How bad is it?

Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

Moderators: dlbpharmd, High Lord Tolkien

Post Reply
User avatar
Cail
Lord
Posts: 38981
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners

How bad is it?

Post by Cail »

I haven't read it. In fact, I just realized that it'd been released. I've read a few reviews on Amazon (and recognized a few of the reviewers), and skimmed a few topics here, and frankly the consensus isn't good. Honestly, should I bother reading it? Keep in mind that I think that both Runes and Fatal Revenant (the title of which I actually had to Google) were awful.

I feel like there might be something redeeming in having read the entire series, but frankly......I dunno.

Thoughts?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
User avatar
rdhopeca
The Master
Posts: 2798
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:13 pm
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 12 times
Contact:

Post by rdhopeca »

It's an interesting question. I'm trying to decide if my standards are too low for what qualifies as "good" when it comes to Donaldson's work based on all of the negative reaction. I certainly enjoyed it, have read it twice all the way through and in some places more than that as discussions have occurred. At some point I will go back and read ROTE and FR again and read it again before TLD comes out.

I guess I can see a lot of the complaints about the book, but I generally accept these works on their own merit as individual items (for example, I am not going to quibble about any potentially intended use of Harry Potter naming conventions) mostly because I didn't feel like I was reading the same story when the situation presented itself. Maybe that's a flaw in my reading style.

All this said, I would at least read it so you aren't wondering if you should have read it or not. And for me, I'm ignoring most of the naysayers out there unless they have some valid critique beyond raising the THOOLAH banner (nothing against THOOLAH, I just don't hate Linden...yet). :2c:
Rob

"Progress is made. Be warned."
User avatar
lurch
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2694
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:46 pm
Location: Dahm dahm, dahm do dahm obby do

Post by lurch »

Michael Jackson died for this book , its so bad.

How this book is perceived has every thing to with your frame of mind. Actually , this book establishes once and for all..how you think and perceive, establishes your reality. You control Your Reality.
So..Your question,,can only be answered by You.

I can only suggest a read of it. As demonstrated in my Fart Thread,,How you perceive and think , the author is at play with. Hes having fun in this book and its entirely up to the reader if they are to have any fun or not reading and thinking about this book.

Its unfortunate you thought the previous ones are awful. That thought can only prejudice further. If there is a way for you to let that go, you may find away to enjoy the book. Yet,,even if you don't enjoy this one Now..that doesn't leave out the possibility that someday in the future, you may come around to at least, appreciating it. What have you got to lose?
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
User avatar
dlevere
The Hackmaster
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:47 am
Location: Wilmington, DE
Contact:

Post by dlevere »

I've been ripped off by this tome and Stephen R. Donaldson, in the amount of $25.88.

I bought this book on 10/20/10, and I had the chance to buy it for $17.51 online, but I didn't, because I wanted to read it right away.

What a mistake.

In my humble opinion, Stephen R. Donaldson is running out of ideas, and wrote the Last Chronicles strictly as a money grab.

Think about it.

In 1977, Lord Foul's Bane appeared. I liked the premise of the Anti-Hero who thought that he was dreaming and that the events that were happening to him couldn't possibly be real, and that he had no idea of how to use his ring. The Covenant series was originally meant to be a trilogy, but was so successful that The Second Chronicles was released.

It was then that I noticed that these books were becoming a chore to read, and with the Last Chronicles, I couldn't wait to finish them.

Especially Against All Things Ending.

There are so many things about this book that I didn't like that it's impossible to list them all. The parade of new characters, the killing off of characters that I liked and the keeping of characters that I didn't like, how She Who Must Not Be Named just appeared out of nowhere, all of the loose ends, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Rest assured, I will wait until The Last Dark comes out in paperback before I spend my money on a Stephen R. Donaldson book again.

My two cents worth.
The Hackmaster
Hacking 101
User avatar
Cail
Lord
Posts: 38981
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners

Post by Cail »

My major complaint with the first two LC books is that nothing happens, and what does happen is silly. And confusing. And who cares, because I don't care about any of the characters. In the first 6-1/2 books, every named character was interesting and well-realized.

I hate to spend $20 on a book that I'll read once (and not enjoy), but I guess I'm committed at this point.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
mortem
Stonedownor
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:07 pm

Post by mortem »

I love the man's Covenant series, but this one was awful. It was a real chore to force myself to finish it. =(
User avatar
SleeplessOne
<i>Haruchai</i>
Posts: 571
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:43 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

How bad is it?

Post by SleeplessOne »

I really enjoyed it, and I was one who didn't particularly enjoy the first two books of the LC (particularly FR, which I felt really dragged) ...

pieces start to fall into place.

there were scenes, passages, which recalled some of my most savored tCoTC moments.

also, for the first time in the LC, things happened which made me want to go back and revisit earlier set-ups and foreshadows ...

not sure how spoilered you have been Cail, but a couple of blacked-out points :
Spoiler
* we get some chapters from TC's pov - and despite the difficulties in depicting a character who has spent millenia participating in the Arch of Time, SRD does a great job of plausibly writing our favourite leper without damaging the integrity of the story so far.
Spoiler
* as I mentioned before, there are some moments which made me want to go back and re-examine scenes from earlier books, involving Esmer and the manacles, or Stave's son
Spoiler
* lastly, there are some great call-backs to the two earlier series which made me realise SRD hasn't lost his grip on his own creation - sure, this story is very very different, but AATE made the LC more in-step with what has gone before, imo ..
I was really dreading that AATE might be the final nail in the coffin for tCoTC as far as I was concerned. But now I am back on board - alas I must wait 3 long years for the conclusion to a story which has finally grabbed my interest and commitment ...
User avatar
Vraith
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 10621
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
Location: everywhere, all the time

Post by Vraith »

I like it, I like it a lot.
It's not perfect.
I understand some of the criticisms, and say 'well, yes, but...'
Some I understand and think are just plain wrong.
Some I don't understand at all.
Most of the things dlevere hated are the things I liked.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
User avatar
thewormoftheworld'send
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 am
Location: Idaho
Contact:

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

AATE did not end as poorly as TOT in which the questors got their asses kicked and then they skulked away defeated. And three of the Haruchai "red shirts" were lost in that book for one reason or another. That was a real bummer.
Tales of a Warrior-Prophet has gone Live on Amazon KDP Vella! I'm very excited to offer the first three chapters for free. Please comment, review and rate, and of course Follow to receive more episodes. Two hundred free tokens may be available for purchases. https://www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/episode/B09YQQYMKH

Read my Whachichun Tatanka (White Buffalo) Blog: https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/8175040473578337186
FB: https://www.facebook.com/WhiteBuffalo.W ... unTatanka/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/white_buffalo
wryberg1
Servant of the Land
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:27 pm

Post by wryberg1 »

I really enjoyed it and can't wait for the last installment. The books I enjoyed the least of the covenant series were TOT and Illearth War. And I have never been a fan of Linden. But I especially like how Donaldson is explaining the history of the land in these books.
User avatar
High Lord Tolkien
Excommunicated Member of THOOLAH
Posts: 7376
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:40 am
Location: Cape Cod, Mass
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Post by High Lord Tolkien »

I've said in another thread that this book is my favorite of all the Covenant books so far.
It's even made me forgive SRD for Runes. 8O :biggrin:

Why?
I could give you examples but since you haven't read it yet what's the point?

But, it's like all the little pieces and clues and bits from all the previous books PLUS a TON on new information that all blends in together slowly gathering and building up to a giant fantastic ending.
And that ending is still building up!

Anyone that was disappointed in AATE will appreciate it more when the series is done, I bet.
Spoiler
And.....there's something else that I can't mention at this time without first entering some kind of witness protection program...
:hide:
Last edited by High Lord Tolkien on Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/

[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!


Image Image Image Image
User avatar
earthbrah
<i>Haruchai</i>
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Pensacola, FL

Post by earthbrah »

I loved it.

For me, the whole idea of the Last Chronicles makes this entire saga something of a phenomenon in the writing world. I don't know of another author who let ideas for a series marinade in his mind for 20 years.

The tale is his and is most assuredly not a money grab. SRD is transcending the original uniqueness of the first Chronicles into something truly special in the world of literature.

I love and appreciate him and his story for that reason among many many others.
"Verily, wisdom is like hunger. Perhaps it is a very fine thing--but who would willingly partake of it."
--Saltheart Foamfollower

"Latency--what is concealed--is the demonstrable presence of the future."
--Jean Gebser
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19621
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am

Post by Zarathustra »

wryberg1 wrote:I really enjoyed it and can't wait for the last installment. The books I enjoyed the least of the covenant series were TOT and Illearth War. And I have never been a fan of Linden. But I especially like how Donaldson is explaining the history of the land in these books.
Those were two of my favorite books! Maybe that explains it ... :D

I'm more disappointed with AATE the farther I get into it. It's really becoming a chore to read. I'm slowing down quite a bit and not posting as much in the Reading Along thread, where I was participating in a "mini-dissection." I'm a little more than halfway through, but I think FR was better at this point. The best part of the book (so far) was the direct consequences of the end of FR. In fact, if the first 4 or 5 chapters of this book had been tacked onto FR, I would have thought that book was as good as--if not better than--any book of the first two Chronicles (well, maybe if you cut out the journey to Andelain in FR and just got right to the Resurrection), even if adding those chapters would have made for an anticlimatic ending.

The most disappointing aspect for me has been when major characters meet for the first time. We get some pretty important confrontations in this book, confrontations which have been building for two books, and they are just wasted opportunities, imo.

I do think the writing itself, the prose, is strong. I'm amazed by some of the things Donaldson has to say, and the sheer amount he has to say. Unfortunately, he has both too much and too little to say: the book could have been a lot better if it was cut by 100-200 pages (too much), and at the same time I'm bored by the story and most of the characters (too little). They spend waaay too much time sitting around and talking. And talking. And sometimes sleeping. Maybe eating. And fretting. And not telling each other what's important. And then giving a speech. And then laughing at stuff that isn't funny. And then telling each other how special they are. And having group hugs (I kid you not--wait until you see just who it is having a group hug ... you'll be shocked).

Hopefully the end, or the last 1/3, will redeem it for me.
Last edited by Zarathustra on Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
User avatar
Orlion
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 6637
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
Location: Getting there...

Post by Orlion »

I think a lot of criticisms I've read could have been written by people who haven't read it just as they could have been written by people who had.... it really doesn't seem to talk about the actual story or book.

You've heard all the same criticisms with other authors you've enjoyed. So and so is running out of ideas, I don't like how so-and -so meets their fate, this author is ripping off of "X", it's not written how I would have written it if I could get off my fat-ass and do something with my life....

There are valid criticisms out there ( to give one, I think the pacing would be better for the last book, now I'm expecting it to increase, and I don't know if that's possible!). However, that doesn't have to detract what is still a work in progress. But I think a lot of criticisms out there are there because this has become high-profile stuff. Like Dark Tower, everyone has an opinion on it, but how many of them have actually read the books? What were they expecting? The propagation of it means a lot of people have to attack it so that they feel they have an identity.

The sad thing about that is that you really don't know how it is until you read it...

edited: Z posted before I did, and though what he considers weaknesses I consider strengths, his review I think would be helpful in determining how you'd like the book.
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19621
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am

Post by Zarathustra »

Orlion wrote:I think a lot of criticisms I've read could have been written by people who haven't read it just as they could have been written by people who had.... it really doesn't seem to talk about the actual story or book.
I thought the idea was to not spoil it for Cail by being vague.
edited: Z posted before I did, and though what he considers weaknesses I consider strengths, his review I think would be helpful in determining how you'd like the book.
There's a lot that I like about the slow parts. I've praised these sections before. In fact, I think the first 5 chapters are better than the part where the Quest really gets going. But then the we get a repeat of this "sitting around" due to the two-part structure of these novels. If the climax of the first section had been worth it, I might be more inclined to enjoy the breather, but I feel a little blue-balled and frustrated, if you know what I mean. :twisted:
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
User avatar
Orlion
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 6637
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
Location: Getting there...

Post by Orlion »

Zarathustra wrote:
Orlion wrote:I think a lot of criticisms I've read could have been written by people who haven't read it just as they could have been written by people who had.... it really doesn't seem to talk about the actual story or book.
I thought the idea was to not spoil it for Cail by being vague.
edited: Z posted before I did, and though what he considers weaknesses I consider strengths, his review I think would be helpful in determining how you'd like the book.
There's a lot that I like about the slow parts. I've praised these sections before. In fact, I think the first 5 chapters are better than the part where the Quest really gets going. But then the we get a repeat of this "sitting around" due to the two-part structure of these novels. If the climax of the first section had been worth it, I might be more inclined to enjoy the breather, but I feel a little blue-balled and frustrated, if you know what I mean. :twisted:
Yeah, I was writing that before you posted your review. Which is why I added the edited part. As far as the criticisms I'm talking about, we'll just say I'm referring to ones outside the forum (particularly at Amazon or B&N)... you know, the kind that say that the Wounded Land is a slow read and TC spends the entirety of WGW telling people not to touch him and raping dozens of children.

And I do know what you mean...*shakes head* That better be resolved, dammit!
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
User avatar
Cleburne
Bloodguard
Posts: 991
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:56 pm
Location: City of Verulanium, England

Post by Cleburne »

I,m just past the half way stage I in my humble opinion I,m actually enjoying it , I know there are some slow moments but in general I,m quiet content with my read so far havent had any struggle reading it ,the busy action sections I read quickly and with great interest,happy with the characters and keen to see the outcome of this book should be finished by the weekend . :biggrin:
A lie well told and told often enough,I'm damned if the truth will ever catch up with it!
User avatar
SkurjMaster
<i>Elohim</i>
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:58 pm

Not bad, but...

Post by SkurjMaster »

Dear Watchers,

I too have been struggling with the LC and even more so with this last installment. In some respects, my satisfaction with the story and where it might be going is dwindling. Here's why I think that is (for comparison's sake with others on the Watch):
1) The first Chron's was beyond excellent. In fact, SRD has really spoiled me for anyone else. Only Tolkien's Silmarillion compares (unless you want to count SRD's Gap Series and the first 6 or 7 books of Jordan's TWOT series). I actually read TPTP first and then acquired the other first Chron books and then read them through. I think that SRD's world building as so appealing because it was intertwined WITH the characters and its mythology was there, was a basis for the current context, but was not fully fleshed out. Therefore, it held an attractive and tantalizing mystery.
2) The 2nd Chrons was a real page turner and still had Covenant, although Linden took up a lot of the story. The Land lay in ruins, but there was hope that it would get back to how we remembered it. Old characters returned as Covenant's Dead. But here SRD started to mess with the Land's mythology. Especially those parts dealing with the One Tree and The Worm and a-Jeroth (aka Lord Foul). The story started getting too complex and internal inconsistencies were either created or the stage was set for them there.
3) The third Chrons is not really about Covenant any more. Its the Chronicles of Linden Avery. The mess-up with the Theomach and the Guardian, the imposition of the Insequent, SWMNBN, Covenant's fragmented mind, not to mention being Leper-lite, all contribute to a lot more 'shallow' literary experience with this series. I think SRD missed several opportunities here for A+ story-telling. The Harrow got killed off just as he was becoming compelling. The Ardent was useless. SWMNBN was a mistake. Esmer was a missed opportunity. His ability to squelch access to wild magic was always weird. I never understood it, nor do I think that it was satisfactorily explained. It's wild freakin' magic. It has no limits! Why bring Covenant back if he is not going to use it? Is he not still The Wild Magic? In fact Esmer and the Harrow were THE two most interesting characters in the whole story. We now don't have the two most interesting characters in the whole story! This doesn't even mention Anele. When we learned that 'Anele is the Land's last hope," I expected to see him as a character in the last book. In what way did he live out that assertion?

Now having said all of that, I am still going to finish AATE (despite reading Watch spoilers and reading ahead a little) and I will no doubt read TLD. SRD is still great. They can't all be home runs. SRD's foul ups are still better than most others' A grade work. It is my hope that TLD will bring everything together and justify what happened in the previous books.

Just some thoughts.
User avatar
thewormoftheworld'send
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 am
Location: Idaho
Contact:

Re: Not bad, but...

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

SkurjMaster wrote:Dear Watchers,

I too have been struggling with the LC and even more so with this last installment. In some respects, my satisfaction with the story and where it might be going is dwindling. Here's why I think that is (for comparison's sake with others on the Watch):
1) The first Chron's was beyond excellent. In fact, SRD has really spoiled me for anyone else. Only Tolkien's Silmarillion compares (unless you want to count SRD's Gap Series and the first 6 or 7 books of Jordan's TWOT series). I actually read TPTP first and then acquired the other first Chron books and then read them through. I think that SRD's world building as so appealing because it was intertwined WITH the characters and its mythology was there, was a basis for the current context, but was not fully fleshed out. Therefore, it held an attractive and tantalizing mystery.
2) The 2nd Chrons was a real page turner and still had Covenant, although Linden took up a lot of the story. The Land lay in ruins, but there was hope that it would get back to how we remembered it. Old characters returned as Covenant's Dead. But here SRD started to mess with the Land's mythology. Especially those parts dealing with the One Tree and The Worm and a-Jeroth (aka Lord Foul). The story started getting too complex and internal inconsistencies were either created or the stage was set for them there.
3) The third Chrons is not really about Covenant any more. Its the Chronicles of Linden Avery. The mess-up with the Theomach and the Guardian, the imposition of the Insequent, SWMNBN, Covenant's fragmented mind, not to mention being Leper-lite, all contribute to a lot more 'shallow' literary experience with this series. I think SRD missed several opportunities here for A+ story-telling. The Harrow got killed off just as he was becoming compelling. The Ardent was useless. SWMNBN was a mistake. Esmer was a missed opportunity. His ability to squelch access to wild magic was always weird. I never understood it, nor do I think that it was satisfactorily explained. It's wild freakin' magic. It has no limits! Why bring Covenant back if he is not going to use it? Is he not still The Wild Magic? In fact Esmer and the Harrow were THE two most interesting characters in the whole story. We now don't have the two most interesting characters in the whole story! This doesn't even mention Anele. When we learned that 'Anele is the Land's last hope," I expected to see him as a character in the last book. In what way did he live out that assertion?

Now having said all of that, I am still going to finish AATE (despite reading Watch spoilers and reading ahead a little) and I will no doubt read TLD. SRD is still great. They can't all be home runs. SRD's foul ups are still better than most others' A grade work. It is my hope that TLD will bring everything together and justify what happened in the previous books.

Just some thoughts.
Your critique is a study in nostalgia. As you go farther back in time to the First Chrons everything seems better than it is in the present Chrons.

(Edit: Your critique seems to be going from "great" to "pretty good" to "downright ugly" regarding the Last Chrons. Then you ended by giving Donaldson those high compliments. Huh?)

The First Chrons was not an easy read, it had its sections where the story dragged. I agree that the Second Chrons developed the story's complexity and set the stage for inconsistencies. Some have complained that in the LC Donaldson simply pulled new characters out of his hat, but there was also some of that in the 2nd Chrons (e.g. Hamako), so again it seems there is some nostalgia at play in your critique.

The killing off of some main characters I think is essential to Donaldson's story-telling. And in particular in the present Chrons, everything is dying, so it makes sense that everybody dies. Much of this also ties in to the way Linden blames herself every time. There must be something for Linden to atone for in the end, because unlike Covenant there was nothing like a Lena rape for her to atone for. But she is the same kind of anti-heroic character who, lacking leprosy, has instead a kind of leprosy of the soul due to certain childhood issues. So in a way, the entire story is rather formulaic.
Tales of a Warrior-Prophet has gone Live on Amazon KDP Vella! I'm very excited to offer the first three chapters for free. Please comment, review and rate, and of course Follow to receive more episodes. Two hundred free tokens may be available for purchases. https://www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/episode/B09YQQYMKH

Read my Whachichun Tatanka (White Buffalo) Blog: https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/8175040473578337186
FB: https://www.facebook.com/WhiteBuffalo.W ... unTatanka/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/white_buffalo
User avatar
Cail
Lord
Posts: 38981
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners

Post by Cail »

Well, I bought it tonight. It's going to the top of my reading pile, so I'll either start raving about it or bitching about it shortly.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Post Reply

Return to “Against All Things Ending”