How bad is it?

[Rigel]

I fail to see a huge line of demarcation between the 1st/2nd Chronicles and the Last.

I can't wait for TLD to be out and be able to do a marathon re-read of all 10. Has anyone tried one of the 9 out so far?

[Seppi2112]

The lack of an editor (or at least one as involved and competent as with the 1st and 2nd chronicles) seems like the root of the problem. There is all this disagreement between readers in part because of how much work is required to get at the same old SRD stuff. Some are enjoying the work more than others... and some not at all.

The GI mentions that SRD's current editors aren't doing much more than proofing. I mean, hell, Lester Del Ray wanted to "edit" out the entire first half of The One Tree, lol.

[Horrim Carabal]

The lack of an editor (or at least one as involved and competent as with the 1st and 2nd chronicles) seems like the root of the problem. SRD's current editors aren't doing much more than proofing. I mean, hell, Lester Del Ray wanted to "edit" out the entire first half of The One Tree, lol.

As a writer gets more "power" through reputation and sales, it's natural for them to bristle at the thought of an editor going over their work and changing things or cutting things. Also, the publisher trusts that the well-known writer has a built-in fanbase which will purchase their next book whether it's bloated or not.

Whatever issues SRD is having without an editor, they pale in comparison to other high-profile authors. The poster boy for the I NEED AN EDITOR campaign is Stephen King.

[Cambo]

I fail to see a huge line of demarcation between the 1st/2nd Chronicles and the Last.

I can't wait for TLD to be out and be able to do a marathon re-read of all 10. Has anyone tried one of the 9 out so far?

I've re-read the whole thing every time a new book came out. So yeah, I've read all 9 in a row.

[Iolanthe]

I just finished reading all 9 in a row. Now have withdrawal symptoms But at least I shall now be able to get to sleep before 2 in the morning - couldn't put the damn things down.

[Atrium]

Im keeping up my re-reading too. Just finished TWL. Im struck by how much i like Linden in this book. She feels totally credible, a real, complex person thrown into a fantasy world would probably react just like she does in this book. Or as Covenant in the first books. Whatever gripes people have with Linden must come from later in the series or? In the Last Chrons her humanity and complexity flips over into tiresome repetitiousness much too often. I agree with the poster above, weak editing bears a huge responsability for this and for the other criticisms voiced in this thread. Did the books really have to be 800 pages each?

Another reflection: The first and second chronicles were pretty gory. Koriks mission to Seareach was downright scary reading for a teenager like me. And TWL is drenched in blood, blood to use the sunbane powers and blood to feed it. In retrospect, maybe the contrast between horror and fantasy was part of why i liked the books so much? The Last Chrons have so far been more subtle and not held any really scary reading, at least for me. The problems confronting the protagonists feel more abstract and intellectual somehow.

[sindatur]

I did all 9 books back to back in Audio form, prior to my current series, I'm listening to "The Gap". Currently close to being finished with Book 4 of the Gap.

[francois60]

I liked Against All things ending, but I understand the criticism from reviewers: too much standing around talking about what happened rather than advancing the plot. As someone who is often rather obtuse, I do like having things explained to me by the characters, but it got to be too much after they escaped She Who Must Not Be Named.

The first setpiece of the book reads like a WWE event. Every time something momentous is about to happen, it's like entrance music plays and a new character jumps in and cuts a promo.

I also found the deaths of major characters to be mostly meaningless. It almost seemed as if the roster had gotten too big so Donaldson had to make some cuts to get the plot more lean and mean for the Last Dark.

All that being said, the worth of a book in a series is often affected by the rest of the series. If AATE perfectly sets up an awesome Last Dark, then in hindsight it will seem a masterpiece. If Last Dark stumbles, we'll look at AATE as the place where things went off the rails.

We were warned. Donaldson feared that it would be very hard to write the Last Chronicles. Personally, I'm so thrilled to have more to read about covenant and the Land that I'll be happy even if it falls well short of his and the fans' expectations.

[Zarathustra]

Well said. That sums up many of my own feelings.

[peter]

Similarly to Francois and Zarathustra I'm of the opinion that (perhaps) any TC is better than no TC at all (though I don't believe I have been consistent in this view throughout all of my posts - perhaps as the time passes after reading AATE I start to forget just how much I didn't get on with it, in the same manner as how one forgets just how bad a toothache was, and start to crave my next 'fix'. The triumph of hope over experience one could say!).

The editing contribution of Lester del Ray (a legend in the field if ever there was one) and the comments pertaining to it, demonstrate just how much any published book is ultimately the work of multiple contributors (and explain why so much 'self-published/edited' work is crap).

The moment an author gets sufficient power to be able to opperate without the need to adhere to constructive criticism - the chances are he or she is sunk. There may be rare cases where this does not apply but in the main it is true. That anything at all could pull the third chrons back into the same league as the first two is for me at least highly unlikely if not impossible. We certainly read SRD's own comments about the risks of writing a third series, and that he was finding it difficult to write. I believe he made a rather enigmatic comment recently (was it at the time of submission of the first draft of 'The Last dark') that he was undergoing some form of personal problems at present - he did not, I believe, elaborate what - and this cannot be helping. But for all of this, for all my carping and whinning, I begin to anticipate, to exprience that little 'frisson' that says 'not long now boyo, and the whole thing will be within your grasp!'

[Atrium]

I guess i can - reluctantly - agree with the sentiment that "any TC is better than no TC at all". My fear is that there will be too much retconning that risks to falsify and spoil my image of the earlier series. The time travel theme could easily have done this. Hopefully we are finished with that now.


Adding new characters that somehow were there all along, like the Insequent and (worse) SWMNBN can also unbalance the logical structure of the earlier books, and already have done so at least for me. I have a huge problem accepting the idea that there always were another immortal being as powerful as LF present in the land that somehow just escaped the attention of all known observers and that didnt impact events to any noticeable degree. It feels like a cheat.


At the same time i realize that its a bit paradoxical that i demand strict logical cohesion from a fantasy series. But maybe thats a comment on how high regard i have held for SRDs skills as a storyteller and world builder.


As others already have said: How the last book plays out will be crucial to how i judge the whole LCs.

[peter]

But could it ever 'rescue' them for you Atrium. I have my doubts from my own point of view. I may yet be able to see the Last Dark as a 'cracking conclusion' - but I doubt it could ever go further than that. I can't see it somehow pulling the other three books into a new perspective in my mind where they all of a sudden become 'brilliant' in the way the first two Chrons were for me. If he can pull that one off then SRD will have exceded any other literary trick I have ever seen!

[Atrium]

Depends on the definition of "save". In the sense of letting me get past some of my major hangups with the story itself, things i found hard to swallow like time travel, SWMNBN, Insequent, the total lack of dynamic history in the land in 3000 years, these i think a very strong climax that ties many disparate threads together could make me see past. Sort of make me accept the internal logic of the story.


But as for the reading experience itself, my enjoyment of the books, i think that is unsalvable. The first three (exepcions för the first part of FR, which i enjoyed) are simply not written and executed in a style that connects with me. Nowhere near what the first 2 series did. I find myself thinking constantly of how i would like to edit the texts and prompt the author to go in another direction. And thats not a good sign.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

I've seen such a literary "trick", though I'd use a different word, it sounds too simple and not fitting. Perhaps "miracle" is better. It was with a series of books I could barely read at the start. Long-winded, boring, full of details I didn't need in the slightest, some of the characters were interesting, but most not touching me in the slightest. I summoned all my resolve to not drop unfinished books easily I had at the time. It turned out not enough. I stopped reading them. End of the story? Not really.

I'm not even sure now what was the thing that made me read that from the beginning again. I guess it was more like some feeling that an actual reason, later I mentioned a few details that could be a reason for such a decision, mostly just subtle similarities to my other favorite writers.

I'm rarely really at a loss of words, but that's it. I have none to describe my feelings. I felt and still feel... like in love, insane, sick, lost in some other place and not wishing to return, like those books are more a part of me than my own flesh and blood.

How can such a thing happen, are there any ways? Actually, there are. Don't you remember where joy is? The story may get new sense, you may look at the things differently knowing what it was all for, how the jigsaw elements will combine, how the seemingly unnecessary things build the mood and the feel. You may fall in love with it and take close to the heart the things you wouldn't appreciate otherwise. And perhaps the most incredible option - you may become a different person after reading it.

[Zarathustra]

Adding new characters that somehow were there all along, like the Insequent and (worse) SWMNBN can also unbalance the logical structure of the earlier books, and already have done so at least for me. I have a huge problem accepting the idea that there always were another immortal being as powerful as LF present in the land that somehow just escaped the attention of all known observers and that didnt impact events to any noticeable degree. It feels like a cheat.

As I've said before, the way the Insequent were added had all the potential for disastrous results that you've described, so in light of those dangers, I think it was an astonishing bit of retro-fitting. Maybe my opinion will change once I start my Grand Reread and see the logical holes, but right now I don't see them. I think he wove something new into something old with masterful skill.

Ditto with SWMNBN. She was already foreshadowed in the 2nd Chrons. And there has been talk of "banes" being buried beneath KT since the 1st. I think he mined those details well, and came up with something that fits into--and yet expands upon--the story perfectly. The idea that people can ignore grave, slumbering dangers under their feet for 1000s of years is no more surprising in a work of fiction than when it happens in reality. Volcanoes destroy civilizations. Fault lines shift. There's even a parallel with the Worm. I have no problem with any of this.

But as for the reading experience itself, my enjoyment of the books, i think that is unsalvable.

Exactly. That's the problem for me. I'm excited about rereading the 1st and 2nd, but I really dread AATE. I'm going to reread it anyway, for the sake of completion and the effect of reading them all together once they're finally complete, but it will be chore. I'm hoping that I'll see it in a new light, and find it less arduous.

[Ananda]

Adding new characters that somehow were there all along, like the Insequent and (worse) SWMNBN can also unbalance the logical structure of the earlier books, and already have done so at least for me. I have a huge problem accepting the idea that there always were another immortal being as powerful as LF present in the land that somehow just escaped the attention of all known observers and that didnt impact events to any noticeable degree. It feels like a cheat.

As I've said before, the way the Insequent were added had all the potential for disastrous results that you've described, so in light of those dangers, I think it was an astonishing bit of retro-fitting. Maybe my opinion will change once I start my Grand Reread and see the logical holes, but right now I don't see them. I think he wove something new into something old with masterful skill.

Ditto with SWMNBN. She was already foreshadowed in the 2nd Chrons. And there has been talk of "banes" being buried beneath KT since the 1st. I think he mined those details well, and came up with something that fits into--and yet expands upon--the story perfectly. The idea that people can ignore grave, slumbering dangers under their feet for 1000s of years is no more surprising in a work of fiction than when it happens in reality. Volcanoes destroy civilizations. Fault lines shift. There's even a parallel with the Worm. I have no problem with any of this.

I agree. I liked the insequent. If he ever does more "land" stories, I would like to read about them *without* TC et al. I guess that would break the question if it was a dream or not, though.

[Orlion]

Jay once pointed out that SRD works are a sort of 'all or nothing' deal. If you have not read the entire series, you can not say if something could have been written better or not. This was the case with the first two chronicles, and was definitely the case with Mordant's Need and The Gap Sequence. Really, the only time he has written novels that are complete in of themselves are his mystery novels.

Donaldson is a tight writer. He does not bandy words (which may go against some opinions here, to which I says ). This is particularly the case with his series. He does not expound, expand, or get caught up in the journey like Martin and Jordan, he writes things because he feels he needs to write them as such for the purpose of story.

So I think it can only get better (which from my view point is saying something, I believe Against All Things Ending is his best novel to date... somehow even better than This Day All Gods Die). Of course, those novels are only good because of what preceded them.

Anyways, I also want to agree with Z on everything said that does not affect my belief that if Jesus came back in book form, he'd come back as Against All Things Ending.

[peter]

I've seen such a literary "trick", though I'd use a different word, it sounds too simple and not fitting. Perhaps "miracle" is better.

I agree on this point 100%.

Mordants Need has been mentioned. I tried what - three times to read this series (are two books a series ). The last time I got two thirds through the second book and just couldn't continue. I would not have believed the writer of the Chrons could also have produced this......this..... (sound of a veil being drawn over further comment).

[Atrium]

The Insequent are interesting, i can understand why people take a liking to them. In contrast to many (most) other secondary characters in the LC Donaldson actually gives them strong and credible personalities. They have cool powers and are the only good guys (the elohim i dont count as good guys at this stage) that seem to know what is happening, although they insist to keep their mouths shut most of the time. In the absence of the Lords of old these wizards could give us a feeling of that devotion to a good cause and mysticism that stood out as a necessary contrast to the bad guys badness and destructive bent in the first series.


But still, to me they feel as alien and out of place in the Land and the story as if they had just beamed down from a space ship. The way that they appear, fulfill a handy service in pointing the clueless protagonists in the right direction, and then quickly get taken off the table, is jarring. Just when i develop some interest and sympathy for them, they die or go mad. And their powers, although cool, seem totally disconnected from the laws and sources of magic in the Land as i understood them from earlier books.


And as i said in an earlier post, the late introduction of these kind of deux ex machina characters, that were supposedly always there in the first place although lying low, just begs the question: why didnt they do something useful with their amazing powers before? Such skilled teleporters, it would be a small thing for them to have hopped over to Kevin to talk some sense into him, or to have a nice chat over tea with the new Lords about the risks they were facing, or later to Mhoram about why it would be a good idea to remake the staff of law.


Of course i know some potential answers to this question, but they dont convince me. Thats to my point about my trouble with the logical structure of the last chrons, that i pray to the Creator the last book can mend.


SWMNBN on the other hand is just dreadful, in my wiew. Zarathustra, i think you are being very charitable when you write "She was already foreshadowed in the 2nd Chrons." Apart from a song sung by the deceitful Clave, representing their distortion of the Lands history, we get no clues i can recall to the fact that another being as powerful as Foul was ever present in the Land. Didnt anyone ever notice her? Old Lords? New Lords? Seers and Oracles? Urviles, wayhimn? Unfettered stone readers? In the final sequence of WGW Lindens percipience grows to encompass literally all of Mount Thunder, and she never catches a whiff of Ms Foul sulking in the deeps.


To each his own of course, im glad that people can read and enjoy parts i find jarring, like the confrontation with this new superpower. Maybe She can be redeemed too in the last book. But it will take some deeper interaction between the protagonists and her then just random schreeching in a cave.


And, i would add, the main antagonist in the books, Lord Foul, has been absent from the three final installations apart from some short paragraphs of him talking through Anele. Id rather see more of him interacting with the protagonists - could be some real deep and interesting shit, will he and Covenant turn out to be just two sides of the same coin in the end? - than to have another evil god thrown into the mix at this late stage.

[Ananda]

Atrium, the insequent were from outside "the land" werent they? We saw different magics before when we went on the boat ride in the one tree. It was my understanding that "the land" was just a small bit of that world and there was much more beyond its borders that we werent shown. Because of that, I guess, I dont see them as being inconsistent. I just see it as more of the world being revealed.