first series a bad idea for some people to read?

[illender]

I know someone that i want to read the series but im having second thoughts on it due to a childhood experience that person had when she was a kid. do you all think the lena scene would be too much for people with similar traumas in their background?

i think she would really love the series but that one part scares me for her

[dlbpharmd]

I've recommended the series many times over the years, but I've always warned my friends about that scene.

I would still make the recommendation, but tell her about that scene first. Let her make her own decision.

[Orlion]

Dlb makes a good point... I'd also add that the act is in no way ever justified... this last is more to save your skin than anything. I'd also maybe introduce her to some of his other writings... if she is able to come to trust SRD, she may be better able to read the series. I'd suggest Reave the Just, By Any Other Name, The Killing Stroke...and Unworthy of the Angel (all short stories). Other than that, just leave it up to her.

[Fist and Faith]

I don't think a day goes by that most women who were raped don't already think about what happened to them. I don't think a reminder will push them over any edge. I don't think they need to be handled with kid gloves on this issue.

Being male, I could be way off, though.

[Vraith]

Dlb makes a good point... I'd also add that the act is in no way ever justified... this last is more to save your skin than anything. I'd also maybe introduce her to some of his other writings... if she is able to come to trust SRD, she may be better able to read the series. I'd suggest Reave the Just, By Any Other Name, The Killing Stroke...and Unworthy of the Angel (all short stories). Other than that, just leave it up to her.

Not a bad idea, O.
I usually, for people I'm not sure are "into" the heavy-weight, recommend the "Mordant's Need" duet, and tell them it's not as dark/intense, but gives a clue to him. [probably partly cuz I rarely meet peeps who read short stories unless they haven't a choice: they either read by the ton, or not at all].

[Linna Heartbooger]

illender- well-considered.

I'll just share that someone I know talked to a young woman just after she had been through such a traumatic incident. My friend just listened, and told her how sad and sorry she was that this happened. (in a very gentle and warm-hearted way, knowing this friend)

My friend didn't ask for anything *LIKE* a re-cap. And then she was reading a counselling-ish book afterwards, and read that reviewing the instance in that way often causes such a victim to relive the experience in some significant way.

Would you like me to try to find out my friend's source? No guarantees, but I'd try to remember to ask her. (and if you really want to know, and I don't get back to you in a week, PM me.)

[Fist and Faith]

And yes, I may have already been corrected. It could be that they think about it every day of their lives (I think Maya Angelou was the one who said that), but that doesn't mean they need reminders? And if a woman never reads TCTC because it might bring it back too hard, she'll manage to get through life without it.

Clearly, I'm not the one to ask about this situation.

[peter]

I don't think your friends experience is necessarily the issue here. In no way to diminish her trauma, but we all in the course of our lives will experience events that we will have to come to terms with - and this cannot be done by those who care for us shielding us from every cultural reference to situations that bear any relation to that thing in our past. More pertinant perhaps is 'Should we encourage any to read a given work on the grounds that 'I think you will like this' '. In my experience this rarely works. So many friends of mine who I believed would love TC hated the Chrons - or at least that small part which they managed to read before giving up - that I have given up reccomending them to anyone. Similarly - I can't remember a single book that anyone has ever reccomended me to read (and this is by people who know me well) that has not been a drudge to get through. On the basis of these experiences I have concluded that the reading experience is so intimate, so personal, that it is by and large beyond the point where any one person can have any accurate idea of what a second person may like, no matter how well they know them.

[Linna Heartbooger]

And yes, I may have already been corrected.

1. The first time around, you left yourself open to the possibility "I could be way off, though." Which is a GOOD sign IMO.

2. It's clearly something I don't -know- about, either; hence the THIRD-HAND citation of something the asker "might want to read." I don't even know what the specific CONTEXT of that statement my friend quoted was...

3. Plus, giving ones own first-person account is DIFFERENT from reading a story. It could be TOTALLY different for all I know.

I guess this also brings up the interesting question to ponder: "WHO knows what really IS BEST for someone in that situation?" A person who's gone through that has some experiential knowledge that no-one else can challenge. And yet, sometimes when someone doesn't want to face something ugly, a person outside of them can see "what they really need" better than they can. I wonder what really brings healing.

Clearly, I'm not the one to ask about this situation.

(Again, who is?) But because you speak in a humble and sensitive way, you're less likely than most to do damage... and all people do damage sometime or another.

[Fist and Faith]

Thanks, Lina. I haven't been accused of being humble or sensitive lately. Heh

[Lord Zombiac]

The point Fist and Faith made was very similar to an argument I made regarding the film "I spit on your grave."

There is a prolonged, brutal, thirty minute rape scene in the film, unlike anything ever filmed before.

The concern people had against this film was that it might inspire someone to commit a similar act.

My argument against this idea was that:

1. Nearly everyone watching this scene will be repulsed by this brutality. If you are not repulsed by it, there is probably something wrong with you in the first place, and you will probably commit such acts without any help or inspiration from this film.

2. Every film depicting rape prior to this film left something to the imagination. If you weren't a sick pervert in the first place, such films left an element open to the concept of rape as eroticism-- in short, "I spit on your grave," by depicting the sheer brutality of rape, left no misconceptions about rape that might otherwise influence someone to commit the act.

3. "I spit on your grave" was therefore the only responsible way to depict rape on film.

Fist and Faith, you need not make statements such as "being male, I may be way off though."

The point you are trying to make is correct, but you must keep in mind being male has nothing to do with it.

Males can be raped too. Often this can be more traumatic because no one expects a man to be raped. This compounds the offense.

I have never been raped or molested.
I will admit something shocking and disturbing about when I read "Lord Foul's Bane."
Being 14 years old and pumped up with all kinds of horny teenage hormones I was actually turned on by a leper raping a 15 year old girl.

The point I am making with this statement was that had I watched "I spit on your grave" before reading this book, I would probably not have fantasized in a sexual way about rape-- which is primarily an act of violence.

[Fist and Faith]

Well, I appreciate the slack. Heh. But I still don't know if a male can really understand. I don't know how many males will agree with this. But I saw a talkshow once. Not sure which, but it was long ago, before Jerry Springer and Maury were the way talk shows were. It was a serious show. Phil? Oprah? Sally? Anyway, it was about a teenage boy who had been raped. He was talking about it, and either someone asked him if he could show us what had happened, or he volunteered. The point is, he got down on the floor, and got into the position he was in when being raped.

A woman called in, and said something like, "I have never seen anything so horrible!! I can't believe you would ask a rape victim to act out the rape!!" It was strange, because I hadn't thought of it that way. But she's right. If we're talking about a woman. Not in a million years would you ask a woman to do that, and not in a million years would I expect her to do it. But a guy? It hadn't crossed my mind that having him re-enact it was a problem. I think the overwhelming emotion for a male rape victim, until he got revenge, would be revenge. And I think he would get revenge, at nearly any cost. It would surely be the focus of my life. Not fear; not vulnerability; not weakness. It would be a rage that was, at times, calm and cool. Because it wouldn't just be fantasizing about getting revenge. It would be planning revenge, knowing that it was going to happen.

Do female victims feel the same way? Not from anything I've heard in the news or anything. That's why I'm thinking being male means I can't say whether or not, even though they think about it every day of their lives, it would be too difficult to stumble across such a scene in a book.

[Lord Zombiac]

Well I must disagree. I've known male victims of molestation. Rage is not what they experience. The degree of self loathing they have in incalculable. They never recover-- not that this is any different for women.

When I say women are expected to be raped it is because women are taught from an early age that this horrible crime might happen them. Men are seldom taught this, and are just horribly ashamed and devastated that this could happen to them.

It is also because it is culturally an expectation-- in wartime, you hear much about raping and pillaging. Does the idea that this might happen to the conquered men ever come to mind? Hardly. The rape of Nanking by Japanese soldiers is a well known atrocity. The sculpture "the rape of the women of the Sabine," depicts women being raped, not boys.

Not saying a man being raped is worse, just that there is a degree of understanding for the victim that is not present when this is done to a man.

With the exception of pederasty and prison rape, it is simply more of a stigma when a man is raped.

[Lord Zombiac]

it would be too difficult to stumble across such a scene in a book.

See, you're actually making my point for me!

[Fist and Faith]

I'm not talking about being the victim of molestation. I'm talking about what Lena went through, and what the guy on that talk show went through.

[Vraith]

Somewhat in agreement with LZ here [part of it, anyway]: we've barely begun dealing with the ways and means that rape harms either men or women.

Tell you you're right, Fist, in part, about the vengeance though...but because LZ is right about the reaction, what you end up with is victims enacting their vengeance by becoming rapists themselves. They TAKE an eye for an eye...but they take it from someone else.

It's the movie-avenger hero thing. [that has so many variations] In almost every flick, the good guy gets pummeled by the bad guy, and then does what you say...gets the bastard. And we cheer. And we're supposed to think real men/seekers for justice do that.
What really happens in real life is the bully beats the crap out of you, so you beat the crap out of someone else.

A last thing: you might not think you'd feel weakness...but incidents like this don't care about what you think you'd feel...the act MAKES you weak, right then and there...if you weren't weak wouldn't you be able to stop it? That's the cycle you would have to deal with...however you wanted to frame it.

[Fist and Faith]

Yeah, I'm not saying it's as cut & dried as I put it. I'm just saying that men and women react in different ways, and probably to this, too. It was a woman who called the show to make that particular complaint, and what she objected to hadn't crossed my mind. So either it's a difference between male and female, or it's just me.

[ninjaboy]

I had a girlfriend for a few years who had been raped when she was around 14..
And I encouraged her to read the series as a 20 yr old, and she did, and really enjoyed them.. Not so much as to join the Watch or anything. I did give her a warning about that scene, as I felt it necessary.
It later struck me that she had done the same as Lena, and perhaps her experiences really helped her identify with that character.
But as a general rule, I have been encouraging people to read 'the Illearth War' first, and if they enjoy that then get into the rest of it. This strikes me as a good way to go about it for people who have experienced rape, as they will become aware of it without having to read that particular chapter describing it, and also they will understand Covenant's remorse and the lengths he has gone to to to earn forgiveness. And if they feel up to it, knowing that, they can start from the beginning with a good understanding.

[jonnyredleader]

It really depends on the reader. I would mention that it happens and see whether that was a straight no no. Failing that start off with the illearth war, I did and I read LFB last, didnt affect my enjoyment of the series. The what has gone before takes care of the sensitive area with a generalisation

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

I'd rather recommend to both warn and start from TIW anyway, like ninjaboy suggested.

A warning can both let choose and help be prepared, but starting with TIW usually helps anyone, for LFB is particularly hard to get into anyway, and in this case reading about all the consequences and remorse may not only ease this situation in the Chrons, but maybe even help get through the real-life one. Though, as already stated by peter, Linna and jonnyredleader, that definitely depends on the person.