Importance of the Elohim (Spoilers here! Read at own risk)

[SkurjMaster]

Have we missed something collectively here (or just me)? I didn't do a proper search on this one, so please forgive me if I have re-opened an old topic. However, we now have record of two 'species' that have assailed the Elohim.

At some point or points in history, members of the Insequent have attempted or have been attempting to harm or subdue the Elohim. Some point in the very distant past (I think) the quellvisk were defeated by the Elohim. What are these things and why did they need defeating? Did SRD just need them as a device to allow Jeremiah to build his construct? Collectively, this lets us know that the Elohim are not universally liked or respected, to put it mildly. Some here believe that Jeremiah has guarded or warded the Elohim. So who is mistaken here?

[Vraith]

hmmm...I don't see the Elohim/Insequent quite that way [as a sort of all-out war between the species]. There are conflicts, of course, but I don't think either wanted to wipe the other out of existence. It's more a matter of Insequent insisting on relevance and respect, and Elohim looking down haughtily, than annihilation.

The quellvisk are something else. Through LF's influence/corruption of another powerful race, these critters were warped/sent specifically to slaughter the Elohim. And succeeded at least insofar as threatening their home. [whether LF wanted those people SO THAT they'd create those critters SO THAT they would slaughter the Elohim is debatable...LF may have had other, and/or additional purposes for them that failed...there are hints that is so]

The Jeremiah thing is another different issue: Yes, it seems Jerry has the potential to lock up the elohim and throw away the key, thus they are afraid...and have a perfect right to be nervous. But the elohim ONLY see the prison. I, and some others in various ways/to various degrees, think the ability to lock them up is also, at least potentially, the ability to preserve them from utter destruction, and then open the door and let them out.

[dlbpharmd]

The quellvisk are something else. Through LF's influence/corruption of another powerful race, these critters were warped/sent specifically to slaughter the Elohim. And succeeded at least insofar as threatening their home. [whether LF wanted those people SO THAT they'd create those critters SO THAT they would slaughter the Elohim is debatable...LF may have had other, and/or additional purposes for them that failed...there are hints that is so]

LF set up this battle because he hoped it would escalate to the point where the AoT was threatened.

[Vraith]

The quellvisk are something else. Through LF's influence/corruption of another powerful race, these critters were warped/sent specifically to slaughter the Elohim. And succeeded at least insofar as threatening their home. [whether LF wanted those people SO THAT they'd create those critters SO THAT they would slaughter the Elohim is debatable...LF may have had other, and/or additional purposes for them that failed...there are hints that is so]

LF set up this battle because he hoped it would escalate to the point where the AoT was threatened.

Yes. My uncertainty is due to questions on the length of LF's sight. Was he sure AoT would be in danger then? Or was he playing a longer game...Even if it failed, it would be a frustration but not a loss, cuz it opened other options further down the road? Did he curse that it failed, then ponder an eon, or were plan's B,C, and D already in place just in case? Or did he KNOW it would fail, but was a necessary step?
We know TC as Arch thinks it just didn't work out.

[Cambo]

From the parts of Foul's back story we got in AATE, it seems he's a lot more fallible than perhaps we thought at first. I mean, we saw him defeated by Covenant twice, but both of those were pretty desperate, bite your nails victories. Before that, we only knew about him and Kevin, and Kelenbhrabanal, both of which were pretty significant victories for Foul.

But in AATE, we get a couple of millenia recounted where it seems he goes from frustration to frustration. It seems with the quellvisk that he may have overestimated their strength, sent them off aginst the Elohim, and watched them promptly get their butts kicked.

[Hiro]

Hmm. It's hard to judge both the Elohim and Foul in these matters. I guess they look at events on an epic timescale, and weigh things accordingly. Human beings can hardly do that, as if we are blinded by our mortality. So speculation ensues...

Quellvisk could also have been:

- a distraction,
- a way to measure the intent and strength of the Elohim, i.e. lab animals,
- something to tease the Elohim with,
- etc.

[SkurjMaster]

I guess I need to read again. Where is it indicated that LF had anything to do with the quellvisk? Don't have the book with me.

[The Somberlain]

I think it says that he corrupted them and sent them to attack the Elohim, who assumed they would just end up killing each other and ignored it. Then when they turned out to pose an actual threat they went and murdered all the Quellvisk and chucked their bones in a pile.

[SkurjMaster]

Which begs the question of why the far-sighted Elohim would not have destroyed the bones to prevent them from being used in the fashion that they were. Or, maybe the Elohim could not guess to what use 'beings from outside of time', such as Jeremiah, would put them, and so never thought about destroying them. Leaving them as a warning for others would only work if the others were aware of the quellvisks' battle with the Elohim and why the battle occurred. Hmmmmmm......

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I guess I need to read again. Where is it indicated that LF had anything to do with the quellvisk? Don't have the book with me.

The quellvisk were a species of sentient herbivores that Foul corrupted into hideous monsters to send against the elohim after first testing them against the Demimages of Vidik Amar. Somehow, defeating the elohim would supposedly awaken the Worm.

[Vraith]

I guess I need to read again. Where is it indicated that LF had anything to do with the quellvisk? Don't have the book with me.

The quellvisk were a species of sentient herbivores that Foul corrupted into hideous monsters to send against the elohim after first testing them against the Demimages of Vidik Amar. Somehow, defeating the elohim would supposedly awaken the Worm.

hmmm..maybe I need to re-read, but I thought LF corrupted the vidik so THEY created the 'visk and sent them to attack. [and one of TC's gap-memories was of one of the vidik in a meeting who'd been horrified by what had been done]

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I guess I need to read again. Where is it indicated that LF had anything to do with the quellvisk? Don't have the book with me.

The quellvisk were a species of sentient herbivores that Foul corrupted into hideous monsters to send against the elohim after first testing them against the Demimages of Vidik Amar. Somehow, defeating the elohim would supposedly awaken the Worm.

hmmm..maybe I need to re-read, but I thought LF corrupted the vidik so THEY created the 'visk and sent them to attack. [and one of TC's gap-memories was of one of the vidik in a meeting who'd been horrified by what had been done]

Jerrick of Vidik Amar had a hand in his own destruction. That is after all Foul's methodology. Jerrick shared his magical ability with Foul, but as far as I know, he didn't create any monsters first-hand.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The quellvisk are something else. Through LF's influence/corruption of another powerful race, these critters were warped/sent specifically to slaughter the Elohim. And succeeded at least insofar as threatening their home. [whether LF wanted those people SO THAT they'd create those critters SO THAT they would slaughter the Elohim is debatable...LF may have had other, and/or additional purposes for them that failed...there are hints that is so]

LF set up this battle because he hoped it would escalate to the point where the AoT was threatened.

Yes. My uncertainty is due to questions on the length of LF's sight. Was he sure AoT would be in danger then? Or was he playing a longer game...Even if it failed, it would be a frustration but not a loss, cuz it opened other options further down the road?

Foul has not been characterized as having deeper or far-reaching plans in past ages. His technique back then was far more direct and near-sighted. But his losses have taught him a lesson regarding the seeking of quick and easy victories. Foul evolved. Only at the end of WGW are we allowed a glimpse of the less cunning Foul of old.

Here is why the AoT was in danger even during the time of Vidik Amar. The stated purpose of the elohim is to keep the Worm quiescent. Spending their lives in peaceful self-contemplation has the desired quieting effect. Absent the elohim, the Worm wakes up sooner, and probably sooner yet due to the effects of the battle against the quellvisk on the Worm's slumbering.

[Horrim Carabal]

Remember, the Earth is NOT Lord Foul's creation. He was watching "over the shoulder" of the Creator, and corrupting the Earth by burying the banes in it, etc. but it's not his creation. He doesn't know everything about it.

Those "milennia of frustration" as Foul traveled the Earth searching for a way out can be seen as his learning period.

Maybe he had no idea whether or not attacking/destroying the Elohim would lead to the Arch collapsing. So he decided to try it.

As for the quellvisks, they were created by Foul after the demimage Jerrick shared his magical knowledge with the Despiser. Probably thought he was a friend, same as the Council would later consider a-Jeroth a friend and one of them.

Whatever magical skills Jerrick showed Foul, they were new to him. He of course warped and twisted them into evil, as is his nature. Later he would warp and twist the Earthpower into the Sunbane in a similar way.

The Elohim didn't even notice the quellvisks until the monsters were at their doorstep. Then they annihilated them, nothing implies it was a close battle. Foul either shrugged and moved on, or plotted the future use of the bones to trap the Elohim, depending on what degree of future-sight you ascribe to Foul.

That would make a great GI question, in fact. Did Lord Foul actually think his quellvisks could defeat the Elohim? Or did he plan for their loss and the future use of their bones to trap them? Or, did he just send them against the Elohim for fun, just to see what would happen?

p.s. For some reason my mind's eye sees the quellvisks as looking like the aliens from the movie Skyline. Weird?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Remember, the Earth is NOT Lord Foul's creation. He was watching "over the shoulder" of the Creator, and corrupting the Earth by burying the banes in it, etc. but it's not his creation. He doesn't know everything about it.

Those "milennia of frustration" as Foul traveled the Earth searching for a way out can be seen as his learning period.

Maybe he had no idea whether or not attacking/destroying the Elohim would lead to the Arch collapsing. So he decided to try it.

As for the quellvisks, they were created by Foul after the demimage Jerrick shared his magical knowledge with the Despiser. Probably thought he was a friend, same as the Council would later consider a-Jeroth a friend and one of them.

Whatever magical skills Jerrick showed Foul, they were new to him. He of course warped and twisted them into evil, as is his nature. Later he would warp and twist the Earthpower into the Sunbane in a similar way.

The Elohim didn't even notice the quellvisks until the monsters were at their doorstep. Then they annihilated them, nothing implies it was a close battle. Foul either shrugged and moved on, or plotted the future use of the bones to trap the Elohim, depending on what degree of future-sight you ascribe to Foul.

That would make a great GI question, in fact. Did Lord Foul actually think his quellvisks could defeat the Elohim? Or did he plan for their loss and the future use of their bones to trap them? Or, did he just send them against the Elohim for fun, just to see what would happen?

p.s. For some reason my mind's eye sees the quellvisks as looking like the aliens from the movie Skyline. Weird?

My recollection has it that the Elohim placed the bones there. No reason was given as to why that particular location out of all the Earth.

[earthbrah]

pg. 488, Infelice says of the quellvisks: It does not concern you that they once made war upon the Elohim. In a distant age, they were destoryed. Their bones we deposited here, in Muirwin Delenoth, which signifies the resting place of abhorrence, as an emblem of our disdain of such affronts.

So the Elohim put the bones there; why there, she doesn't exactly say. But on pg. 520 TC recalls that the bones were put there As if the Land were a midden for everything that the Elohim despised.

Vraith wrote:

The Jeremiah thing is another different issue: Yes, it seems Jerry has the potential to lock up the elohim and throw away the key, thus they are afraid...and have a perfect right to be nervous. But the elohim ONLY see the prison. I, and some others in various ways/to various degrees, think the ability to lock them up is also, at least potentially, the ability to preserve them from utter destruction, and then open the door and let them out.

It seems pretty clear that the Elohim were not lured into Jerry's bone construct--they're still hiding or running from the Worm. It's also clear that they only see the possibility of the prison that Jerry could build for them, and are rightly afraid...or at least, that's what they're focused on with him. But he could build a safe room, like has been suggested. OR, the Elohim as a race could be used to make a forbidding.

Each Appointed Elohim was bound in some way: the Colossus, the Durance, the Guardian, the Staff. Said differently, each had a limitation imposed on it for the purpose of forbidding something: easement to the One Forest, release of the skurj, access to the One Tree, corruption of Earthpower.
On pg. 501 TC muses that The Elohim were ineffectual precisely because they had so few constraints. Perhaps if the can assume the role of the Appointed on a collective scale, the necessary forbidding of evils can be built by Jerry...and perhaps their constrained boundlessness can recall the vastness that has been forgotten...

[Horrim Carabal]

My recollection has it that the Elohim placed the bones there. No reason was given as to why that particular location out of all the Earth.

I just assumed they dumped the quellvisk bones as close to Foul's Creche as they cared to get. Kind of as a message to Foul - don't mess with us again.

Who knows? Maybe there is more to it than that. But to my mind that's a good guess.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

My recollection has it that the Elohim placed the bones there. No reason was given as to why that particular location out of all the Earth.

I just assumed they dumped the quellvisk bones as close to Foul's Creche as they cared to get. Kind of as a message to Foul - don't mess with us again.

Who knows? Maybe there is more to it than that. But to my mind that's a good guess.

I don't know that the Creche even existed at that time. But Earthbrah is onto something here. I have the general outlines of a jigsaw puzzle regarding the end of this, and he's just given me the location of one of the pieces.

My thinking on this has come a long way since the time I thought the Land and everything was going to be devoured and that's it. There's going to be major destruction, that's necessary, but I sincerely believe there's going to be a new Earth in the making, like a Phoenix rising from the ashes of the old. That's why I argued on another thread that the last novel will concern the classic element Fire: skurj and Kastenessan.

This new Earth is not going to contain the magical elements of the old Earth. The non-magical albeit potent (strong-loined) Haruchai will play a major role in peopling the new Earth. But I've been wondering about the rest. If the Elohim are used as a forbidding against the Worm, as Earthbrah suggests, then that kills two birds with one stone right there in the formation of a world without magic. Then there is the problem of Foul, and SHE, etc.

(Earthbrah's solution is also satisfying to our Earthly mythology - they will literally "put the genie in a bottle," although this will serve some purpose whereas with Arabic stories I don't think it served any purpose.)

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I see my new post has disappeared and so I have to start all over again. In fact, all attempts to post here are vanishing into a Jeremiah construct, never to return.

Here (again) is the story of how the genie came to be in the bottle:

"I am one of those rebellious spirits that opposed Solomon, the great prophet, and submitted not to him. The great monarch sent Asaph, his chief minister, to apprehend me. That was accordingly done. Asaph seized my person and brought me by force before his master's throne.

"Solomon, the son of David, commanded me to quit my way of living, to acknowledge his power, and to submit myself to his command. I bravely refused to obey, and told him I would rather expose myself to his resentment than swear fealty and submit to him as he required. To punish me, he shut me up in this copper vessel, and gave it to one of the genii who submitted to him, with orders to throw me into the sea, which order was executed, to my sorrow."

I don't think the plot of this story has anything to do with the Chrons, just the basic idea of putting the genie (the Elohim) in a bottle (a Jeremiah construct).

[Aleksandr]

Absent the elohim, the Worm wakes up sooner, and probably sooner yet due to the effects of the battle against the quellvisk on the Worm's slumbering.

But this rather begs the question: the Elohim did fight the Qvellvisks, and destroy them, and the Worm did not wake up.