How bad is it?

[Orlion]

Orlion wrote:

I would have written a paper on it if the teacher had allowed it.

As a teacher myself, I'd like to say how displeased I am to hear this. Not because I know the Chronicles and would have loved to read your analysis, but because "truth is in the eye that perceives," and by disallowing you to pursue your own inquiries, I believe this teacher limited your learning or expression thereof.

To be complete in my story, this was a college course in Russian Literature. The only reason why she didn't let me is because she was unfamiliar with the Chronicles so couldn't tell if I'd be BS-ing it. *shrug*

Ah well, maybe some day I'll do it for the lol's

[Zarathustra]

<Poking my head warily into the discussion ... seeing no spoilers ... thanks guys>

I don't think the problem is Linden. I think it is Jeremiah. If there were no Jeremiah, Linden would be focused on Covenant instead of her son. It would redirect the focus back on the protagonist we all know and love, rather than upon a lifeless kid none of us care about. Even seen exclusively through Linden's eyes, the POV would still be focused on Covenant. That would have made a huge difference in the direction of the story.

I like the point about the bad guys being vacant. That's a serious drawback. When they're not frustratingly off-stage, they appear out of nowhere. They go from ambiguously and conveniently out of reach, to full-on in your face in a blink of an eye. That kills any drama and sense of suspense in the confrontation. It reduces these characters to plot devices. They might as well be storms or earthquakes. They aren't characters.

But not only are the bad guys vacant, but so are many of the good guys. I'm not even talking about the Ur-viles and Waynhym who could show up and help at any moment, but don't. I'm talking about characters that are just standing there, doing nothing. Covenant. Jeremiah. Anele. Even Linden takes a turn. God, what is it with all these people who aren't *present* all the time? It's like musical chairs of the mind: there are only so many dramatic chairs for SRD's characters to sit in, and once the music stops, somebody has got to go catatonic for a while. It's like SRD can't write a scene with too many people, so he lets some go to sleep for a while when another character has something important to do, so that they won't force him to come up with an action for them. It's WAY too overused. It would be different if it felt like it actually served the plot--or the characters. But it feels more like a writing short-cut to provide more room for boring speeches and Linden's psychodrama.

On second thought ... I suppose that *is* serving a character, but the entirety of Linden's psychodrama is frustration over the characters who are absent and self-pity over her mistakes in trying to make them present. She wouldn't have any psychodrama at all if everyone she loved was *there.* Hence, it still feels like a plot device, thrust upon us for no other reason than to manufacture tension ... something for which Linden can pine away and make mistakes.

The goal of this story has been poorly chosen from the very beginning. It has always been Jeremiah. That completely undermined what the readers were wanting: Covenant.

[Orlion]

Nice post, Z!

Personally, I don't mind the bad guys being a sort of "force" instead of "characters". There's a certain aesthetic to it that pleases me

Also, I believe that the POV character (Linden Avery) pretty much views them as such... and it's a huge blind spot. During TC's POV, I get the impression that he doesn't view Roger, Joan, Kas, or even Foul as forces. Of course, an interesting inquiry is whether or not one viewpoint is better than the other.

[earthbrah]

Zarathustra wrote:

She wouldn't have any psychodrama at all if everyone she loved was *there.*

I agree with you on this point, as well as with much of what you say about Linden's psychodrama. For me, it has been too much at times as well. But now both TC and Jeremiah are healed, for all intents and purposes. They should be "present" throughout TLD.

The goal of this story has been poorly chosen from the very beginning. It has always been Jeremiah. That completely undermined what the readers were wanting: Covenant.

Well, that presumes that Jeremiah is the goal of this story. I'm not convinced. SRD has himself stated that these Last Chronicles are called The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant for a reason, (but I can't find the GI quote right now...).

Myself, I don't believe I know the goal of the story, at least not down to its particulars. I think that Donaldson may yet wow and surprise us all with TLD. Or not...it's just my belief...

[danlo]

Linden pretty much IS the Land, in exactly the same way that TC is the White Gold. Her troubles/conflicts/suffering [which many are so willing to chatter about] AND her tremendous strength/determination/potency [which are so often conveniently ignored] are precisely the ravaging and triumphs of the Land.

I agree with this, I'm just past p. 400 and I really like this book. Not only because it started to really pick up after p. 300 but because it is Donaldson.
I won't even look at the bad reviews because I feel blessed that the man is actually writing this-did he have to? Maybe for the money, I don't know and don't care, the mere fact that we're allowed to go to the Land at all is a privilege I can't even begin to describe. It was a little slow at first and I too was screaming at Linden. But forcing myself to read faster, disregarding things we already knew (after talking to two people at SRD's reading who were reading the The Last Chronicles as their first Chronicles experience I now realize that a lot of the back-filler is for them not for us lifetime aficionados) it started to move and began to become a great read.

After p. 350 Donaldson begins to weave in some very interesting takes and patterns from the original Chronicals like

Spoiler

the ur-vile/Waynhim histories and prophecies (or fore-sight) tied the original Chronicles to these books in an amazing and heartfelt way, to me and I'm starting to see some other fantastic other retro patterns and answers beginning to come to light

.

I agree that the huge conflagration at Salva in FR was a bit of a confusing circus, but now that I can somewhat see what the characters look like

Spoiler

I'm not kidding, for example the Swordmainnir, aside from a little bit of the Ironhand and one without an arm all seemed indistinguishable, to me

To bad it took a number of

Spoiler

deaths to bring the characters more in focus for example: just by dying Galt takes on a MUCH fuller personality

.

[Vraith]

Actually, Z, in a general way what you say connects to one of my "technical" criticisms.
It seems that there's a lot of zoning out of char's. But, I think in a number of places, it's a conflict of there being so much text/detail that, as readers, we lose the urgency/tension in the fact of how fast things are actually happening.
In a way [probably bad analogy warning]: It's like seeing a slow motion Jet Li battle...and forgetting that it's slow motion, wondering why the bad guy is just watching the head kick coming, and what all the other people are doing standing around.
There are a few variations of this text to acts conflict.

[Hiro]

<Poking my head warily into the discussion ... seeing no spoilers ... thanks guys>

I like the point about the bad guys being vacant. That's a serious drawback. When they're not frustratingly off-stage, they appear out of nowhere. They go from ambiguously and conveniently out of reach, to full-on in your face in a blink of an eye. That kills any drama and sense of suspense in the confrontation. It reduces these characters to plot devices. They might as well be storms or earthquakes. They aren't characters.

But not only are the bad guys vacant, but so are many of the good guys. I'm not even talking about the Ur-viles and Waynhym who could show up and help at any moment, but don't. I'm talking about characters that are just standing there, doing nothing. Covenant. Jeremiah. Anele. Even Linden takes a turn. God, what is it with all these people who aren't *present* all the time? It's like musical chairs of the mind: there are only so many dramatic chairs for SRD's characters to sit in, and once the music stops, somebody has got to go catatonic for a while. It's like SRD can't write a scene with too many people, so he lets some go to sleep for a while when another character has something important to do, so that they won't force him to come up with an action for them. It's WAY too overused. It would be different if it felt like it actually served the plot--or the characters. But it feels more like a writing short-cut to provide more room for boring speeches and Linden's psychodrama.

Very sharp observations. You clearly lay down the reasons why there is not more suspense in the story, instead of constant surprises.

The point is not whether things work on or for a thematic level, - it must *mean* something -, but whether the story engages the reader. Judging by my own reaction and others here, SRD is not so successful in this last regard, unfortunately. Because so many questions and issues are raised regarding the basic narrative structure of these Chron's. I.E. some of us are distracted by the sound of the narrative gears grinding. This is not a good sign. Therefore, although I appreciate SRD's ambition, I find him not so successful in these books.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I couldn't disagree more. I have a fair number of technical criticisms, but:
The conflicts, depth, richness, texture, complexity, imperatives...the sheer scale and mass...are all superior.

Of course everyone's free to like or dislike, but [without really trying to dis anyone too seriously] as far as I can tell, most of the Linden haters are missing the point completely. Call it her 'psychodrama' if you like, but as I see it Linden pretty much IS the Land, in exactly the same way that TC is the White Gold. Her troubles/conflicts/suffering [which many are so willing to chatter about] AND her tremendous strength/determination/potency [which are so often conveniently ignored] are precisely the ravaging and triumphs of the Land.
It's like poo-pooing the Parthenon because it's crumbly, or demeaning a torture survivor cuz she's not happy and pretty anymore.

I also find it ironic that so many don't like that there is so much asking/questioning/uncertainty/lack of confidence in light of the peoples in the books that DO claim answers/surety...and what happens to them because of it.

You're one of the few on this forum who "gets it," and then you even go beyond "getting it" to explain things that went over my own head.

Donaldson is primarily a conceptual writer. If it can't be explained abstractly, then it won't exist in his books. Your theory that those characters who claim to have answers "and what happens to them because of it" is so potent, that anybody who reads it should give up on Linden bashing immediately.

Your idea deserves its own thread.

The overall concept seems to be (as I've stated before): "From weakness comes strength, and from strength - weakness."

I do not say that strength is "power," although it could be. But observe the Masters who disdain power but have developed their own form of strength.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

<Poking my head warily into the discussion ... seeing no spoilers ... thanks guys>

I like the point about the bad guys being vacant. That's a serious drawback. When they're not frustratingly off-stage, they appear out of nowhere. They go from ambiguously and conveniently out of reach, to full-on in your face in a blink of an eye. That kills any drama and sense of suspense in the confrontation. It reduces these characters to plot devices. They might as well be storms or earthquakes. They aren't characters.

But not only are the bad guys vacant, but so are many of the good guys. I'm not even talking about the Ur-viles and Waynhym who could show up and help at any moment, but don't. I'm talking about characters that are just standing there, doing nothing. Covenant. Jeremiah. Anele. Even Linden takes a turn. God, what is it with all these people who aren't *present* all the time? It's like musical chairs of the mind: there are only so many dramatic chairs for SRD's characters to sit in, and once the music stops, somebody has got to go catatonic for a while. It's like SRD can't write a scene with too many people, so he lets some go to sleep for a while when another character has something important to do, so that they won't force him to come up with an action for them. It's WAY too overused. It would be different if it felt like it actually served the plot--or the characters. But it feels more like a writing short-cut to provide more room for boring speeches and Linden's psychodrama.

Very sharp observations. You clearly lay down the reasons why there is not more suspense in the story, instead of constant surprises.

The point is not whether things work on or for a thematic level, - it must *mean* something -, but whether the story engages the reader. Judging by my own reaction and others here, SRD is not so successful in this last regard, unfortunately. Because so many questions and issues are raised regarding the basic narrative structure of these Chron's. I.E. some of us are distracted by the sound of the narrative gears grinding. This is not a good sign. Therefore, although I appreciate SRD's ambition, I find him not so successful in these books.

Didn't you find the Lost Deep episode suspenseful? Did SHE simply jump out from behind a corner? How about opening the Door, pulling the wrong strand of magic brings the entire bridge down. And so on.

[Zarathustra]

Didn't you find the Lost Deep episode suspenseful? Did SHE simply jump out from behind a corner? How about opening the Door, pulling the wrong strand of magic brings the entire bridge down. And so on.

In one sense, SWMNBN did come out of nowhere: we've never heard of her before. But in another sense, her slowly plodding behind our Heroes when She could catch them at any time isn't suspenseful, it's the old cliche of prolonging the moment of confrontation for no other purpose than to manufacture suspense. I said elsewhere (Reading Along thread, I believe) that it reminds me of the Austin Powers joke which makes fun of Bond villians who could kill Bond at any moment, but are too busy giving away their master plan to just pull the trigger. When the "scariest" moment of the book is worthy of an Austin Powers joke, we've got problems. It's contrived, and it feels that way. And that feeling kills suspense for me.

While reading that part, I was also thinking about a much better passage in Bakker's The Darkness that Comes Before where Khellus and Cnaiur are being chased on horseback. It's a very simple chase, dictated by the logistics of landscape and tiring horses, but it was incredibly suspenseful because you *knew* they were going to get caught, but hadn't yet. The sense of the inevitible was definitely there: the pursuers had more horses which they could switch out to rest their mounts; those being chased were also carrying a captured girl (the source of the chase), which overloaded one horse. But the reason it didn't happen immediately was simply because these things take time. There was a distance to overcome (unlike SWMNBN who could catch them at any moment). And every time Bakker's heroes looked back, they could see the line of tiny torchlights getting closer over the leagues.

That sense of something tiny (though still visible despite the distance)getting closer is just packed with suspense ... kind of like the suspense of a growing pinprick of light from an asteroid that you know is going to destroy the earth. But now imagine if we're reading a story about that asteroid and the author has it stop about a mile over the planet and just hover there because it wants to "savor your fear." That's no longer suspenseful. It's ridiculous.

That's SWMNBN.

[Hiro]

Rhythmically speaking, you know which film reminded me of AATE?
'Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, part 1'

Bursts of action with long sections of sitting around and wondering what to do.

(And one wickedly beautiful puppet sequence, worth the price of admission.)

[Atrium]

You mean the other Chronicles weren't deep, internal soul searching types of works?

They were absolutely, and thats a big reason why they were so great. But too much of a good thing... I felt that the first and second chronicles made a good job of balancing the inner workings of Covenant and Lindens minds, the psychodrama, with the story told. Everything made sense and there was a flow to the story, even when they were being agonizingly stupid. From my subjective perspective it seems like Donaldson back then was more interested in the Land as a fantasy environment. Sure, a fantasy environment used as a stage for his characters psychodrama, but also an amazing place in itself. The last chonicles give me the feeling that the author almost lost interest in the fantasy/horror setting that he so effectively brought to life in his earlier writing. Now the focus is almost wholly internal, and the sequences meant to balance that out just feel unsatisfying. Sometimes i get the feeling that Donaldson decided to destroy his creation definitely with the last series, and is shifting focus to make the bitter end more easy to swallow for us fans of the Land.

The point is not whether things work on or for a thematic level, - it must *mean* something -, but whether the story engages the reader.

Well said!

I don't think the problem is Linden. I think it is Jeremiah.

Yes, because so much of the story revolves around rescuing a boy that we never get to know. If Jeremiah needed to be included, why not let him arrive in the land sentient, at Lindens side, then go bad and make the wrong choices right in the spotlight, so we get a chance to emphatize and understand him, and also an emotional investement like Lindens in the fight for his redemption? If lost sons is one of the themes, it could certainly be very interesting. So far neither Roger nor Jeremiah has made a very big impact on me, for different reasons. And Joan?

I realize that im whining a bit, and i sure dont want to bring down anyone elses reading experience. But AATE was a big dissapointment to me. I was hoping that it would be the big redeemer, putting the last chrons back on track again. Now well have to wait 3 more years, and i for one wont be nearly as anxious this time around.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I couldn't disagree more. I have a fair number of technical criticisms, but:
The conflicts, depth, richness, texture, complexity, imperatives...the sheer scale and mass...are all superior.

Of course everyone's free to like or dislike, but [without really trying to dis anyone too seriously] as far as I can tell, most of the Linden haters are missing the point completely. Call it her 'psychodrama' if you like, but as I see it Linden pretty much IS the Land, in exactly the same way that TC is the White Gold. Her troubles/conflicts/suffering [which many are so willing to chatter about] AND her tremendous strength/determination/potency [which are so often conveniently ignored] are precisely the ravaging and triumphs of the Land.
It's like poo-pooing the Parthenon because it's crumbly, or demeaning a torture survivor cuz she's not happy and pretty anymore.

I also find it ironic that so many don't like that there is so much asking/questioning/uncertainty/lack of confidence in light of the peoples in the books that DO claim answers/surety...and what happens to them because of it.

You're one of the few on this forum who "gets it," and then you even go beyond "getting it" to explain things that went over my own head.

Donaldson is primarily a conceptual writer.

I should have quoted a source:

From the GI -

Now, it just so happens that my resources include an intensive background in fundamentalist Christianity, a fair acquaintance with French existentialism, and an instinct for conceptual thought. (03/24/2004)

[Emphasis mine.]

[Zarathustra]

WOTWE, I think we all "get it." We're here, aren't we? We're all Donaldson fans. We obviously like fantasy with some soul-searching and deep conceptual themes. Hiro was absolutely right, worth quoting a second time:

The point is not whether things work on or for a thematic level, - it must *mean* something -, but whether the story engages the reader.

If Donaldson can't satisfy his diehard fans, the ones who are cheering him on, who will buy his books in hardback without question, I think the problem goes beyond our alleged inability to "get it."

Call it her 'psychodrama' if you like, but as I see it Linden pretty much IS the Land, in exactly the same way that TC is the White Gold.

I wouldn't say "exactly the same way." First of all, Donaldson explicitly told us (through Mhoram) that TC is the White Gold. And this is exemplified in the text by having the ring be so personally tied to TC, from it literally being his wedding band, to it symbolically being the last tie to humanity and love for this man who is alienated from his humanity. In the Land, it is the expression of his passions, which he has bottled up with the Law (of Leprosy) to protect himself from "seductive" feelings which can threaten his sanity and status as a "survival machine."

There is no such correlation with Linden and the Land. If anything, the Staff of Law is the counterpart here. It's rightfully hers, it's the tool through which she expresses her fundamental role as a healer. The Land is just the stage where all this internal stuff is acted out externally--for both TC and LA.

It's like poo-pooing the Parthenon because it's crumbly, or demeaning a torture survivor cuz she's not happy and pretty anymore.

That's not fair at all. The Land isn't old and crumbly. It's boring. It's not tortured (like in the 2nd Chrons), it's neutered. No one is expecting the Land to be perfect and beautiful as it was in Lord Foul's Bane (and pretty much in no other book since then). They're expecting it to be interesting. Just look at The Wounded Land: the Land was horrifically changed from what we knew, but it was vivid and interesting. And the characters actually moved through it, instead of constantly being transported from place to place as if it didn't matter. Now, instead of Sunbane, we have Kevin's Freakin Dirt. Even the name is as dull as mud. And the effect of KD itself has a twofold wonder-killing aspect: 1) it hampers the magic of the Land, making it less magical by definition, and 2) it's virtually invisible as a threat or plot device. Basically, it takes the Land and turns it into something as mundane as the real world, without ever being threatening or visceral like the Sunbane. It's like taking the Parthenon and turning it into a parking structure. Or taking a torture victim and turning her into Snooki (someone who induces torture in others through sheer mediocrity, rather than illustrates her own torture).

Even where the Land is still vibrant and beautiful, like Andelain, it isn't written with the same wonderment as it has been in the past. Or, take places that actually *are* in the past, like the areas we've seen in Runes and FR, places that could have illustrated the Land at its peak of wonder: they're either desolate winter wastelands (which we've already seen in PTP and WGW) or it's just a random cave where Waynhim have the Staff. The difference isn't the time period (for the Land) ... the difference is the real world time difference for Donaldson. He's a different writer now. He doesn't even write the past version of the Land the way he did in the past.

I'm not saying this is objectively bad (it's all subjective). I'm just saying that you can't blame it on the readers for having unrealistic or illogical expectations. It's not unreasonable for us to crave the same level of intensity, vibrancy, and wonder we've come to expect from this series. It's not unfair for us to raise an eyebrow at the fact that the Land is basically a set of bland parking spots for the characters to sit at while they chit-chat for 100s of pages at a time, only to be instantly transported somewhere else. If the first two Chrons were like that, then maybe it would be an unfair expectation to want it to be different. But Donaldson himself is the one who created these expectations. If he wanted to do something completely different, maybe he should have just started a new series.

[Borillar]

[Vraith]

Well, obviously I disagree with most of that. But we're primarily dealing with subjective here, as you said. There are thing being said that just leave me flummoxed. Sticking with just your post:
For instance, a specific thing: the Staff is, I think, more than you say, not just a tool, Linden made it with her self...and the Land gave to her, as well. It wasn't so much a medicine/healing from outside through technique/instruments, more like live organ transplant.
At this point, I see every word/thought/conflict within Linden as direct metaphoric parallel of things actually happened/happening in the world. Just one example: her dedication to all things Jeremiah is in almost every respect the same as the Elohim and the world.

In a more general way, I don't feel much boredom or disappointment or lack of wonder, I feel astonishment and satisfaction. [with some caveats].

Oh, and on what WOTWE said: It's flattering when someone offers a compliment like that, of course. It's possible I get some things others don't; it's also damn certain others have gotten things I haven't. On subjective matters, I try very hard not to make judgements, though it's important/interesting to me to engage in dialogue about those things, and I get het up sometimes. OTOH: I think it's absurd/requires substantial justification to claim [not you Z, someone else, different thread] AATE is "all about family and gender roles."

[Atrium]

Adding to Zarathustras excellent post: One part of this 2-dimensionality of the Land is its apparent lack of history. I mean, 3000 years (or 3500?) has passed since Linden saved it and restored earthpower and Law. And we are to believe that nothing really interesting happened in those 3000 years? Just Anele loosing his staff early on, and the Masters mastering. WTF? When did Kevins Dirt appear? The people of the Land must have had at least a couple of milennia to rebuild their civilisation, give birth to new heroes, find new lore or research the old Lords wards, before they were neutered by the invisible farts of SHE.

Whats with these people? Are they even worth saving? They seem to just sit around in their little villages and wait for the next appearance of the Heroes From Beyond, come to save the day. Didnt anyone even try to challenge the Masters in 3000 years? They must have been aware of earthpower at least for part of that time. I could swallow that pill in the second chronicles, even if it tasted bitterly. It sort of fitted with the utter disaster of the sunbane. It bent every Law and made even the Land itself a mockery, only logical then that it totally destroyed the spirit of the people too. But once again?

I see this lack of history as another sign that Donaldson lost interest in his fantasy worldbuilding. Everything picks up where we left, 3000 years ago. Which of course is very convenient if what you really want to explore is Linden Averys troubled pshycology, without much interference.

[aliantha]

OTOH: I think it's absurd/requires substantial justification to claim [not you Z, someone else, different thread] AATE is "all about family and gender roles."

That wasn't me, was it? I'm pretty sure SRD said some years back that one of the themes of the 1st Chrons was the individual; for the 2nd Chrons, relationships; and for the 3rd Chrons, family. That's one of the reasons he waited 20 years to tackle the 3rd Chrons -- when he was writing the 2nd Chrons, he wasn't a parent yet. But "gender issues" as a theme is kinda stretching it, imho.

Atrium, re world-building: This is novel 9 of 10. How much more world-building do you need? There was a big gap between the 1st and 2nd Chrons, too, and not a lot of discussion about when the Clave took over, iirc.

[Vraith]

Now that's just the kind of post that flummoxes me.
I understand not liking the book.
But a number of the factual statements made/questions asked are actually in the text.
And to say the purpose is to explore Linden's psychology is the same as saying "a rose by any other name" is about botany.

[SkurjMaster]

Having read some of the back-and-forth of this thread and remembering some things I have also posted, it may be logical for SRD to have changed his style for the Last Chronicles. After all, he is trying to prove/show/display something not in the previous Chrons. That said, it has not been a terribly satisfying ride. It has its moments, but the overall effect sometimes is that SRD had one thing in mind, but then got in over his head and has had trouble pulling it off. Kind of like a big term paper gone wrong.

Someone correct me if I am remembering incorrectly, but didn't SRD say somewhere (Gradual Interview?) that the style of writing for this series was something called 'stirring cycles'? Am I way off there?

I am willing to try to accept that maybe I have missed something important to Donaldson that he is trying to convey with the style and action/non-action choices that he has made in the story, but right now things just seem overworked.

In the first Chrons The Land itself was a character. In the second, it was still a character, but shattered, tortured, and somehow hopeless. In the third, it is almost a non-entity. But, maybe that is logical, given the lack of health sense. The non-character-ness of the Land may be a statement in itself: 'I'm already as good as dead because you can't feel me.'

And while I am here, I expected more out of Roger Covenant. His only purpose seems to be as a vessel of hate and revenge.

As before, I remain somewhat disappointed and bewildered, but committed.