The Dictionary of the Khazars

[aliantha]

Well:

Spoiler

The maid at the hotel in one of the appendices is named Virginia Ateh -- that's kind of a dead giveaway, huh? But you're saying she also reincarnated earlier? Hunh.

And the little boy who runs up to Dorothea at the hotel must be the reincarnation of what's-her-face who seduced Samuel Cohen, because he has extra thumbs and wears gloves and keeps asking her, "Do you recognize me?" Which makes Dorothea the reincarnation of Cohen. The little boy's parents are, I think, reincarnations of the other religions' devils/demons. And it's pretty clear to me that they're working together, and have been throughout history, to keep a lid on the Khazar Dictionary.

How'd I do?

Spoiler

I liked how the Khazar managed to convince every religion represented in the polemic that he had converted to their religion. Or maybe that was just the story they each told later, to cover the fact that their guy had failed.

[peter]

Ok,Ok.
Well, here goes - I'll make it as easy to understand as I can and you can feel as free to agree, disagree or laugh outloud as you like - there are no right or wrong answers here.

The Dictionary of the Khazars is essentially a tale of the Creation from a Gnostic point of view where there is a God creator that has created the heaven/spirit world and a Devil creator that has created the matereal world which serves as a prison (if you like) for mankind. Man will only escape the corporeal world of suffering and be reunited with God in his spiritual world of Heaven when a complete knowledge of Him in all his aspects is achieved by mankiind. To this end (knowingly or otherwise) mankind searches for knowledge of the Divine in the earthly realm by compiling knowledge of the three descriptions/interpretations of Adam - one for each of the monotheistic faiths - and collecting that information into the Dictionaries. Thus we have Adam, Brother of God being represented by the Christian Dictionary, Adam Ruhani, the Muslim, and Adam Cadomen, the jewish
(................to be continued)

[peter]

......from above)

Working against this 'coming together' of the various aspects of God/Adam are the Satans of the three monotheistic faiths who at various points in history, when there is any chance of the above happening work either individualy or in combination to confound it's being achieved (thus we have Nicon Sevast burning Branchovitch's copy of the Christian Dictionary etc).
So this is a tale of two groups who down through history work in opposite directions in respect of the Great Work of compiling a complete knowledge of God - and thus effecting mans release from the purgatory of the matereal world and his reunion with God in his rightful place of the spiritual/heaneanly realm. Now (from what I can gather) the knowledge of what is being worked for/against seems to lie with the Satans; mankinds representatives in the struggle seem to be driven (if that is the word) to compile their respective works and bring them together without any insight in the main as to what will be achieved when the three parts of the Dictionary are brought together.
In the various entries of the book we are told the story of (the) three occasions where the threat of success is thwarted by the Satans, one at the time of the polemic itself, one in the 16th C. and the last occuring in a hotel in modern day Istanbul. On the last occasion sucess was so nearly achieved that one of those who worked for unification of the knowledge is actualy given a glimpse of the 'prize' of mankinds release. The details of future sucess/activities may be implied in the books 'ending' - I think indeed they are, but I am not smart enough to work them out (I have so many unanswered questions Aliantha, you won't believe....)
Anyway, the various charachters whose entries we are given are the protagonists who engage in this struggle down through the centuries, and our job is to work out who from the past is who in the future, what the story of their varuious encounters is and ultimately, when all this is known, what the significance of the differing paragraphs of the male and female versions of the Dictionary is.
The story is multi-layered and complex - and very much open to interpretation. I believe in the main part I can answer these questions - but a host of details remain that as yet I can make no headway with.
The following site called 'Steph's Dictionary of the Khazars' gave me some real insights into the connections and relationships in the book, but be warned - in some vital places it is wrong! (Steph admits such could be the case herself).

http//www.blueblanket.net/Steph/Record/khazars.html

Good luck Ali! - As the man said in the intro the book will yeild it's secrets but damn, you have to work to get them!

(p.s. If you decide to give it a crack I'll happily add my insights (right or wrong) to those of Stephs).

[aliantha]

Thanks, peter! I agree with you on all of the above, altho I hadn't worked out that it's the "devils" who have the information mankind needs to break out of corporeal existence (altho, given the story of Adam and Eve, it makes sense that it's the devil who has the info that God doesn't want us to have). I thought of them more as guardians of that truth, keeping it away from us for their own nefarious purposes.

And yeah, I'd worked out that there were three times in history when this info had come to the fore. Otherwise, what's the point of Brankovich's story?

I'll take a look at that website later today.

[peter]

Quick point here Ali, I may not have expressed myself clearly above in that it may indeed be that the three Satans have all of the knowledge of the three aspects of God, but their principle aim is to prevent Mankind from amasing that knowledge in combined form (whether this implies the unification of the three monotheistic faiths or not I am not sute) and thus effecting their release from the corporeal world of suffering.

I mustn't batter you with questions re your take on every aspect of the book because you no doubt have better and more important things to do than a minute dissection of 'The Dictionary', but I am interested in hearing if any of 'Stephs' links/connections strike a bell with you, or indeed help the story of the book to 'gel' in any way for you.

[aliantha]

Thanks for the reminder, peter. I forgot to check out the site last night, but I'm looking at it now.

So Suk was the character who was given the egg in exchange for the violin? I thought that was somebody else, but was too lazy to go back through the book and figure it out. She's got Suk as the reincarnation of Brankovich, but I don't think it was Brankovich who orginally got the egg.

I also don't agree that Princess Ateh is reincarnated as Lukarevich. Ateh isn't a devil -- she's the God(dess), the being who knows the whole truth. As is Virginia Ateh in the modern-day episode -- Virginia saw exactly what happened while Dorothea was out of the room, but nobody believed her testimony.

I do like how the author made all of the devils artists in Brankovich's time. That hadn't occurred to me before.

[peter]

Gosh Ali - this is going to get complicated. It may take me a few posts to make my ideas clear so just let me 'ramble' till I seem to be running out of steam!

Ok. What can we know for sure.
i) Akshany (17th C.) returns as Mr Van de Spaak (20th C.). Evidence - both play white t.shell lute, eat with two pronged fork and Akshanys entry in the green book tells us so.
ii)Mokadasser al Saffer (9th C.) returns as Dr Suk (20th C.). Evisence - Mokadasser is Ateh's lover, she sends him the key to her bed chamber that results in his imprisonment. In the 20th C. Dr Suk fails to hear the words spoken by the girl Gethsiomina but Ateh in the 8/9th C. does hear them. Prompted by this she places the key in her mouth that is gone in the morning having transported itself to Dr Suks mouth in the 20th C. (he wakes with it in his mouth and puts it into his trouser pocket). This key is found to fit the room of the waitress Virginia Ateh, confirming not only that Suk and Mokadessar are one but so are Ateh (8th C.) and Ateh (20th C.) Thus we have:-
iii) Princess Ateh (8th C.) is reincarnated as Virginia Ateh (20th C.).

(N.b. Remember Ali ii & iii above, being reincarnations from the time of the polemic to the 20th C. do not - as we shall see - preclude there being a further reincarnation to insert between each in the 17th C.)

Lets now just concentrate on the Satans for a bit. What can we know.
iv) Sevast 17c. reincarnates as Mrs Van der Spaak - neither has a nose partition, both paint icons with their left hand. Now Sevast in one of his final talks with his employer Branchovitch, having been exposed as a Satan, says to Brancovitch that they will meet for breakfast in Constantinople in 293 years for judgement to be passed. The year is 1689 and 293 years later Suk is found dead in his room with a scrap of paper in the room that says 1689 + 293 = 1982. The date is 2nd Oct 1982. This must give an implication that:-
v) Branchovitch reincarnates as Dr Suk (This incidentaly keeps the religions in line as both are christian) So this will give us Mokadasser 8c.----> Brancovitch 17c.------> Dr Suc 20c. which does agree with Steph that Branchovich and Suk are one and the same but does not agree with her sugestion that Mokadesser reincarnates as Cohen in the 17c. then Schultz in the 20th.

Now we have two of the Satans from the 17c. reincarnated into the Van der Spaak family from Belgium so it seema consistant to examine the third member - the boy Manuil - as a possible candidate for the third Satan, that of the Jewish faith. Well he has the same two thumbs as Lukarevich and like her has a passion for red blue and yellow. Dr Muawia and the boy talk and his talk is "not that of a boy". The Khazars drew Icons with two thumbs and these were indicative of the male and the female present in the individuals who posess them. Now Lukarevitch at her meeting with her lover Cohen in 17th c. Dubrovnick tells him that when they meet again she will be male, but will have the same two thumbs as now. When Manuil the boy meets Dr Schultz in Constantinople/istanbul he asks her "Do yo recognise me" repeatedly.

...................to be continued.

[aliantha]

I am following you so far. I see now where the Brankovich-Suk connection comes from, thanks. And yes, the 20th-century boy is the 3rd devil.

So I now have two questions about your reincarnation scheme: Who do you see as the 7th century person for Brankovich-Suk? And who (if anyone) is Ateh in the 17th century?

[peter]

Glad it seems to be making some kind of sense Ali (but I'm afraid some of my more questtionable ideas are yet to come, but all in good time ). Trying to pull the Dictionary together like this is like trying to catch eel's in a barrel - the connections slip in and out of focus and sometimes you have to just step back and let it all fall into place in your head for a while. Today might be one of those days - I watched the new Royal Opera commissioned ballet 'Alice in Wonderland' last night on my big new TV (awesome on both counts ) and drunk way too much wine in the process! Hence my concentration levels are not quite up to speed today. If I rally later I will try to finish my above post then, but it may be tomorrow before I am back to form

re your questions Ali, if you don't mind I will leave the Ateh part for later when I can explore the possibilities in a little more depth - but re Branchovitch/Suk, the 7c person is without doubt Mokadasser - see ii) above for the rationaal behind this. The Ateh/Mokadasser relationship (ie they were lovers) is, how can I say, a sealing if you like of the connection that they have in that she (Ateh) was the legendary compiler of the female half of the Dictionary, and he, the male.

[aliantha]

Fun weekend, huh?

I'll take your word re Mokadasser. I didn't pay much attention to his entry, to be honest -- I guess I should go back and re-read it...

[peter]

Ok Ali - a few hours, some caffine,some food and a bath seem to have done the trick so here goes (wish me luck! )

So, we are happy that Manuil is the reincarnation of Ephrosinia Lukarevich and we therefor have the descent lines of the three Satans from the 17C. in place into the Van der Spaak family.
I want to leave Ateh aside briefly to look at the dream walkers descent lines from the 17C. to the 20C. Branchovich we know goes to Suk (Christian), Cohen to Schultz (Jewish), so that just leaves Masudi (17C.) and Muawia (20C.). The evidence of reincarnation of Masudi in Muawia is sketchy to say the least. Steph you will notice finds no common atributes to note and neither can I. Both are however Islamic and both other dream walkers from the 17C (ie Brancovich and Cohen) have gone on to be reincarnated as experts in the 20C. conference in Istanbul keeping to their same religions, therefore by the same token I think it is reasonable to assume that the same is the case for Masudi and Muawia.

Now we come to the thorny problem of Ateh (who I sense you have a somewhat heightened respect for - and quite rightly - so I must tread carefully here).
We know that Ateh took Mokadessa as a lover, we know she had no thumbs. and we know that the demon Ibn Haderash 'divested her of her sex' - hence no thumbs since the thumbs are the indicators of sex. Now comes the tricky bit - there is strong (though not absolutely conclusive) evidence that Steph is correct in her assumption that Ateh is one and the same as Ephrosinia Lukarevich. We are told by Daubmanus that she was still alive in the 17C. (in fact we are told in her entry that she could not die) and was visited by Masudi who did not recognise her as Ateh. She herself tells Masudi that she is sexless having been divested of her sex and that her only lover is Samuel Cohen. Now we know Cohen Is Lukarevich's lover so either he is lover of both women or (more likely I feel) both women are one and the same. Now things start to get interesting. We know Ateh(7thC.) is one and the same as Virginia Ateh, the waitress in the Kingston Hotel Istanbul; we know that Lukarevich is reincarnated as Manuil. Now if Ateh is indeed Lukarevich in the 17C. then this means that both Manuil and Virginia Ateh are Princess Ateh from the 7thC. and it is here that I believe the significance of the divesting of Ateh's sex lies. This results I believe in a splitting of Ateh into two thumbed Manuil and Virginia Ateh of whose thumbs we are given no information. Thus the action of Ibn Haderash is to create both God(ess) (female or neither) and devil (male or both) from Princess Ateh. Thus in the final denoument in Istanbul Cohen (Schultz) is reunited with Lukarevitch (Manuil) and Princess Ateh (Virginia Ateh) is reunited with Mokaddasa (Suk) - albeit only temporarily. There is a sort of logic to this hypothesis in that it mirrors the splitting of the dictionary into its male and female parts and it is only when both these parts are reunited (as with the 3 versions of the dictionary), that mankinds release will be achieved.
If we take the other course that Musadi's 17C. Ateh is not Lukarevich, then we have significant problems in explaining the Cohen connection and making any sense of the sex divestment/thumbs connection. I am certain that my above hypothesis is flawed in a number of places but I am equally confident that something of this nature is occuring rather than just straight descent lines.

..................Contd.

[aliantha]

Apologies to others who might be reading this thread, which is chock-full of spoilers.

I have to tell you the Lukarevich, as a character, put me off. She seemed so grotesque (the whole black milk from her boobs thing, eww) that I had no trouble picturing her as one of the devils. But supposing your hypothesis is true -- supposing Ateh has been split into male and female -- then who is her male half in the 17th century? Or are you suggesting that she split after that?

Altho if the Khazars were Jewish all along, which the text seems to support in some places, then Ateh could have been the Judaic devil from the start.

(Interestingly, maybe , the male/female versions of the story shed no light on things for me. They seemed stereotypical -- the female version is all about an emotional reaction and the male is all about action, albeit stayed to hear Muawia out.)

I agree with you about Masudi/Muawia. There's no other place for Masudi to go.

Do you think the author is making any global comments about the three religions? Given that he's Serbian, I would think so....

[peter]

......Ok Ali, thats about as far as it goes re descent lines. Do Cohen/Schultz and Masudi/Muawa have 7C. precursers - I don't know; if they do I haven't spotted them yet. Similarly the Satans seem to have no 7C. charachterisations (with the exeption of Ateh who is a special case at best if I am correct about her and plain not one if I am wrong).

Ok I've said what I think the book to be 'about', I've outlined my ideas on the pathlines of the charachters - now what about the male and female paragraphs, the understanding of which are supposedly the key to the whole edifice. Well again I offer the following only as an idea - not right or wrong, but just the best I can come up with.
As a bit of background, Schultz has gone down to kill Muawia for the damage he inflicted on her husband in the Israeli/Egyptian conflict of 1967. As she is about to pull the trigger he hands her some sheets of paper on which to her amazement are purported copies of the thought to be lost 'Khazar Orations of St Cyril' from the 8th C.
In the male version of the book she reads the lines, thinking about Halevi's tree before doing so, and is shattered by what she reads.
In the female version she accidentaly brushes thumbs with Muawia and is shattered by the touch, to the point where the words on the papers have no meaning to her because she has learned more from the touch of thumbs.
Ok - what is this all about. Well the observations re the tree are no more or less than the reunification of heaven and hell via the intermediary of mankind as the bridge between the two. Elsewhere we are told that Christianity and Islam form the branches and flowers of the tree respectively and Judaism the roots. Shultz's thoughts are of the order that as we reach higher to God like the tree's roots we have to go deeper toward hell the two are insepparable from each other. At some point all will come together and unity will once again be established. To this end the dream walkers have striven in their own respective faiths to collect and colate all of the Knowledge about God, each to some extent unaware that the only the knowledge of all three faiths put together would elevate man to his rightful place at Gods side. In the male version the reading of Cyrils lost orations undoes the damage done by the inquisitions bastardisation of the text and for the first time indeed since the polemic the correct and unadulterated texts are in place ready to be brought together.
In the female version the touching of the thumbs brings the male and the female parts of the Dictionary together and imbues the text with motion and life. She experiences a glimpse of the completed work of the re-unification of the body of Adam (broken into the dreams of men, the lives of mankind) in the brush of thumbs with Muawia. So as I see it, in the male version she has the knowledge of the words, in the female that knowledge comes together with the reunification of the male and the female and the result is a momentary glimpse of the full force of the glory of the completed Adam, The Great Work. She briefly see's the prize that awaits mankind when man and woman, God and Devil, Heaven and Hell are brought back together into their unified whole.

And there you have it. This is where I have come to after all these readings and thinkings. It's the best I can do. There are still so many unanswered questions and unresolved connections that I would barely know where to begin to explain them - But, perhaps I cuold just list a few.

i) Suk's copy of the Dictionary was not found in his hotel room. Did he use the egg to save it (we were told the egg could be used this way) or did Mr Van der Spaak get the book when he killed Suk, or was he able, even, to save both himself AND the book.
ii) Whose female footsteps was Schultz hearing behind her in the corridor on her way to Suks room.
iii) Who was toasting bread by the fire in the hotel kitchen.
iv) Why did Manuil not want to damage Muawia's teeth and whats all this stuff about a blood necktie and ..............ad infinitum

Well that's it Ali. You've got the lot. Thanks for your patience and if ever you suss out where I have gone wrong or come up with a different explanation for it all then let me know. For now I'm done .

[peter]

Well nearly ,
Just seen your last post Ali and have to show you the respect of answering it as you have shown me the respect of reading the reams of my drivel No seriousely Ali, I do appreciate that!

Yes Lukarevitch is not nice - but then is Ateh? The split would I think be after Lucarevich. I struggle to reconcile the thumbs thing though. I originally thought of Haderash divesting Ateh of her sex not by taking it away, but rather by adding the male sex to her so she was neither one nor the other but both. This leaves the problem of Ateh having no thumbs then. If however we accept Lucarovitch as the one who splits perhaps she keps her two thumbs as a sign to Cohen as she said she would. I don't know - it's a bit weak I admit but the best can come up with. The thumbs as identifiers are usefull but they do create their own problems!
I do believe the Jewish connection with the Khazars is by far the strongest (in fact what is known about the khazars in 'real life' implies I believe that they did indeed convert to Judaism. I may be wrong here but I do seem to remember having read that).
Re Pavic's underlying ideas, I believe he has admited that the story is allegorical of the serbian history. I couldn't get it myself but I believe it to be so.
re the spoiler thing - I hadn't thought of that Ali. If you think it better to eliminate these posts then by all means do so (as a mod you can do that can't you.) This stuff was meant for you Ali, and once you have seen it, it has served it's purpose and I wouldn't want to spoil the book for anyone else (though how my ideas could ever be pulled into a coherent 'spoiler' beggars beleif )

[aliantha]

Thanks, peter, for indulging me with your thoughts about this book. You've taken it a whole lot farther than I ever would have!

Being Pagan, my suggestion for the 7th century devils would be the participants in the Khazar polemic itself. But I'm very likely wrong! Altho if Pavic sees the major religions not as paths to God so much as hegemonies that overran and laid waste to his country, the idea doesn't seem so far-fetched after all.

Re your tree -- numerous religions with an Indo-European background speak of a "world tree", with the crown in the heavens with the gods, the roots in the underworld with the dead, and the trunk in our world with the living. So this may also be another spin on that idea.

This was fun. I'm going to move this thread into the general fantasy forum now. (Mostly I left it here so I'd remember to check for your posts. ) Maybe you'll pick up a little more business if we move it out of GenDisc.

[peter]

Chow Ali - thanks for being part of that. It was really a really good way to get my own ideas into shape (and indeed see their failings) by having to put them in a way that someone else could comprehend (possibly ). Also I have added a 'spoiler warning' to the first post of the thread warning that page 3 is bang full of 'em!

As I said earlier - your book will be one of the two I read in Istanbul later this year. You might be able to guess the other one .

p.s. Next I intend to tackle the Schleswig-Holstein question .

[aliantha]

I doubt my book will be as interesting to you as either the "Dictionary of the Khazars" or your other reading material. But I hope you like it anyway.

p.s. Next I intend to tackle the Schleswig-Holstein question .

Good luck with that!

[peter]

Just finished a further reading of the book and wanted to add a few observations to my notes above. In my re-read I have found the place where Ateh from the 7C. is broken down into the male Manuil of the 20C., ant the female virginia Ateh of the same. The split did not occur at the 7C. Ateh level but at the 17C. Ephronisia Lukarevith level. Lukarevitch visits Count Dracula [of all people] who provides 'expensive healing'. She is bedded and impregnated with the seed of the white reed which grows so fast that by morning she has been split into her male and female avatars of the 20C. nb Ateh seems to have been reunited with the sex [in fact both male and female, evidenced by the two thumbs] from which she was divested, by the time she reincarnates as Lukarovitch.

re The questions I ask at the end of my explanations;

i) No question Suk uses the egg to save the manuscript since when he 'purchases' it from the cello shop-owner he actually asks if it can be used for such a purpose and the broken shell is found in his room next to his corpse. Also it is noted in appendix 2 that no papers or manuscripts were found in his room acompanieing his dead body. I think the ms may have been transported into the future to preserve it from the clutches of the Satans, but can't be sure on this.

ii) The female footsteps were undoubtedly those of Mrs Van der Spaak [the 20C. reincarnation of Nikon Sevast.] He had promised a judgement on Brankovitch in 300 years time in Istanbul and Suk who was killed is undoubtedly the reincarnation of Brankovitch. Dorothea Schultz of course secures her aquital of the murder of Dr Muawa by claiming [falsely] to have been murdering Dr Suk at the time; hence her comment "Thus are we saved by our false victim".

iii) and iv) No further advances to make.

re The male/female paragraph thing; The brushing of thumbs is very significant. It speaks of the male and female aspects of the Creation, of Adam coming together [Adam created by Satan but given life by God remember], it tis the spark of life, the vision of a Heaven and Hell re-united via the agency of Mankind who forms the bridge between the Angels and the Brutes, God and Satan, Heaven and Hell. The Male copy is the Knowledge of Reason [ie the knowledge of the tree, the bridge etc] imparted by Satan to his Creation, the Female Copy is the spark of Life imparted by God, without which all the knowledge is so much chaff.

Additional note; In case I've never said it above, the compilation of the Dictionary as the collective wisdom of the three monotheistic faiths concerning the nature of their own particular Adams, is as much about the coming together of the three faiths as the book itself. Untill the three reunite and combine their knowledge, Heaven can never be reunited with Hell, nor God with Satan, nor man with moman. The entire sucess or failure of the Plan - that glorious reuniting of which Schultz was given a glimpse, is dependant upon this.