How bad is it?

[lurch]

Well, I bought it tonight. It's going to the top of my reading pile, so I'll either start raving about it or bitching about it shortly.

Good for you. I would suggest to withold comment until you finish . Why? Because this book is subtly about change,,and the author seems to change things as well as the readers expectations by the time hes done. ..imho.

[Rigel]

Well, I bought it tonight. It's going to the top of my reading pile, so I'll either start raving about it or bitching about it shortly.

Good for you. I would suggest to withold comment until you finish . Why? Because this book is subtly about change,,and the author seems to change things as well as the readers expectations by the time hes done. ..imho.

That's what I did, and I'm glad I did. In fact, I banished myself from these forums from the time I got the book until a few days after I finished it, and I'm glad I did

Donaldson still has his punch... I can't think of any other authors whose work makes me stop reading to soak in what I just experienced, yet he consistently does.

[Zarathustra]

That's what I did, and I'm glad I did. In fact, I banished myself from these forums from the time I got the book until a few days after I finished it, and I'm glad I did.

Yeah, I wish I'd done that, too. I've been very careful not to read threads that obviously contain spoilers. You can usually tell by the titles. But then you have threads like this one where someone who hasn't bought the book is asking for an opinion--a nonspoiler opinion, one would assume--in which you have people spoiling exactly who dies. Thanks a lot. How thoughtless.

I think I'll drop out of this forum until I'm done.

[SkurjMaster]

Watchers,

How can you fully discuss some of these topics without at least 'Spoilering' a little? If the creator of the thread wanted to hear only the most esoteric of critique's, then he/she should have said so. How do you discuss how bad it is without talking about what you find 'bad?' Granted, I find in my recent post to this thread that I could have been less pointed about some of what was contained there, but ....

Okay, maybe a statement such as "I was not content with the event involving Anele might have been better, but then you are just limited to making very surface comments on the 'badness' of it. So, you can't really discuss it.

Zara, I didn't mean to be thoughtless and spoil anything for you, but if things are that easily spoiled for you, I mean really, really Spoiled, the Watch is probably a bad place for a while. Knowing a hint of anything to come is probably bad.

[High Lord Tolkien]

That's what I did, and I'm glad I did. In fact, I banished myself from these forums from the time I got the book until a few days after I finished it, and I'm glad I did.

Yeah, I wish I'd done that, too. I've been very careful not to read threads that obviously contain spoilers. You can usually tell by the titles. But then you have threads like this one where someone who hasn't bought the book is asking for an opinion--a nonspoiler opinion, one would assume--in which you have people spoiling exactly who dies. Thanks a lot. How thoughtless.

I think I'll drop out of this forum until I'm done.

Well, you did have to request to join the forum and Sea made it clear a while ago that the spoiler rule has been lifted.
You really can't blame anyone but yourself.

[Bill the Cat]

I thought it was outstanding. Exactly what SRD was going for. The headlong plunge into dispair.

[Zarathustra]

Well, you did have to request to join the forum and Sea made it clear a while ago that the spoiler rule has been lifted.
You really can't blame anyone but yourself.

The spoiler rule was lifted, but with qualifications:

please make sure if you create a new thread that your thread title does not include spoilers. ...This way, people who are visiting the forum and haven't read the entire book can still visit the forum without coming across spoilers. If a moderator decides your thread title contains a spoiler the title will be amended and you will receive a pm to let you know.

So the issue of spoilers and consideration was still on the table.

To get more specific for my case:

This means: for those who haven't read the book we recommend you do not come to this forum until you have read the book or, if you have only read part of the book, you are careful as to which threads you choose to read. So, basically, this forum will run like all the other chronicle forums. Create as many threads as you like. Discuss what ever you want to discuss without using spoiler tags.

I was being careful which threads I read, as per the advice above. This thread was started by someone who hadn't bought the book, much less read it. One would assume that major character deaths wasn't the information Cail was looking for.

However, I do acknowledge my own fault, as referenced in the guidelines here:

Please note: If you haven't read the entire book and you choose to open a thread we can't guarantee you won't encounter spoilers. So we recommend you don't read threads until you've finished the entire novel or you create your own thread to discuss what you want to discuss.

I wasn't asking for a guarantee, just a little common courtesy with a dash of common sense. Clearly, people here aren't reading the guidelines. And that ain't me.

[Atrium]

Im almost done reading now, and i understand some of your criticism.

First of all im realizing that i shouldnt have read the spolier thread here, that predictably spoiled my reading to some extent.

Second i realize that i read the first two series when i was quite a bit younger, and had a different mindset to all things fantasy. The two best books of the Covenant series for me is without a doubt TIW and TPTP, at least in part probably because i read them first.

But there is still a interesting story here, with many psychological undercurrents and a lot of intelligence. I just wish it didnt give me the feeling of "too little butter spread on too much bread". The pacing makes me feel impatient. I almost constantly want to skip ahead. Ill give the book a reread when ive digested my first impressions, i think its worth that. There are guld nuggets of excellent writing here, that i unpatiently skimmer through.

Like someone else said, the part i liked most so far was the first 5 chapters in Andelain. When the action picked up i got less interested, not more. The Lost Deep didnt impress me as much as i had hoped to be impressed. Sometimes the characters, especially Linden, did things that made me want to kick her, and im not a Linden hater. Why did she leave her companions behind in the water cave? Was it so hard to figure out that their help could be usefeul? Why did she break the construct? Wasnt it very easy to figure out who would then intervene and who would not? And the SHE-bane... I dunno. Could develop into something interesting later on (im sure it will) but it wasnt all too scary then and there, just singlemindedly annoying. And SHE didnt bring much high-quality conversation (i love the way Donaldson gives voice to his supreme bad guy, Lord Foul. And sometimes the ravers also. You almost feel the evil dripping in the air. I think the last series as a whole probably suffers a bit from the fact that the best bad guys out there are hidden. I dont know about you, but i would have loved to get more interaction, especially with Foul. Why does he always wait until the last book to come to the stage? OK, i understand the dramathurgical reason, but still. Kastenessen doesnt bring much in the way of character interaction either, just a shrieking force of nature. And Roger, well he´s bad, but we never get inside his head. SHE could have been a great help to the story in letting the characters interact with one of the major bad players in an interesting way, but it didnt stir me.).

Well, i still have the final part to go through. Unfortunately i already know what will happen. But thats not Donaldsons fault, but my own. Im sure it will be an interesting read, as will the last book. Ill say more on the subject when im done reading.

[Ur Dead]

the SHE-bane...

So if the Arch is torn down and Foul is loose. Foul will go to battle the Creator.

But if I was him, I would watch my back..

the SHE-bane... may be on his tail.. and she is mad as hell.

[lurch]

the SHE-bane...

So if the Arch is torn down and Foul is loose. Foul will go to battle the Creator.

But if I was him, I would watch my back..

the SHE-bane... may be on his tail.. and she is mad as hell.

Perhaps it is the Worm that should be watching its back? A " forbidding" has been said to be required to stop the worm. She Who MUST NOT Be Named..as a " name" sure sounds like a forbidding.

btw..your avatar is the perfect train wreck.

[Cagliostro]

I haven't started the book yet, and I had lots of boredom throughout the first two books of the FC, but most Donaldson books take a long time to start in my opinion. I remember the first time I read The Wounded Land and how much I had trouble getting used to new characters and a screwed up Land. It shocked me and made it extra difficult for me to get into it. However, Donaldson is fantastic at endings to stories. It's the journey to that point that frequently gets tedious on first reads, but kinda comes alive a bit for me once I see all the setup. He's kind of the anti-Stephen King.
Fortunately, I started reading the first two chronicles just after WGW was in bookstores. This waiting business is for the birds.

[earthbrah]

Cagliostro wrote:

This waiting business is for the birds.

Dude, I hear that!

[peter]

The Last Chrons have failed on so many levels to true devotees of the first and second that it is almost impossible to know where to start. The Land is no longer beautiful and colourful as it was in the first chrons, or dangerous and strange as it was in the second. Kevins dirt has reduced it to - well - dirt. The entire 3rd series to date has lacked purpose and direction (no significant quest, no significant battle/seige, no Lords etc.) just endless set peice after set peice with Linden (and TC in the last book) asking endless questions (the wrong ones) and in turn recieving meaningless answers.

I have lived in hope that the weak start to the 3rd series would be turned around in books 3 and 4, but this is clearly not to be. For a while I told myself that 'I like the fleshing out of the Land's past and mythology' but now at last I'll admit I don't. I want to go to the land of the Giants. I want to go to the mountains with the Haruchi. I want wonder, and fear, and exitement, not Lindens endless agonizing over her catatonic son.

But, lets face it - it aint going to happen - unless that is one of you guys takes up the mantle and writes the 3rd series as it should have been done. And - I still say that the 1st and 2nd Chrons have given me more pleasure than probably ANYTHING I have done in my life, so for that reason, SRD - I salute you and give you my eternal gratitude (as well as about 20 quid every 5 years).

[Atrium]

The Land is no longer beautiful and colourful as it was in the first chrons, or dangerous and strange as it was in the second. Kevins dirt has reduced it to - well - dirt.

Agreed! My big gripe with the last chrons is that the main protagonist from the earlier books never makes an appearance. And with main protagonist im talking about the Land. Of course Covenant is the official protagonist, but i hated him throughout at least the first 2,5 books. What really enamoured me was the Land itself and the uncompromising love felt for it by its people. And although the Land was ravaged and dying in the second chronicles, i was still in love with it, and eager to see it healed (and avenged).

The last chronicles presents the land in a bleak and 2-dimensional way. It looks to me more like the backdrop of a theater than the vibrant and colorful place i remember. The lower Land, as presented in the second part of AATE, is a depressingly vacant and bleak wasteland with no redeeming or exciting features. Of course you can always defend this presentation by saying that it is the authors intent to give us this image of a 2-dimensional and spiritually empty Land to reflect the disastrous effects of Kevins Dirt and the Masters control. Obviously Donaldsons writing uses a lot of suggestive techniques to put his readers whatever mindset he wants them. But i would contest that thats maybe where he would have needed to be challenged by a strong editor questioning his whole setup. Frankly, the psychodrama of Linden Avery isnt compelling enough to bear the whole weight of four books. If i were to edit the Last Cronicles i would cut down a lot on the internal monologues and talking and try to bring the readers out of Lindens head and into the Land. I bet the seismic upheavals from the editing fights would create a new Landsdrop

[timetraveler8]

Oh no, your (atrium and peter) posts have planted an awful idea in my head that I had banished while reading the First Chronicles -- maybe the Land isn't real after all! Then again, the theme of "unbelief" would be fun to see come back, though I am not sure how it could fit into the current setup without all of us choking on it.

[Vraith]

I couldn't disagree more. I have a fair number of technical criticisms, but:
The conflicts, depth, richness, texture, complexity, imperatives...the sheer scale and mass...are all superior.

Of course everyone's free to like or dislike, but [without really trying to dis anyone too seriously] as far as I can tell, most of the Linden haters are missing the point completely. Call it her 'psychodrama' if you like, but as I see it Linden pretty much IS the Land, in exactly the same way that TC is the White Gold. Her troubles/conflicts/suffering [which many are so willing to chatter about] AND her tremendous strength/determination/potency [which are so often conveniently ignored] are precisely the ravaging and triumphs of the Land.
It's like poo-pooing the Parthenon because it's crumbly, or demeaning a torture survivor cuz she's not happy and pretty anymore.

I also find it ironic that so many don't like that there is so much asking/questioning/uncertainty/lack of confidence in light of the peoples in the books that DO claim answers/surety...and what happens to them because of it.

[Atrium]

Just for the record id like to point out that i was by no means a Linden hater until this book. I liked the addition of another main protagonist back in the second chronicles, i liked that Linden wasnt a cliché, but rather another complex anti-heroe like Covenant. I loved her character development. But after another book told almost exclusively from her repetitive, self-flagellating perspective, im soon ready to join that holy orden of haters. Whats the point with character development if they regress all the time?

I havent really interpreted the story so far as Linden symbolically representing the Land. Covenant seemed to me to reflect the land back when he was the main protagonist, his leprosy - the ritual of desecration/corruption of earthpower etc. But as far as i can tell Donaldson has dropped those symbolisms by now. Or maybe not - since Covenant is dying rapidly from his illness, and the land is about to die very soon too. Linden going after her adopted son, regardless of consequences, might be a symbolism of uncompromising love, but i have a hard time feeling what shes feeling there.

Concerning the land as protagonist or backdrop, what has made a strong impression on me in the last 3 books? Places like Salva Gildenbourne and The Lost Deep could have been used to great dramatic effect. Didnt really get to me. And the people seem to lack so much in character when contrasted to the inhabitants of old. The lower Land as seen in the last part of AATE, what was that? A geology lesson?

I dunno, maybe im just getting too old for fantasy. But i still reread the older books, and still love them.

[peter]

Well said Atrium. I have defended Linden repeatedly in these pages for the very reason that I like her as a charachter - or at least have done so up until now. But SRD has pushed it and pushed it with her domination of the whole of series 3 at the expense of plot, charachterisation, and crafting the rich landscapes we know he is capable of. Enough is enough. Vraith, you cannot deny series 3 is fundamentally different from the 1st and 2nd chrons - and for me at least it does not work. That you actually prefer it to the earlier works from which it is so estranged can only mean that you lean toward the deep, internal soul searching type of works that the russians are so good at rather than good old fashioned story telling. Nothing wrong with that - it's just not what SRD did in the first two Chrons. We (perhaps more shallow) individuals who prefer the 'old style' Chrons over the new cannot be blamed for feeling somewhat let down by what has been delivered. I once went to see Bob Dylan live and he did all my old favorite songs - but all to new completely unrecognizable tunes. It was his right as an artist - but I didn't like it. And I don't like what SRD has done with the Chrons. End off.

[Orlion]

Vraith, you cannot deny series 3 is fundamentally different from the 1st and 2nd chrons - and for me at least it does not work. That you actually prefer it to the earlier works from which it is so estranged can only mean that you lean toward the deep, internal soul searching type of works that the russians are so good at rather than good old fashioned story telling. Nothing wrong with that - it's just not what SRD did in the first two Chrons. We (perhaps more shallow) individuals who prefer the 'old style' Chrons over the new cannot be blamed for feeling somewhat let down by what has been delivered.

You mean the other Chronicles weren't deep, internal soul searching types of works? In my opinion, the character of Thomas Covenant in the First Chronicles has a lot in common with Rodya Raskolnikov from Crime & Punishment... I would have written a paper on it if the teacher had allowed it.

There is a different voice in these books, but I still think they have the same deep, internal soul searching centered themes that they have always had. Just my opinion, of course.

[earthbrah]

Orlion wrote:

I would have written a paper on it if the teacher had allowed it.

As a teacher myself, I'd like to say how displeased I am to hear this. Not because I know the Chronicles and would have loved to read your analysis, but because "truth is in the eye that perceives," and by disallowing you to pursue your own inquiries, I believe this teacher limited your learning or expression thereof.

And back on topic, I'd like to say that 20+ years passed between the 2nd Chronicles and these Last. SRD most likely changed as a person a good deal, and his writing of these Last Chronicles is no doubt an expression or extension of that change.

If TC is the white gold, and Linden is the Land, then might I posit that SRD is the Chronicles... The entirety of these works is a reflection of who he is as a person and artist. I love his work because of what it is; I love his work because of who he is.