How bad is it?

[Atrium]

Worm, you came at me for putting one word in your mouth before, and now youre telling me how i would like the whole last chronicles served? And telling me that i like formulaic writers?

I really dont see why some of you guys get contentious when we criticise. Im not satsfied with the story so far, maybe i should be the one taking umbrage when i hear that its just a question of "getting" or not "getting" it? But i really have no problems with anyone liking it. Like i said, i envy you. The topic of this thread however is "How bad is it?". So anyone posting here should expect to read some critical opinions.

Common ground lies in first acknowledging that this is no longer the First Chrons.

Who would disagree with this? If you read the critical posts above youll see that noone is demanding that Donaldson tell the same story all over again. Implying this is saying that you didnt really listen to us.

However, the book not focusing on the Land's beauty was not an issue for me.

Again, the Lands beauty isnt necessarily the issue. The Lands lack of character is. Or should i say one of them. Another: The pshychodrama is written very heavy-handedly i think. Sometimes less is more. Donaldson has managed to bring characters to life and give us an understanding of their internal conflicts with much less words before. We never got inside Elenas head, as i recall, yet her madness was expressed very vividly and vibrantly. It never got boring. Or to make a Tolkien analogy: We felt Frodos pain bearing the ring through Mordor without the writer having to explore it repetitously over several pages of internal monologue. Sometimes less can be more. Of course Donaldson is a different kind of writer. Of course psychodrama is one of his trademarks and one of the things that makes his works special and great. But i think he has overdone it this time. And, like i said before, i think a strong editor should have stepped in and changed course long ago. Nothing wrong with exploring new ground. But exploring can go in different directions. Maybe this one wasnt altogether wisely choosen.

But I don't see why you ask for agreement on some issue when all that's really necessary is understanding the other's point of view.

What makes you think i dont want to understand your point of view? Ive already stated that i welcome the insight you all bring and enjoy the discussion. Agreeing is not necessary for my enjoyment of it. Trying to find some common ground was an interesting side track, nothing more.

Whether or not this 'works' is up to the individual reader, because it amounts to asking, "Does this work for me?"

Of course. This could be a debate ender, since we probably all agree that taste is subjective. But dissecting the book and the last chrons is interesting, so why stop? On the other hand, if the last chrons isnt selling very well, and not convincing a lot of the old fans, maybe even Donaldson would be interested in hearing our critical opinions, as voiced here. Maybe us unbelievers are his best friends, if he wants to reconquer his old fanbase and sales rates?

[Hiro]

Good points and discussion everyone. In a topic with such a *provocative* title to begin with...

I read a lot of conceptualizing and justifications here to explain why the Last (and previous) Chron's are the way they are. Again, I feel it's about whether SRD has touched us or not with his writing. All of us want to be transported and uplifted by these books.

I doubt whether reasoning will provide a road to the deeper enjoyment we crave. "Oh, that's why they teleport a lot, now I get it." (?!) Reading these books is not an intellectual exercise, otherwise SRD could have written a paper on this themes. Rather, through the story and the characters themes are explored, in other words, in an indirect way. So to try to expose the 'direct' way of themes and ideas - most of which is speculation -, is to negate the very fact of SRD's choice of storytelling as a medium.

Which doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a theme or debate about a theme, but that the thematic structure itself doesn't relate to this discussion. Cause I think the real matter is the execution, and not the themes itself.

I understand that things change and time passes and the First Chron's are different etc. etc. etc. The Gap was *very* different from the Chron's. Yet, it's execution was to me brilliant. So, whether something's different or not is also not the point.

And one more thing for WormfotheWorldsEnd and others, please remember that the fact that this discussion is being held, that people take the time and energy to think and write about these issues, is because apparently, THEY CARE. Otherwise, why waste one's time?

[High Lord Tolkien]

Good points and discussion everyone. In a topic with such a *provocative* title to begin with...

And one more thing for WormfotheWorldsEnd and others, please remember that the fact that this discussion is being held, that people take the time and energy to think and write about these issues, is because apparently, THEY CARE. Otherwise, why waste one's time?

Great post.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Good points and discussion everyone. In a topic with such a *provocative* title to begin with...

And one more thing for WormfotheWorldsEnd and others, please remember that the fact that this discussion is being held, that people take the time and energy to think and write about these issues, is because apparently, THEY CARE. Otherwise, why waste one's time?

Great post.

So where IS the thanks button?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Good points and discussion everyone. In a topic with such a *provocative* title to begin with...

I read a lot of conceptualizing and justifications here to explain why the Last (and previous) Chron's are the way they are. Again, I feel it's about whether SRD has touched us or not with his writing. All of us want to be transported and uplifted by these books.

I doubt whether reasoning will provide a road to the deeper enjoyment we crave. "Oh, that's why they teleport a lot, now I get it." (?!) Reading these books is not an intellectual exercise, otherwise SRD could have written a paper on this themes. Rather, through the story and the characters themes are explored, in other words, in an indirect way. So to try to expose the 'direct' way of themes and ideas - most of which is speculation -, is to negate the very fact of SRD's choice of storytelling as a medium.

Which doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a theme or debate about a theme, but that the thematic structure itself doesn't relate to this discussion. Cause I think the real matter is the execution, and not the themes itself.

I understand that things change and time passes and the First Chron's are different etc. etc. etc. The Gap was *very* different from the Chron's. Yet, it's execution was to me brilliant. So, whether something's different or not is also not the point.

And one more thing for WormfotheWorldsEnd and others, please remember that the fact that this discussion is being held, that people take the time and energy to think and write about these issues, is because apparently, THEY CARE. Otherwise, why waste one's time?

Of course. And my question is this: why do I care to write here when everything I say is being ignored or waved away? Not so much the side-issue stuff, but everything I say relevant to the discussion is being ignored in favor of things that don't matter as much.

The Land's "character" (whatever that is) is not the issue in this Chrons, the survival of the Earth is at stake this time.

[Vraith]

Yes, Atrium, taste is subjective.
Yes, Hiro, execution matters.

What I'm trying to get at with my posts here is that tastes can alter...even be changed to some extent simply by deciding. And there is also an execution [maybe "deployment" is a better word] on the part of the reader...
And so, I try with the points/examples in threads like this one to describe how I experience the work, then find something with which I can attempt to show what I mean...not to "disprove" anyone elses reaction, but on the off-chance that in [royal] you it might spark an "AH-HAH" that changes the perspective.
And I read all these posts, and get involved in these dialogues searching for other peoples ideas that do that exact thing for me.

But I draw a line when people make truth claims like:
"The book is crap."
That requires actual arguments/justifications...and since I liked the book quite a lot, I'll argue about it.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I haven't read it. In fact, I just realized that it'd been released. I've read a few reviews on Amazon (and recognized a few of the reviewers), and skimmed a few topics here, and frankly the consensus isn't good. Honestly, should I bother reading it? Keep in mind that I think that both Runes and Fatal Revenant (the title of which I actually had to Google) were awful.

I feel like there might be something redeeming in having read the entire series, but frankly......I dunno.

Thoughts?

I decided to check up on the Amazon stats where part of the overall consensus "isn't good." I counted

(21) 5-star ratings,

(5) 4-star ratings,

(10) 3-star ratings

(eight) 2-star ratings

(5) 1-star ratings.

So by my "reckoning," the consensus by Amazon reviewers was "better than average," with 3 being average, where 26 out of 49 reviewers rated it above 3.

I realize that Cail was considering the overall consensus - based on two sites, Amazon and Kevinswatch - but he only skimmed some thread titles here. So his opinion is based on a personal impression, not on actual figures.

[lurch]

Well..in critique,,there is the show of understanding what it is that is being critiqued. One doesn't call an apple an orange, then proceed to beat it up for not being the right color , texture and taste.

Its been said that the Land is written without character..Kevin's Dirt has reduced the once glorious Land to mere dirt. uuhhmmmm..what part of Kevin's DIRT did one miss? What part of the obvious characterless Land as metaphor for the deadly mendacity of the mundane, blaze', is one not directing their senses to? Further, how interesting it is that there is so much of the Last Chrons spent elsewhere?? either in Time or in the deep bowels of the Land,,talk about character!! Theres plenty of Character in the Last Chrons. The author has taken us to places and spent more time there BECAUSE the Land is No Longer perceivable with Health Sense. The Character is there,,the author has moved it.,,On Purpose.

To take the notion of On Purpose further..this observation of excessive Pyschodrama..First.." excessive" is a subjective observation. There is..imho,,an evolution of what is being referred to as PyschoDrama. What is meant by this term..PyschoDrama..? Linden getting cornered into drastic choices and then making what she feels as a mistake and getting all despondent with the consequences of her choices..or as a poster put it nicely..headlong plunge into despair.??. Point being..its not so much What Linden is thinking and dealing mentally with..but more a show of HOW she thinks.. leads to What She Thinks ..and thus gets all caught up in the despair about. PyschoDrama??..no..more a critique on Modern Man's penchant to rely on Logic and Reason to solve all His problems..Logic and Reason builds a Robot,a predictable,,easily anticipated Robot..Not a Human Being..So,,all those repeated comments about ..do something they don't expect..Lord Foul assumes He has all the choices figured out..etc etc..WELL..Apply that same..choices you never realized you had..to How you perceive what the author has written...is all I can suggest. You might find your own PsychoDrama quite interesting and fantastic.

The author is demonstrating more than a change in style in the Last Chrons,,more than simple Mundane Change,,as in White shirt instead of Black shirt...The author is demonstrating and thus suggesting,,a Change In HOW The Author thus the READER ,,THINKS and PERCEIVES.

Now..not every one reads any book to be suggested to about different ways of thinking and perceiving. But one can't have their cake and eat it too. One can't have the experience of the inside of a caesure and then say the Last Chrons are flat and boring..one can't be transported to waterfalls, blasted dry plains, crystaline snowscapes, craggy mountains, dense lush forests, dripping cold dark caverns et al,,and then make comments like ,,the Land is characterless. My goodness..is not one Sensitive..is not ones Imagination alive to Feel the Lost Deep and Get Lost in the Majestic Castles of the Viles?.. I do not mean to " hurt" anybody,,but,,the author is trying to get the reader in touch with their own feelings,,and ..Imagination..as an Alternate to the Logical and Reasonable way of perceiving and thinking about this..Last Chrons..IMHO..thats what the whole " Mystery" of TC and Jerry in FR was all about. Logic and reason had them as the obvious ..TC and Jerry,,but only after being bludgeoned with clues that had to do with " feel"..intuition..did it become clear those two where NOT the obvious,, not the predictable,,Not the conclusion of Logic and Reason..Just Like The Last Chrons..TC and Jerry..looked like a duck..sounded like a duck..but guess what?..yeaa..they and the Last Chrons.. were not the duck you thought them to be.

So..these Last Chrons..are about getting in touch with your Humanity..not your logical and reasonable prowess..geesh just about any computer these days can out perform You and every other Human when it comes to Logic and Reason..so ..let it go..Like the first paragraph in AATE suggests..theres a completely different direction the author is going..Theres an Infinity inside of you hes trying to get You in touch with. Like Linden..there is a point where you have to stop resisting it,,,and just Trust it,,go with it..see what you discover about yourself down that traverse. A tsunami awaits you.

I'm calling The Last Chrons a Surreal Apple. I am critiquing it in terms of a Surreal Apple.. It all works..hand to glove..fit, fit, fit. And yes..the author's Surreal Apple may not be every ones cup of tea. BUT..how would one know, if you never lifted it to your nose and smelled it,,never open yourself to it and tasted it?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Its been said that the Land is written without character..Kevin's Dirt has reduced the once glorious Land to mere dirt. uuhhmmmm..what part of Kevin's DIRT did one miss? What part of the obvious characterless Land as metaphor for the deadly mendacity of the mundane, blaze', is one not directing their senses to? Further, how interesting it is that there is so much of the Last Chrons spent elsewhere?? either in Time or in the deep bowels of the Land,,talk about character!! Theres plenty of Character in the Last Chrons. The author has taken us to places and spent more time there BECAUSE the Land is No Longer perceivable with Health Sense. The Character is there,,the author has moved it.,,On Purpose.

Yes...on purpose...but the purpose.. you went on to mention... is Deeper than the Lost Deep...
Must conceptualize,,further...

[lurch]

The Purpose..is...You..you're Humanity..your Feelings,Your Intuition,,your Imagination,,You. And as it is for Linden, so it is with the reader. The more one resists, the more one is filled with despair. Kevins Dirt IS the Logical and Reasonable.

[Hiro]

Good points and discussion everyone. In a topic with such a *provocative* title to begin with...

I read a lot of conceptualizing and justifications here to explain why the Last (and previous) Chron's are the way they are. Again, I feel it's about whether SRD has touched us or not with his writing. All of us want to be transported and uplifted by these books.

I doubt whether reasoning will provide a road to the deeper enjoyment we crave. "Oh, that's why they teleport a lot, now I get it." (?!) Reading these books is not an intellectual exercise, otherwise SRD could have written a paper on this themes. Rather, through the story and the characters themes are explored, in other words, in an indirect way. So to try to expose the 'direct' way of themes and ideas - most of which is speculation -, is to negate the very fact of SRD's choice of storytelling as a medium.

Which doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a theme or debate about a theme, but that the thematic structure itself doesn't relate to this discussion. Cause I think the real matter is the execution, and not the themes itself.

I understand that things change and time passes and the First Chron's are different etc. etc. etc. The Gap was *very* different from the Chron's. Yet, it's execution was to me brilliant. So, whether something's different or not is also not the point.

And one more thing for WormfotheWorldsEnd and others, please remember that the fact that this discussion is being held, that people take the time and energy to think and write about these issues, is because apparently, THEY CARE. Otherwise, why waste one's time?

Of course. And my question is this: why do I care to write here when everything I say is being ignored or waved away? Not so much the side-issue stuff, but everything I say relevant to the discussion is being ignored in favor of things that don't matter as much.

The Land's "character" (whatever that is) is not the issue in this Chrons, the survival of the Earth is at stake this time.

That's why we are having a discussion, right? I mean, I'm sorry if you feel that your contributions are not appreciated enough. Perhaps, and I can only speak for myself, I don't feel persuaded by what I've read (content-wise) in your posts. But in my previous post I've given some reasons for this already.

However, you have obviously put a lot of work into them. And I thank you for making the efforts. YOU CARE.

I don't feel that the Land and the survival of the Earth are separate issues at all. They never were. The Arch of Time is not something separate from the Earth, is it? In that regard, I think Atrium's observation regarding the lack of history - and its effect on the present narrative - as compared to the Second Chron's is a flaw in SRD's design. It's not about nostalgia for previous Chron's either, as the posters have made clear, even a devastated arena like in the Second Chron's made sense. When a reader even wonders why one had to go the Land at all this time around...

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Good points and discussion everyone. In a topic with such a *provocative* title to begin with...

I read a lot of conceptualizing and justifications here to explain why the Last (and previous) Chron's are the way they are. Again, I feel it's about whether SRD has touched us or not with his writing. All of us want to be transported and uplifted by these books.

I doubt whether reasoning will provide a road to the deeper enjoyment we crave. "Oh, that's why they teleport a lot, now I get it." (?!) Reading these books is not an intellectual exercise, otherwise SRD could have written a paper on this themes. Rather, through the story and the characters themes are explored, in other words, in an indirect way. So to try to expose the 'direct' way of themes and ideas - most of which is speculation -, is to negate the very fact of SRD's choice of storytelling as a medium.

Which doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a theme or debate about a theme, but that the thematic structure itself doesn't relate to this discussion. Cause I think the real matter is the execution, and not the themes itself.

I understand that things change and time passes and the First Chron's are different etc. etc. etc. The Gap was *very* different from the Chron's. Yet, it's execution was to me brilliant. So, whether something's different or not is also not the point.

And one more thing for WormfotheWorldsEnd and others, please remember that the fact that this discussion is being held, that people take the time and energy to think and write about these issues, is because apparently, THEY CARE. Otherwise, why waste one's time?

Of course. And my question is this: why do I care to write here when everything I say is being ignored or waved away? Not so much the side-issue stuff, but everything I say relevant to the discussion is being ignored in favor of things that don't matter as much.

The Land's "character" (whatever that is) is not the issue in this Chrons, the survival of the Earth is at stake this time.

That's why we are having a discussion, right? I mean, I'm sorry if you feel that your contributions are not appreciated enough. Perhaps, and I can only speak for myself, I don't feel persuaded by what I've read (content-wise) in your posts. But in my previous post I've given some reasons for this already.

However, you have obviously put a lot of work into them. And I thank you for making the efforts. YOU CARE.

I don't feel that the Land and the survival of the Earth are separate issues at all. They never were. The Arch of Time is not something separate from the Earth, is it? In that regard, I think Atrium's observation regarding the lack of history - and its effect on the present narrative - as compared to the Second Chron's is a flaw in SRD's design. It's not about nostalgia for previous Chron's either, as the posters have made clear, even a devastated arena like in the Second Chron's made sense. When a reader even wonders why one had to go the Land at all this time around...

By the way, are you using multiple accounts here?

[Hiro]

By the way, are you using multiple accounts here?

No, why?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

By the way, are you using multiple accounts here?

No, why?

Because you and "Atrium" joined the Watch 6 days apart in 2007, and you always follow each other around here, Ramen and Woodhelvennin sticking up for each other like twins - or twin accounts, known in usenet parlance as "sockpuppets." www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sock+puppet (defs. 1 and 2)

[Hiro]

By the way, are you using multiple accounts here?

No, why?

Because you and "Atrium" joined the Watch 6 days apart in 2007, and you always follow each other around here, Ramen and Woodhelvennin sticking up for each other like twins - or twin accounts, known in usenet parlance as "sockpuppets." www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sock+puppet (defs. 1 and 2)

Well, this is one of the most bewildering and condescending posts I have ever read on this particular forum. And we are not debating politics or religion. What the connection is with the discussion at hand is anybody's guess.

First of all,

Join date Atrium: 27 nov 2007
Join date Hiro: 20 oct 2007
and
Join date TheWormoftheW...: 30 oct 2007

Second, why don't you contact the administrator of this forum to confirm your speculations before you make such a false statement?

I suggest that as soon as you have made up your mind you delete these posts, then I will delete this one as well.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

No, why?

Because you and "Atrium" joined the Watch 6 days apart in 2007, and you always follow each other around here, Ramen and Woodhelvennin sticking up for each other like twins - or twin accounts, known in usenet parlance as "sockpuppets." www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sock+puppet (defs. 1 and 2)

Well, this is one of the most bewildering and condescending posts I have ever read on this particular forum. And we are not debating politics or religion. What the connection is with the discussion at hand is anybody's guess.

First of all,

Join date Atrium: 27 nov 2007
Join date Hiro: 20 oct 2007
and
Join date TheWormoftheW...: 30 oct 2007

Are you implying that you and I are sockpuppets?

[dlbpharmd]

I can attest that Hiro and Atrium are posting from entirely separate IP addresses.

On the whole, this thread has morphed into what I see as a heated but otherwise healthy debate about AATE. I see nothing wrong with that, but let's please keep it civil and avoid any personal attacks.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

See Hiro? It's not necessary to run to the authorities because they are always watching.

[Atrium]

Worm, that was pretty silly of you. Whats with the personal attacks on people that disagree with you?

and you always follow each other around here

Do we? I wouldnt mind, Hiro is a sharp poster and im flattered by the comparison, but come on now!

I think this is problematic:

And my question is this: why do I care to write here when everything I say is being ignored or waved away? Not so much the side-issue stuff, but everything I say relevant to the discussion is being ignored in favor of things that don't matter as much.

Read the thread again! You get a lot of replies. People do care what you write and discuss your opinions with you. But its not like were all gonna roll over and die because you state your views. I dont agree with some of your ideas, ive tried to argue why. Thats how these discussions normally go, no? if you feel that you made a crucial point that didnt get picked up, well, repost it. Like i reposted that i dont really see how the Lands plight is reflected by Lindens inner struggles. Still no reply there.

Lets not drag this thread down to the personal attacks level. Back to the topic!

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I can attest that Hiro and Atrium are posting from entirely separate IP addresses.

On the whole, this thread has morphed into what I see as a heated but otherwise healthy debate about AATE. I see nothing wrong with that, but let's please keep it civil and avoid any personal attacks.

An individual posting from multiple ip addresses is child's play, as you know. But I too tire of all the accusations and fur flying on this thread. I don't know why I even bother pursuing topics that only waste time. The fact is, the negative voices only appear louder than the positive ones. And anyway, goodness and badness are not based on popularity.