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Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Post by peter »

All these questions above - very interesting as they are - serve to illustrate (for me at least) the lack of 'continuity' that has developed in the third Chrons when it is laid alongside "What has gone before". To a certain extent you can ignore this as you read the books (perhaps SRD was gambling that our twenty (what?) five year recall might not be as good as it has proven to be. Whatever the case I think he has taken a great risk in constructing the story in the way he has - and I'm afraid it hasn't worked.
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Post by bikebryan »

Ananda wrote:
Horrim Carabal wrote:
Atrium wrote:the Harrows hypnotic gaze and invulnerability that in an instant made Linden helpless to resist his ambitions for the ring and staff, and the haruchai totally powerless to interrupt. Foul should have sent a raver to posess this guy, and then gone after every power that he desired and enemy he needed to kill.
Hmm...I wonder if the Insequent have much experience with the Ravers? Would this actually work? Or do they have some sort of defenses?
Another insequent could show up and say the possessed ones name and order her to follow instructions maybe? They were able to be compelled by name, weren't they? Or am I thinking of something else? If I am thinking of the right thing, then a raver possessing an insequent would be potentially enslaving himself to the rest of the insequent.

Also, I do remember clearly that the insequent used a power that was similar or the same as the power of white gold (whatever that is!) and, now I am fussy again on the details, but weren't foul and his ravers unable to combat white gold magic? They feared it?
It would be dangerous to them, though, to compel another Insequent by name - even if it enabled them to control a Raver. Every single time we see an Insequent compelled by name to service, it ended up with them going crazy and passing from the world in some form.

Besides, nothing would probably stop the Raver from simply exiting the host as they always seem to do. To my knowledge the only Raver that did not exit a body before it was killed was the one that was killed in the Illearth War - and that Raver was trapped in the body by Wildwood during the Garroting.

As for Insequent using powers like White Gold - I don't ever recall that.
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Post by Atrium »

I also recall something mentioned about how the Insequents magics were related to the wild magic. But so far we havent got a real explanation as to exactly how. Wild magic seem to be more of an instinctive ability to use power. It is not studied and learned, at least not this far into the story. Caerroil Wildwood hints that it can be when he takes the ring from Hile Troy in the climax of TIW. Covenant never LEARNS how to release wild magic with just an effort of willpower or lore, although he uses it instintively on several occasion, and can use it when he so desires after being infused with Lord Fouls venom in the second chronicles.


The Insequent we are told have no power inherent in themselves, but have studied different branches of lore that enable them to wield some sort of magic that we have not encountered before. The example with the Harrow illustrates how their abilities can seem to conflict with what we have so far understood about magic and power in the Land. I mean, just the way he undid the Demondim, which we are told are absolute masters of magic and full of power, a threat that not even the Old Lords could deal with before they sent Kevin into despair, threatens my belief in the internal logic of even the earlier books.
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Post by Horrim Carabal »

Atrium wrote: I mean, just the way he undid the Demondim, which we are told are absolute masters of magic and full of power, a threat that not even the Old Lords could deal with before they sent Kevin into despair, threatens my belief in the internal logic of even the earlier books.
But why? That's the entire point of the Insequent. You said it yourself: they have studied branches of magic and lore which Kevin and the Old Lords, and possibly even the Viles and Demondim had no knowledge of.

Lord Foul himself learned things about magic from the Demimages, so why does it surprise you that the Insequent had secrets that the Demondim hadn't learned?

To me it makes perfect sense. A brain surgeon might not have the well-rounded medical knowledge of the general practictioner, but when it comes to disorders of the brain he can do things the GP has no clue about.

The Insequent are the ultimate "specialists". I don't see a problem with that. It also explains why they can't compete with the Elohim, who are power incarnate.
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Post by Atrium »

Horrim Carabal wrote:
Atrium wrote: I mean, just the way he undid the Demondim, which we are told are absolute masters of magic and full of power, a threat that not even the Old Lords could deal with before they sent Kevin into despair, threatens my belief in the internal logic of even the earlier books.
But why? That's the entire point of the Insequent. You said it yourself: they have studied branches of magic and lore which Kevin and the Old Lords, and possibly even the Viles and Demondim had no knowledge of.

Lord Foul himself learned things about magic from the Demimages, so why does it surprise you that the Insequent had secrets that the Demondim hadn't learned?

To me it makes perfect sense. A brain surgeon might not have the well-rounded medical knowledge of the general practictioner, but when it comes to disorders of the brain he can do things the GP has no clue about.

The Insequent are the ultimate "specialists". I don't see a problem with that. It also explains why they can't compete with the Elohim, who are power incarnate.

The easiest answer is that its far too convenient. It reduces the Demondim to a simple plot device that the author had no more need of, and choose to get rid of in the easiest manner possible.


As to how this affects my belief in the logic of even earlier stories: OK, lets say that the Harrow found the secret to unbind Demondim. He is still facing a whole horde of them. Supposedly ultra powerful beings. Howe can it be that they with all their magics are totally effectless against one mortal? They who could match the old Lords in strength can not get one single blow through one mans defences although he is facing all of them together at once? The interactions of powers here, or as someone before said, the magic math, is reaching quantum physic levels.

As you point out the text offers a rationalization as to how this is possible. Its up to each reader to digest this and find out if it works for them.
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Post by ussusimiel »

Atrium wrote:As you point out the text offers a rationalization as to how this is possible. Its up to each reader to digest this and find out if it works for them.
This is one of my biggest problems with the Insequent and their lore, I can't fit it into the world of the Land. They are mortals (yet they seem to be able to live forever) like the Lords, the Haruchai, the Giants etc. yet their magic seems to transcend that to make them closer to beings like the Demondim. All other mortals' power seems to have roots in the material world of the Land: Earthpower, Wild Magic, the Kemper's gold and so on. It's as if the Insequent defy this unwritten law and in so doing cause me (as the reader) to have to remake the world of the Land (which, so far, I have been unable to do successfully).

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Post by Atrium »

I agree Ussusimiel! The Insequent feel like characters belonging to another book series and fantasy world setting that somehow got dropped into the story. But they do have an interesting potential. I think a good story could be told about them, under other circumstances.
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Post by Rigel »

ussusimiel wrote: This is one of my biggest problems with the Insequent and their lore, I can't fit it into the world of the Land. They are mortals (yet they seem to be able to live forever) like the Lords, the Haruchai, the Giants etc. yet their magic seems to transcend that to make them closer to beings like the Demondim. All other mortals' power seems to have roots in the material world of the Land: Earthpower, Wild Magic, the Kemper's gold and so on. It's as if the Insequent defy this unwritten law and in so doing cause me (as the reader) to have to remake the world of the Land (which, so far, I have been unable to do successfully).

u.
This could be an artifact of those who are present in the land: Roger, Joan, and possibly others (Covenant, Jeremiah and Linden are all possibly dead already).

The land is shaped as a reflection of those persons... maybe the manifestation of the Insequent is in response to that?
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Atrium wrote:OK, lets say that the Harrow found the secret to unbind Demondim. He is still facing a whole horde of them. Supposedly ultra powerful beings. Howe can it be that they with all their magics are totally effectless against one mortal?
That part, at least, is easy to answer. And it's rather backed up by the story as well.

The Demondim are made beings. Because they are made beings, they have a certain weakness: if they can be put together, they can be taken apart. The Harrow, by luck or by skill, has found their Achilles heel. He, and no other, has found the secret of unbinding them. Their structure has a keystone, if you will, and when you remove the keystone their whole structure falls apart.

So it's like the Harrow found the secret entrance into an otherwise impregnable castle. Everyone else storms the gates and dies trying, while he walks in through the secret door without much effort.

And something about it reminds me about Donaldson's line: “Every weakness is a strength misapplied, and every strength is a weakness that has found its proper use.” The Harrow has figured out the weakness that is inherent in the Demondim's strength.

The important point is, it's not the effort that makes the difference, it's the knowledge. And I think that's the main thing about the Insequent. They get their power from knowledge, hard sought and hard won knowledge, not from any innate superior capability. They aren't tapping their inner passion like the Lords, they aren't innate earthpower like the Elohim. They just have solved the puzzles of power. (Isn't there an expression about how you can move a mountain if you find the exact right place to push?")
Atrium wrote:I also recall something mentioned about how the Insequents magics were related to the wild magic.
Yes. Esmer said that the Ardent's teleportation ability was like wild magic. Which was indeed odd.
In [u]Against All Things Ending[/u] was wrote:Cail’s son lifted his shoulders: a shrug of disdain. "The conjoined powers of the Insequent have made you mighty, but they have not altered the nature of your knowledge. The theurgies by which you bypass distances are a wan mimicry of wild magic." His scorn sounded like despair. "They are impotent in my presence."
It's an open question as to in which way the ability is like wild magic. Also, we can't know if it is this one single instance that is like wild magic, or all abilities of the Insequent.

Ardent. Argent. A clue?

Certainly it's a clue that Esmer can block it. This could mean that the Ardent's ability is some sort of "alloy", or related to such.
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Post by Atrium »

The Demondim are made beings. Because they are made beings, they have a certain weakness: if they can be put together, they can be taken apart. The Harrow, by luck or by skill, has found their Achilles heel. He, and no other, has found the secret of unbinding them. Their structure has a keystone, if you will, and when you remove the keystone their whole structure falls apart.

So it's like the Harrow found the secret entrance into an otherwise impregnable castle. Everyone else storms the gates and dies trying, while he walks in through the secret door without much effort.

Sure, that part i also understood from the text. The unbinding idea in itself is not what bugs me. Rather, as i put it in my question:

He is still facing a whole horde of them. Supposedly ultra powerful beings. How can it be that they with all their magics are totally effectless against one mortal?

Accepting the fact that they can be untied by someone who knows the right thread to pull, does this also give that all their magic and power becomes effectless? Like you say, the Harrow has no inherent power, just knowledge. So what stops the Demondim from tearing his mortal body to pieces with their supreme magic powers and knowledge when he is standing there among them, one man against so many? My idea of the unbindning is that it requires targeting one being at a time, as when the Harrow pulls the same stunt against the urviles later. And if the Insequent somehow can make themselves invulnerable against Demondim, what on earth possesed them NOT to intervene in the Lands earlier wars, on the side of the good guys, where they seem to more or less align? The idea of what in effect amounts to invulnerability, as in the Harrow, the Vizard, and maybe the Theomach, has huge implications and at least to me does not blend seamlessly with my idea of how the Land works.


Im sure that some kind of answer can be constructed to these questions. But the point is - does it affect our faith in the logic and consistency of the story? Does it make the Demondim seem reduced? Is it a satisfying conclusion to the dilemma of the Demondim being brought forward in time and blocking the gates of Revelstone?

It's an open question as to in which way the ability is like wild magic. Also, we can't know if it is this one single instance that is like wild magic, or all abilities of the Insequent.

The author himself probably is aware of the risk that the Insequents magic and abilities can seem to hang a bit loose in the Land. Associating them with the capricious wild magic is a way of covering his back.


Regarding the book as a whole, my favourite part after some selective re-reading is definitely the last 100 pages, Covenant solo with the two Humbled racing against time to reach Joan in Fouls Creche. If only the rest of the story could be that straight forward and the text this free of uneccesary repetitions and internal, endless monologues. Some beautiful writing here. Thumbs crossed that this is a prewiew of things to come!
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Post by Nerdanel »

I just had a major idea. We know from the example of the quellvisk that Lord Foul can create custom-made intelligent races with powerful magic. I think Lord Foul created the Insequent.

The Insequent would have come to existence between the Second and Last Chronicles but, due to the wonders of time-travel, percolated themselves into the past too. However, because of how time-travel works in these books, they wouldn't have been able to make a real difference. Berek originally figured the Seven Words on his own. The land west of the Westron Mountains was originally empty of any real challenge for the Haruchai and only fuelled their hubris. The ak-Haru was originally a non-Insequent. It would go on like that. The basic plot would stay the same, no matter how unlikely it had to become to maintain its coherence. People would just ignore things in front of them if at all possible, like how Lord Foul uncharacteristically ignored the implications of seeing an older Thomas Covenant from the future. That was the Arch of Time healing itself.

The Insequent research various kinds of magic and grow powerful, but you can be sure that Lord Foul knows all of their true names. (I think the supposedly-dead Vizard who keeps getting mentioned is Lord Foul in disguise. He would be immune to the punishment for interfering with the Harrow because the Vizard is not in truth an Insequent with Insequent weaknesses.) As a side effect, Lord Foul corrupts not only the Land but the narrative itself. It's corruption on a meta level!

It's no wonder the Last Chronicles were supposed to be so hard to write...
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Post by bikebryan »

Nerdanel wrote:I just had a major idea. We know from the example of the quellvisk that Lord Foul can create custom-made intelligent races with powerful magic. I think Lord Foul created the Insequent.

The Insequent would have come to existence between the Second and Last Chronicles but, due to the wonders of time-travel, percolated themselves into the past too. However, because of how time-travel works in these books, they wouldn't have been able to make a real difference. Berek originally figured the Seven Words on his own. The land west of the Westron Mountains was originally empty of any real challenge for the Haruchai and only fuelled their hubris. The ak-Haru was originally a non-Insequent. It would go on like that. The basic plot would stay the same, no matter how unlikely it had to become to maintain its coherence. People would just ignore things in front of them if at all possible, like how Lord Foul uncharacteristically ignored the implications of seeing an older Thomas Covenant from the future. That was the Arch of Time healing itself.

The Insequent research various kinds of magic and grow powerful, but you can be sure that Lord Foul knows all of their true names. (I think the supposedly-dead Vizard who keeps getting mentioned is Lord Foul in disguise. He would be immune to the punishment for interfering with the Harrow because the Vizard is not in truth an Insequent with Insequent weaknesses.) As a side effect, Lord Foul corrupts not only the Land but the narrative itself. It's corruption on a meta level!

It's no wonder the Last Chronicles were supposed to be so hard to write...
The Insequent exsited before the first trilogy. The Haruchia encountered them long before setting march to the Land and their meeting with High Lord Kevin.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Atrium wrote: And if the Insequent somehow can make themselves invulnerable against Demondim, what on earth possesed them NOT to intervene in the Lands earlier wars, on the side of the good guys, where they seem to more or less align? The idea of what in effect amounts to invulnerability, as in the Harrow, the Vizard, and maybe the Theomach, has huge implications and at least to me does not blend seamlessly with my idea of how the Land works.
Ravers.
If an Insequent were to be possessed by a Raver that Raver could destroy the whole race apparently because it would know all their names.
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Post by Nerdanel »

bikebryan wrote:The Insequent exsited before the first trilogy. The Haruchia encountered them long before setting march to the Land and their meeting with High Lord Kevin.
I thought I explained about that...

Anyway, I think the world of the First Chronicles didn't contain any Insequent. I think the past was retroactively changed to contain Insequent.

A good example of this principle in action is the climax of TPTP where Covenant faces down Lord Foul. Then in AATE Covenant in spirit form time-travels to that very scene, causing Lord Foul to turn and utter a line he very definitely didn't say in the original version of the history that was shown to us in TPTP.
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Post by deer of the dawn »

(Yes, Nerdanel, you did explain. :) )

I'm pretty sure I had that same thought about the Vizard, that he's yet another incarnation of Lord Foul. He does seem to work obliquely, and through others, setting agendas in motion and letting others play them out and pay the price... that's how Foul rolls.

My niggling question about the Insequent is, where do these people come from? They are too sophisticated to be Stowndownors or Woodhelvennin... their culture seems alien to the Land. They seem more from overseas, akin to Kasreyn in mannerisms. The men, anyway-- the Mahdoubt was more simpler, if no more straightforward.
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deer of the dawn wrote: My niggling question about the Insequent is, where do these people come from? They are too sophisticated to be Stowndownors or Woodhelvennin... their culture seems alien to the Land. They seem more from overseas, akin to Kasreyn in mannerisms. The men, anyway-- the Mahdoubt was more simpler, if no more straightforward.
I'd like to know that, too...but I doubt we'll get it [or if we do, a very abbreviated piece that hints at more than it reveals]. When you think about it's all smallish...the places we've seen have been, relatively speaking, if the world is roughly earthsize [which it seems to be]...the map of the Land and surrounding mountains closing it in is what? The size of the US midwest? Elohim land is small, one tree isle is small, the isle of the Braithar and Sandies is small. The Vidik Amir...we know they come from some physical place we've never seen. It's like we have a map with, say, Canada, Australia, Hawaii, and the British Isles and we're trying to guess the rest.
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Post by deer of the dawn »

This is off-topic, but I always find it interesting that the Ramen have this rich, nuanced vocabulary. It bothered me at first, seeing as there is no mention of them having any writing or literature; after a while I resolved it in my mind that their oral tradition is rich and nuanced. After all koinonia Greek, the lingu franca of the Mediterranean world of 2000 years ago, is said to have nuances English cannot approach; yet it was the common language and only a minority could read it.

And yes, there is evidently much more of the Earth outside the Land that we never even get to see.
Vraith wrote:hints at more than it reveals
I love that.
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Post by Horrim Carabal »

This is a great discussion.

The lack of a world map really irks me, I wish/hope we will eventually see one. Yes, I have the Atlas of the Land...not enough.

The analogy of the Demondim as an "impregnable" fortress and the Harrow as knowing where the secret door is is apt, IMO. The key to unbinding them might also grant the knowledge to avoid/deflect/shunt away their magics.

I don't think Foul is the Vizard.

I don't think Foul had anything to do with creating the Insequent.

I think the Insequent and the Kemper might be related somehow. Could Kasreyn be a far-flung one of them?

I think the Insequent probably are aware of (and have protections against) the Ravers. If not, a Raver could have possessed one and defeated any High Lord, even one with the Staff of Law. (and I'm sure the Ravers are aware of the Insequent, so the fact that they have not taken one likely means they cannot).

I think Kastenessen will have a much larger role in the final book than most of you are crediting.
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Post by Vraith »

Horrim Carabal wrote: I think Kastenessen will have a much larger role in the final book than most of you are crediting.
You said a number of things worth at least giving a nod to, but this is the best IMHO...cuz he IS nuts...but he is ALSO Elohim. He DID "break the rules," but he WAS appointed [as far as we know] for "impure" reasons by the others.
[there's a pretty good chance, I've always thought, that he is at least a SYMPTOM of the "shadow" on their hearts...meaning they can only make bad decisions like that cuz they're vulnerable to misplaced blame even with future vision...their essential commitment to "ideological" purity is the source of their blindness/flaw]
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Post by deer of the dawn »

Vraith wrote:
Horrim Carabal wrote: I think Kastenessen will have a much larger role in the final book than most of you are crediting.
You said a number of things worth at least giving a nod to, but this is the best IMHO...cuz he IS nuts...but he is ALSO Elohim.
Good point. Because SRD does seem to follow the human, conflicted, interesting characters rather than the exotic ones, which is why the books have such impact.
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