat to the Earth, and it's the refusal to face that (however unpleasant it may be) that is Despite.

But also, are the Skurj really an avatar of Despite at all? They're "wrong" but not evil; from what we've been told so far, they have no will or sentience, just an unquenchable hunger to consume. There's no moral choice you can make with them, no question of ethics, any more than there would be in trying to limit the damage from an earthquake or a tornado.
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Post by singingstone »

Effaeldm and starkllr-
Good points all.

In regards to the parallels that I mentioned, they might not be the same, but it seemed to me that SRD brought them up for a reason, and he does not do that lightly. The Bane convinced me of that. It was too similar for me to ignore and I think it will be a big theme in TLD.

Kasty the merewives and the skurj may not be Evil, but no one in the Land (or anywhere else for that matter) ever starts that way. Even Foul has his reasons for doing what he did. I agree that no one should suffer eternally and would like to believe that everyone can be redeemed.

That brings another question to mind: How far can someone go down a dark path before they are irredeemable? Is there a point when someone has lost their ability make a change? More to the point: How much does past experience excuse present bad choices?

I won't pretend to know the answers, I just think it's interesting. :? [/img]
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Post by Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm »

starkllr wrote:...
Interesting point, but I think you could argue that it's part of the intrinsic nature of the Elohim that any of them are liable to be Elected to confront a threat to the Earth, and it's the refusal to face that (however unpleasant it may be) that is Despite.
...
The question is more like "Should it be that way?"
starkllr wrote:...
But also, are the Skurj really an avatar of Despite at all? They're "wrong" but not evil; from what we've been told so far, they have no will or sentience, just an unquenchable hunger to consume. There's no moral choice you can make with them, no question of ethics, any more than there would be in trying to limit the damage from an earthquake or a tornado.
Do you think Mhoram would say something like "Ok, it's not a question of Despite here, go get killed or suffer forever to resist, these don't care about your choice"? Of course, it's not easy and often people have to make choices when they have to lose something every way. But shouldn't they at least try as hard as possible to avoid such choices, to guard every life and freedom to the very end?
singingstone wrote:Effaeldm and starkllr-
Good points all.
...
Thank you
singingstone wrote:...
In regards to the parallels that I mentioned, they might not be the same, but it seemed to me that SRD brought them up for a reason, and he does not do that lightly. The Bane convinced me of that. It was too similar for me to ignore and I think it will be a big theme in TLD.
...
Yes, with this I agree
singingstone wrote:...
Kasty the merewives and the skurj may not be Evil, but no one in the Land (or anywhere else for that matter) ever starts that way. Even Foul has his reasons for doing what he did. I agree that no one should suffer eternally and would like to believe that everyone can be redeemed.
...
And with this moreover)
singingstone wrote:...
That brings another question to mind: How far can someone go down a dark path before they are irredeemable? Is there a point when someone has lost their ability make a change? More to the point: How much does past experience excuse present bad choices?

I won't pretend to know the answers, I just think it's interesting. :? [/img]
I think any far - or at least that it should be so.
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Post by starkllr »

Do you think Mhoram would say something like "Ok, it's not a question of Despite here, go get killed or suffer forever to resist, these don't care about your choice"? Of course, it's not easy and often people have to make choices when they have to lose something every way. But shouldn't they at least try as hard as possible to avoid such choices, to guard every life and freedom to the very end?
Good point, and rethinking things, I have to agree with you here.

But about the Elohim more generally, you say:
The question is more like "Should it be that way?"
I think with the Elohim, the answer is "yes". They are a part of the Earth, and part of its defense mechanism. Your white blood cells don't have a choice whether or not they seek out and attack foreign contaminants in your body. They just do it, as they're designed to do.

I think that, as they've been presented thus far, they don't truly have free will the same way that humans/Hauchai/Giants/etc do. And maybe that is actually the "shadow on their hearts" - the idea of forsaking their designed role, disobeying the Creator's will. Kastennessen did it. Arguably as a collective whole, the Elohim did it in The One Tree (remember that the Elohim talk about putting part of the cost of preserving the Earth on Covenant and his companions when in ages past they'd have taken the whole cost on themselves...which, arguably, is what following their Wurd would require them to do).

And maybe, since "acceptance" is one of the (many) themes Donaldson is playing with, the journey for the Elohim ends or at least shound end with them accepting and embracing their role, with all the costs and consequences that entails.
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Post by Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm »

starkllr wrote:...
The question is more like "Should it be that way?"
I think with the Elohim, the answer is "yes". They are a part of the Earth, and part of its defense mechanism. Your white blood cells don't have a choice whether or not they seek out and attack foreign contaminants in your body. They just do it, as they're designed to do.
...
This part of history is not covered much, but it looks quite different. Hard to say for sure, but looks like they weren't created to be expendable, and turned out to need to do that because of the things LF did. And they're no blood cells, unless those are sentient, understanding what happens and wishing to change that, and also with a risk of that going on for any period of time.
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Post by singingstone »

One more thing I will say about the Elohim, because we seem to be going off the thread.
Starkllr wrote:I think with the Elohim, the answer is "yes". They are a part of the Earth, and part of its defense mechanism. Your white blood cells don't have a choice whether or not they seek out and attack foreign contaminants in your body. They just do it, as they're designed to do.
Effealdm wrote:Hard to say for sure, but looks like they weren't created to be expendable, and turned out to need to do that because of the things LF did. And they're no blood cells, unless those are sentient, understanding what happens and wishing to change that, and also with a risk of that going on for any period of time.
When an Elohim is Appointed he/she still has free will. Unfortunately for them, that choice is between bad and worse. They can prevent the destruction of the Earth wit their sacrifice or they can let it happen, but that isn't the issue. They could have been actively interested in the fate of the Earth instead of hiding out in Elemesnadene, partying it up. If they had acted sooner the Sunbane would have never been a threat. They could have used a portion of their power instead of sacrificing one of them if they had been watching like they used to. That's not Despite, but it is laziness and egotism.

Now let's look at the opposite; the Haruchai. They don't count the personal cost to themselves. They were willing to sacrifice love, sleep, and death just so the Lords would be defended. And they except no failure in themselves.

Maybe if Esmer learns to compromise with himself, he will learn to fight for what he believes without punishing himself for it. Moderation in all things, right?
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Post by Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm »

singingstone wrote:One more thing I will say about the Elohim, because we seem to be going off the thread.
...
I don't think so, we're discussing how various characters and events may turn out, basing that on what is known.
singingstone wrote:...
When an Elohim is Appointed he/she still has free will. Unfortunately for them, that choice is between bad and worse.
...
Well, that's not a choice anyone should be given.
singingstone wrote:...
They could have been actively interested in the fate of the Earth instead of hiding out in Elemesnadene, partying it up.
On that I definitely agree, though their behavior seems more on the stupid side for me, than lazy. They did what they thought was right, but they could really use thinking on that better. Their under-appreciation of Lord Foul reminded me of Terry Pratchett's quote "Murder was in fact, a fairly uncommon event in Ankh-Morpok, but there were a lot of suicides. Waliking in the night time alleyways of The Shades was suicide, asking for a short in a dwarf bar was suicide, you could commit suicide very easily if you weren't careful.")

They did a lot to get their fate right on their heads, but still I think it should end better for them. Kastenessen is a separate story at all, and I think he deserves something better even more then most of them after what he suffered through and because the reason for most of it was love.
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Post by Horrim Carabal »

Effaeldm wrote: On that I definitely agree, though their behavior seems more on the stupid side for me, than lazy. They did what they thought was right, but they could really use thinking on that better. Their under-appreciation of Lord Foul reminded me of Terry Pratchett's quote "Murder was in fact, a fairly uncommon event in Ankh-Morpok, but there were a lot of suicides.
To be fair to the Elohim, there's not much they could do about Foul. He's immune to Earthpower, and they are pure Earthpower. Although I wonder if the Elohim could have stopped the Sunbane, had they bothered to act.

But Foul himself? He's beyond their power.
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Post by DWOLF »

The worm - linden will chill it out with a drum beat, just like the nicor in TOT.
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