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Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Post by Seppi2112 »

Nerdanel wrote:
Anyway, I think the world of the First Chronicles didn't contain any Insequent. I think the past was retroactively changed to contain Insequent.

A good example of this principle in action is the climax of TPTP where Covenant faces down Lord Foul. Then in AATE Covenant in spirit form time-travels to that very scene, causing Lord Foul to turn and utter a line he very definitely didn't say in the original version of the history that was shown to us in TPTP.
Ever since their introduction in TLCs I've felt that the Insequent were a product of the final showdown in WGW (just as the sunbane was a product of TPTP). The name itself - Insequent - suggests that they exist out of place in time, and yet none of them have any time travel capability (except for the Mahdoubt but that's somewhat different)... so why would the race be referred to as insequent if not for the fact that they are literally _supposed to be_ a new addition to the history of the land due to Foul's manipulations of time since TC died and joined the arch.
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Post by wayfriend »

One thing that's certain is that many of the Insequent we have met so far have some sort of power over time. The Theomach could see the future; the Mahdoubt could travel to the past; the Vizard could disable a legion of Haruchai in less than a second. The Harrow and the Ardent are exceptions -- unless you include being able to move great distances in an eyeblink as a power over time.

This could be the origin of their racial name. Their power over time.

But if Foul created the Insequent and sent them back in time, wouldn't the Insequent be trying to damage the Arch by creating historical inconsistencies?
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Post by SleeplessOne »

wayfriend wrote:
Atrium wrote:OK, lets say that the Harrow found the secret to unbind Demondim. He is still facing a whole horde of them. Supposedly ultra powerful beings. Howe can it be that they with all their magics are totally effectless against one mortal?
That part, at least, is easy to answer. And it's rather backed up by the story as well.

The Demondim are made beings. Because they are made beings, they have a certain weakness: if they can be put together, they can be taken apart. The Harrow, by luck or by skill, has found their Achilles heel. He, and no other, has found the secret of unbinding them. Their structure has a keystone, if you will, and when you remove the keystone their whole structure falls apart.

So it's like the Harrow found the secret entrance into an otherwise impregnable castle. Everyone else storms the gates and dies trying, while he walks in through the secret door without much effort.

And something about it reminds me about Donaldson's line: “Every weakness is a strength misapplied, and every strength is a weakness that has found its proper use.” The Harrow has figured out the weakness that is inherent in the Demondim's strength.

The important point is, it's not the effort that makes the difference, it's the knowledge. And I think that's the main thing about the Insequent. They get their power from knowledge, hard sought and hard won knowledge, not from any innate superior capability. They aren't tapping their inner passion like the Lords, they aren't innate earthpower like the Elohim. They just have solved the puzzles of power. (Isn't there an expression about how you can move a mountain if you find the exact right place to push?")
Atrium wrote:I also recall something mentioned about how the Insequents magics were related to the wild magic.
Yes. Esmer said that the Ardent's teleportation ability was like wild magic. Which was indeed odd.
In [u]Against All Things Ending[/u] was wrote:Cail’s son lifted his shoulders: a shrug of disdain. "The conjoined powers of the Insequent have made you mighty, but they have not altered the nature of your knowledge. The theurgies by which you bypass distances are a wan mimicry of wild magic." His scorn sounded like despair. "They are impotent in my presence."
It's an open question as to in which way the ability is like wild magic. Also, we can't know if it is this one single instance that is like wild magic, or all abilities of the Insequent.

Ardent. Argent. A clue?

Certainly it's a clue that Esmer can block it. This could mean that the Ardent's ability is some sort of "alloy", or related to such.
excellent and insightful post as always WF.

with regards to the question you pose at the end of your post, I think there are a couple of ways of looking at Esmer's statement which offer different interpretations to the conclusion yourself and Atrium have drawn.

one is that the Ardent's ability's are like wild magic in that they are both impotent against Esmer; he says as much himself.
perhaps all Esmer is saying is that, despite the Ardent's inflated might, Esmer is proof against Wild Magic, an even greater might, so, y'know, :P
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Post by peter »

I don't quite understand the Insequents place in the Chrons. If I remember correctly they are mortal beings - say, like the Lords - whose powers are entirely learned or aquired (in just the same way that the Lords studied Kevins Lore and learned how to use it). They seem remarkably powerful for mortal beings to me and what is the scource of their power. Do they use Earthpower or some other as yet unrevealed scource. From whence do they spring and how many of them are there. Are there armys of them waiting in the wings or only the few individuals we have met still wandering around the time and places of the Land. Are they confined to the Land or do they wander the whole Earth. Why have we not seen them in the earlier Chrons (or have we) or had mention of them by say the Elohim (to whom they seem so fiercely opposed). Are they indeed confined to the world of the Land at all or do they range freely far and wide, say even to TC's 'real world'. Yhe introduction of a hidden Bane like SWMNBN is more easily accomodated by virtue of her (as yet) deep confinement under Mount Thunder. The Insequent are another matter all-together. To me they have the feel of a 'late idea' that has been woven into the fabric of the Chrons, but is not able to hide it's separateness seamlessly.
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Post by Horrim Carabal »

peter wrote:To me they have the feel of a 'late idea' that has been woven into the fabric of the Chrons
And what, exactly, would be wrong with this if true?
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Just because something isn't mentioned at all doesn't make it a "late idea" or a case of "how am I going to avoid this plot hole? I know--I'll retcon this character or situation into the novel". We had no mention of Kasreyn in the first Chronicles, even though the name of Brathair is mentioned. We already knew that there were other banes buried under Mount Thunder (the Illearth Stone was only one of them--did SWMNBN have anything to do with creating it or was it simply something random? *shrug*) but we didn't know what they were. The Old Lords might have known about the Lost Deep, given their early interaction with both Viles and Demondim, but I don't think the New Lords knew about it--that knowledge had been lost (it had been 1,000 years since the RoD, after all).

We know of the Land, a little bit just to the south, north, and barely to the west of there, we know about Elemensdene, the (now lost) Isle of the One Tree, and Brathair. The entire rest of that world is a complete blank. There are beauties and horrors waiting there we cannot even imagine, I am certain. SRD could spend the rest of his life populating the rest of that world and never sufficiently fill it.
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Post by ussusimiel »

Horrim Carabal wrote:
peter wrote:To me they have the feel of a 'late idea' that has been woven into the fabric of the Chrons
And what, exactly, would be wrong with this if true?
I have the same feeling as peter. I would say that I feel that the Insequent are 'not fully woven' into the fabric of the Chrons. When we met the Mahdoubt first she felt wise and mysterious in a similar way to the Unfettered who healed Covenant in TPTP. But when she turned out to have the power to time travel I was disappointed and unconvinced.

As some perceptive people have pointed out, the Insequent are in-sequent; it's as if they are somehow immune to time or capable of controlling it. Not all in the same way as the Mahdoubt, but they do seem to be practically immortal e.g. the Theomach. This has never been fully explained and that constantly bugs me. It means that I am unwilling to invest emotionally in them. Their deaths don't touch me the way those of the Unfettered or Hamako or Hollian (or even Kasreyn) did (do).

As regards Kasreyn and his power, I never had a problem with it because it seemed constrained in a manner analagous to white gold's unconstrained power. He was limited by the nature of the world in a way that the Insequent don't seem to be. The only limitation they seem to have is a self-imposed one (which is the same as no limitation at all, in my view).

My biggest suspicion about the retconned nature of the Insequent is that Amok doesn't mention them in TIW. This suggests to me that SRD came up with them as something wholly new. If they weren't present in SRD's initial conception of the world of the Land, this may explain why they don't feel natural in it (to me).

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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Why would Amok talk about them? He was the path to the Seventh Ward, the Earthblood, and as such he wouldn't need to have any knowledge other than that which pertained to his purpose. He might have met them while waiting and wandering but he wouldn't have any reason to mention them once he felt the krill activate.

So...apparently during that 1,000 years the people of the Land spent all their time rebuilding because it appears that they didn't explore the more remote areas of the Land and didn't venture under Melenkurion Skyweir or Mount Thunder.
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ussusimiel wrote:My biggest suspicion about the retconned nature of the Insequent is that Amok doesn't mention them in TIW. This suggests to me that SRD came up with them as something wholly new. If they weren't present in SRD's initial conception of the world of the Land, this may explain why they don't feel natural in it (to me).

u.
SRD didn't even know what Elohim or sandgorgons were when he had Amok mention them. he filled in all that when he got to writing the second chronicles.
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ussusimiel wrote:
Horrim Carabal wrote:
peter wrote:To me they have the feel of a 'late idea' that has been woven into the fabric of the Chrons
And what, exactly, would be wrong with this if true?
I have the same feeling as peter. I would say that I feel that the Insequent are 'not fully woven' into the fabric of the Chrons. When we met the Mahdoubt first she felt wise and mysterious in a similar way to the Unfettered who healed Covenant in TPTP. But when she turned out to have the power to time travel I was disappointed and unconvinced.

As some perceptive people have pointed out, the Insequent are in-sequent; it's as if they are somehow immune to time or capable of controlling it. Not all in the same way as the Mahdoubt, but they do seem to be practically immortal e.g. the Theomach. This has never been fully explained and that constantly bugs me. It means that I am unwilling to invest emotionally in them. Their deaths don't touch me the way those of the Unfettered or Hamako or Hollian (or even Kasreyn) did (do).

As regards Kasreyn and his power, I never had a problem with it because it seemed constrained in a manner analagous to white gold's unconstrained power. He was limited by the nature of the world in a way that the Insequent don't seem to be. The only limitation they seem to have is a self-imposed one (which is the same as no limitation at all, in my view).

My biggest suspicion about the retconned nature of the Insequent is that Amok doesn't mention them in TIW. This suggests to me that SRD came up with them as something wholly new. If they weren't present in SRD's initial conception of the world of the Land, this may explain why they don't feel natural in it (to me).

u.
Alright, just to get at U. for saying I was "anile" and to continue in the same anileness... ;)
As far as we can tell, the Insequent aren't immune to time...a total of TWO that we know have time-related powers...but that only makes sense in the current conditions where most of the point involves the Arch of Time...and the other three we know don't...we also know that most of the others don't [indirectly from what the Ardent says] that the entire RACE both:
1] was wrong about what the future would be.
2] has no idea what it will be NOW.
Also, everyone keeps saying things like "the Insequent have no limits except what they decided to have." I think that's false. I think it's fairly clear that without the limit, they'd have no power at all...[or alternatively, they'd be extinct].
Also, though some have made the argument that only their distance-traveling "is a pale reflection" or whatever he said, of white-gold and that's why Esmer messes with it, I suspect that that also is false.
I suspect the essential basis of their "stricture" on power is parallel to Kasryn's need for imperfections...though perhaps from the other side...if Kasryn's didn't have a flaw, the magic would simply fail. If the Insequent lore was "rule-less," the effects would be "wild."...chaos, beyond control [because it is a reflection it couldn't scale up to utter destruction like actual white-gold/wild magic, yet it would not accomplish what they wished...not like the "power of command" which does so just cuz beings aren't wise enough to see all the consequences, but because it is the essence of unpredictability, the consequences are literally beyond know-ability]
As far as Amok and that...EVERYTHING after the 1st Chron's is "Retconned." Even things that might not seem so are.
But what the heck could be more retcon than the Sun-bane????
For my money that's far less woven into the fabric than almost anything else [right now only Kastenessen is less woven...but that may change with a book still to go...on which he is important player one way or another].
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Post by wayfriend »

In my opinion, if Donaldson wrote four new books without adding anything new to the story, that wouldn't be great either.

And yet, the Insequent bother where the skurj and SWMNBN do not. Why?

Because they existed in the Land's past, during the times of the other Chronicles? Well, so did the skurj and SWMNBN.

Looking closer, you may say, okay, but I can see why these other things remained off-stage. But there's something about the Insequent ... it seems like we should have bumped into them, and that it's too convenient to somehow have missed them this whole time, until now.

But why is that? I think it's because the Insequent caused the Haruchai vow. And they became ak-Haru Kensaustin Ardenol. And they tutored Berek.

In short, they meddled. What seems like a cheat must be that they were heretofore unknown BUT they had a secret hand in everything that has happened.

But why isn't that exciting and clever? Why is it instead "unnatural" and "a retcon"?

My theory, which I posted a while back. In short, Donaldson meddled with the past in ways that disappointed.
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Post by ussusimiel »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Why would Amok talk about them? He was the path to the Seventh Ward, the Earthblood, and as such he wouldn't need to have any knowledge other than that which pertained to his purpose. He might have met them while waiting and wandering but he wouldn't have any reason to mention them once he felt the krill activate.
I suppose the reason I mention Amok is because all the powerful characters that he mentioned (the Elohim, the Sandgorgons, the Merewives and Kelenbhrabanal) subsequently turned up in the later books (one way or another) as significant forces. I find it surprising that Amok didn't invoke the Insequent in his list. Also, the ones he does invoke are familiar to the Lords from stories they have heard over thousands of years. It must also be the case that the Giants have not only never met them but also never heard of them. While it is plausible that the Haruchai might never mention the Vizard, it is highly unlikely that Giants wouldn't tell stories about such a race.
wayfriend wrote:And yet, the Insequent bother where the skurj and SWMNBN do not. Why?
SWMNBN bothers big-time but so far she has only featured for a relatively small part of one book. As a bane She has none of the emotional punch for me that the Illearth Stone had (has). The skurj are less troublesome (but not without some disquiet :lol: ) because they are connected with Kastenessen. (Look, Esmer bugs me and the Masters, never mind the Insequent :-x )
Vraith wrote:If the Insequent lore was "rule-less," the effects would be "wild."...chaos, beyond control
It's not so much that the Insequent are without limits, more that once they apply themselves to any one area of knowledge they master it. Individually they have obvious limits, collectively it feels like they can do anything (I concede that they have admitted their limitations in relation to the future, but in relation to lots of other powers they can do things they seem to defy the 'nature' of the world of the Land (with out any explanation of how they can do this)).
Vraith wrote:But what the heck could be more retcon than the Sun-bane????
Quite disrespectfully, I disagree with your assanile assertion :P For me the Sunbane is presaged by the extended winter in TPTP and it essentially arises from the same source i.e. the corruption/destruction of the the Staff of Law. The Sunbane is not a retcon at all, it is a (un)natural extension of what was already present.
wayfriend wrote:But why isn't that exciting and clever? Why is it instead "unnatural" and "a retcon"?

My theory which I posted a while back. In short, Donaldson meddled with the past in ways that disappointed.
I read your linked post, wayfriend, excellent as always :Hail:

I'm not sure that I agree with a lot of it maybe simply because the time spent in the past is one of the few parts of the Last Chrons that I enjoyed. (It may also be that by that stage I had managed to separate the new books from the 1st and 2nd Chrons.)

As to why I don't repond to the new elements in the books as 'exciting and clever', myself and Vraith have discussed (and disagreed about) this a number of times. It is interesting that when I first came across the Watch I though that most people were enamoured with the Last Chrons, but as time has gone on I have realised that that is not the case. As far as I can see many people find them uninspiring at best. This disappoints and pleases me. I am glad to find that I am not the only person who is unimpressed by them, but I would also love to have been shown the error of my ways :(

You and Vraith (and a number of others) have impressed me with your insights and passion for the new books. You have helped me sustain a level of interest that I would otherwise not have had. For that I am very grateful. Thank you! I have come to admire SRD very much and appreciate the reassurance that he hasn't simply lost it :biggrin:

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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

ussusimiel wrote:I suppose the reason I mention Amok is because all the powerful characters that he mentioned (the Elohim, the Sandgorgons, the Merewives and Kelenbhrabanal) subsequently turned up in the later books (one way or another) as significant forces. I find it surprising that Amok didn't invoke the Insequent in his list. Also, the ones he does invoke are familiar to the Lords from stories they have heard over thousands of years. It must also be the case that the Giants have not only never met them but also never heard of them. While it is plausible that the Haruchai might never mention the Vizard, it is highly unlikely that Giants wouldn't tell stories about such a race.
Amok might not have met them, he might have been instructed never to speak of them, or one of them might have been able to unmake or distort him in some manner if he spoke of them. The Giants didn't find the Land until the time of Damelon and most likely never went farther west than Revelstone, so they probably never met any Insequent before.

In all honesty, I initially thought they sounded like a Deus ex machina when I read FR; at the very least it also seemed like they didn't make a whole lot of sense. The Theomach's reason for existing is to go backwards in time, tutor Berek, then become the original Guardian? The goal of every Insequent is to avoid every other Insequent (or at least not interfere with each other at all) and they all want to outdo each other? The Harrow studied the lore of the Viles, who hadn't existed for over 8,000 or 9,000 years? The Mahdoubt could timejump? The Ardent could teleport multiple people? I suppose it is rather fortunate that they all seem to die relatively quickly because sometimes they still leave unanswered questions.

On the other hand...I should reread the books and see if I figure out anything I missed before and The Last Dark comes out next year--it may reveal information that makes everything else click into place.
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Post by sindatur »

Is it not possible they stayed hidden from the foks of the Land easily, because their habits mimic those of the Unfettered, so they were able to hide behind the Legend and actuality of The Unfettered? If any were ever known, they were assumed to be simply Unfettered Ones?

Did The Vizard reveal himself as Insequent in the past, or did they figure it out after the Old and New Lords were gone?
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Horrim Carabal wrote:
peter wrote:To me they have the feel of a 'late idea' that has been woven into the fabric of the Chrons
And what, exactly, would be wrong with this if true?
The fact that it had 'the feel' of a late idea. Of course in the writing of new Chrons (both 2nd and 3rd) new ideas had to be introduced and unless the series was to be entierly linear and simplistic in it's construction unknown or briefly hinted at events of the past were going to have to be 'fleshed out'. There is no problem with this exept when it is clumsily done and the introductions 'grate' against the the literary framework that has previousely been constructed. It is more 'feel' than something I can put my finger directly on - but it's as if they are charachters from 'The Mordant's Need' books who have slipped across in to the Chrons. We do not have enough 'background' knowledge of them to suddenly and effortlessly factor them into our existing mental map of the Land and it's development over time. And some of us at least seem to be struggling with their 'invisibility' in the series to date even in 'apocryphal' form. SHMNBN had been hinted at,if not fully concieved in SRD's mind, when he spoke of his 'deep banes' buried under Mount Thunder. The Elohim and Sand Gorgons mentioned by Saltheart (I think) and Amok. Kasreyn has been used as a similar example to the Insequent - but what did Kasreyn ever do that would have effected the people of the Land. As far as I can see he built a 'geas', tempted a Croyel onto his shoulder to buy a bit of extra time and then surrounded himself with fools and scantily clad girls so he could enjoy the fruits of having his own little kingdom to play with - not exactly on the scale of demolishing the Arch of Time and rending the Heavens assunder. No Kasreyn was 'localised' in a way that the Insequent are not and his introduction was thus entierly believable. I have no problem with the Insequent or any other great power being introduced into the Last Chrons - in fact I think it *had* to be done - I just don't think in the Insequents case it has been well done and this is the problem.
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Post by wayfriend »

sindatur wrote:Did The Vizard reveal himself as Insequent in the past, or did they figure it out after the Old and New Lords were gone?
He revealed that he, and the people of the Land he dwelt in, were Insequent.
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Post by Seppi2112 »

ussusimiel wrote: I would say that I feel that the Insequent are 'not fully woven' into the fabric of the Chrons.
Like something inserted into the previously existing, correct timeline after the fact, perhaps? :)
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Post by ussusimiel »

Seppi2112 wrote:
ussusimiel wrote: I would say that I feel that the Insequent are 'not fully woven' into the fabric of the Chrons.
Like something inserted into the previously existing, correct timeline after the fact, perhaps? :)
Very much so. While it's a clever plot device and it gives you powerful beings to add to the story in the present, for me, it doesn't add to the richness of the story we had (and it risks damaging it). It also leaves the curious sense that the Insequent aren't at all as important and powerful as they'd like to think they are. In fact, if you wanted to get meta about it you could say that the author might be making fun of them because of their hubris :biggrin:

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Post by Variol Farseer »

If the name of the Insequent means anything, it means that they are out of sequence — not part of the natural causal order under the Law.

My guess — and this is no more than a guess — is that they were not meant to exist in the Earth's past; when they do show up in the past they are invaders out of the future, like the caesures, and part of the corruption of Time that seems to be Lord Foul's last and latest play to break the Arch. Their visible effects have been very subtle — things that could easily have happened by other means not involving time travel — for the same reason that the Sunbane was originally subtle. The inertia of the past is enormous, and a time-traveller can insert himself into the stream only as an unnecessary cause: Berek learned about hurtloam from Linden, but could have discovered it another way; the Theomach became ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol, but it could have been some great explorer of the ancient Earth who guided Berek to the One Tree — you see the game. But each intervention pushes the history a little closer to the point where time travel becomes necessary to the past — where the causal sequence cannot be explained without it. And then, I suspect, the Arch cracks and breaks; or so Lord Foul hopes.
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Post by sindatur »

Variol Farseer wrote:If the name of the Insequent means anything, it means that they are out of sequence — not part of the natural causal order under the Law.

My guess — and this is no more than a guess — is that they were not meant to exist in the Earth's past; when they do show up in the past they are invaders out of the future, like the caesures, and part of the corruption of Time that seems to be Lord Foul's last and latest play to break the Arch. Their visible effects have been very subtle — things that could easily have happened by other means not involving time travel — for the same reason that the Sunbane was originally subtle. The inertia of the past is enormous, and a time-traveller can insert himself into the stream only as an unnecessary cause: Berek learned about hurtloam from Linden, but could have discovered it another way; the Theomach became ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol, but it could have been some great explorer of the ancient Earth who guided Berek to the One Tree — you see the game. But each intervention pushes the history a little closer to the point where time travel becomes necessary to the past — where the causal sequence cannot be explained without it. And then, I suspect, the Arch cracks and breaks; or so Lord Foul hopes.
I can buy most of that, but, The Guardian of the One Tree puts a Kink into that, Doesn't it, since it seems to be a "natural"progression for all of Covenant's and Linden's time in The Land?
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)

Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain

Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?

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