Crippled God & Lord Foul
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Yeah, TCG did many evil things. Not his fault, though. He was lashing out in extraordinary pain at those who caused that pain. Consider:
'In the time when I was nothing but pain, when all that came from me was spite, and the hunger to hurt this world...'
He was harmed in more and greater ways than anything we can imagine, and it made him want to cause harm in return. He was blinded with searing pain every instant for millennia. Every try to help an animal caught in one of those traps that clamps your leg? Or even a dog that's caught in a rope that's twisted so tight around it that it can't get away? You're gonna get bit but good.
And why do we know he wasn't like that in the first place? Because the above quote is the very first thing he said after he was, as Crone called it, reborn. Less than a minute after being taken out of the horrific pain he'd been suffering for a ***REALLY*** long time. Kaminsod is as good, noble, kind, and loving as any character we've ever heard of.
He says it right off the bat:Fiddler drew closer. 'I'm sorry,' he said.
But the twisted face softened, and in a frail voice, the Crippled God replied, 'No need. Come near - I am still so ... weak. I would tell you something.'
Fiddler walked until he was beside the figure, and then he squatted down. 'We have water. Food.'
But the god shook his head. 'In the time when I was nothing but pain, when all that came from me was spite, and the hunger to hurt this world, I saw you Malazans as no better than all the rest. Children of your cruel gods. Their tools, their weapons.' He paused, drew a rattling breath. 'I should have sensed that you were different - was it not your emperor's champion who defied Hood at the last Chaining? Did he not cry out that what they sought was unjust? Did he not pay terribly for his temerity?'
Fiddler shook his head. 'I know nothing about any of that, Lord.'
'When he came to me - your emperor - when he offered me a way out ... I was mistrustful. And yet ... and yet, what do I see now? Here, standing before me? A Malazan.'
Fiddler said nothing. He could hear conversations from all the slope sides of the barrow, voices raised in wonder, and plenty of cursing.
'You are not like the others. Why is this? I wish to understand, Malazan. Why is this?'
'I don't know.'
'And now you will fight to protect me.'
'We can't break these chains - she was wrong about that.'
'No matter, Malazan. If I am to lie here, bound for the rest of days, still - you will fight to defend me.'
Fiddler nodded.
'I wish I could understand.'
'So do I,' Fiddler said with a grimace. 'But, maybe, in the scrap to come, you'll get a ... I don't know ... a better sense of us.'
'You are going to die for me, a foreign god.'
'Gods can live for ever and make real their every desire. We can't. They got powers, to heal, to destroy, even to resurrect themselves. We don't. Lord, to us, all gods are foreign gods.'
The bound man sighed. 'When you fight, then, I will listen. For this secret of yours. I will listen.'
'In the time when I was nothing but pain, when all that came from me was spite, and the hunger to hurt this world...'
He was harmed in more and greater ways than anything we can imagine, and it made him want to cause harm in return. He was blinded with searing pain every instant for millennia. Every try to help an animal caught in one of those traps that clamps your leg? Or even a dog that's caught in a rope that's twisted so tight around it that it can't get away? You're gonna get bit but good.
And why do we know he wasn't like that in the first place? Because the above quote is the very first thing he said after he was, as Crone called it, reborn. Less than a minute after being taken out of the horrific pain he'd been suffering for a ***REALLY*** long time. Kaminsod is as good, noble, kind, and loving as any character we've ever heard of.
"You have no understanding of what his title of Sword signifies - he is without equal in this world." -- K'rul
ahhhh. thanks tool. reminding me how much i loved the malazans. fid.
in the journey that was The Malazan Book of the Fallen there were so many things that Erikson taught me about "gods". don't know how i could ever repay him, really.
thanks for making the case for kaminsod tool. you rock.
in the journey that was The Malazan Book of the Fallen there were so many things that Erikson taught me about "gods". don't know how i could ever repay him, really.
thanks for making the case for kaminsod tool. you rock.
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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So, he was hurt badly by people, then did evil things in retaliation, and finally realised that he was acting out of spite. And then...what...is redeemed by the realisation?Onos T'oolan wrote:Yeah, TCG did many evil things. Not his fault, though. He was lashing out in extraordinary pain at those who caused that pain.
Like Angus a bit maybe? Anyway, perhaps all Foul is lacking is the realisation.
The question is, does suffering like that make it ok to do evil things? If you're sorry afterwards?
--A
no. that's not the issue at all i don't think. how did you get there?Avatar wrote:So, he was hurt badly by people, then did evil things in retaliation, and finally realised that he was acting out of spite. And then...what...is redeemed by the realisation?Onos T'oolan wrote:Yeah, TCG did many evil things. Not his fault, though. He was lashing out in extraordinary pain at those who caused that pain.
Like Angus a bit maybe? Anyway, perhaps all Foul is lacking is the realisation.
The question is, does suffering like that make it ok to do evil things? If you're sorry afterwards?
--A
we were only talking about the differences (and similarities) between foul and kaminsod. not whether either were justified in doing evil.
there is no justification (or "it's okay" cause i'm a victim) for doing bad things.
besides, i'll once again point out that the major difference between the two characters is that kaminsod is an actual being whose story unfolds for us. foul is not. foul is a symbol for dispite and serves no other purpose in the story of the actual characters (covenant, linden, joan, etc.)
i hate to be the one to break it to you people but the land isn't real. it's allegory.
that is WHY "it doesn't matter" if the land is real or not. because it's SYMBOLS.
thus this whole thread is an exercise in futility because the two characters being compared AREN'T COMPARABLE.
(sorry orlion )
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
- Onos T'oolan
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Av, it's not that he realized that he was acting out of spite, and chose to stop. We're talking about a change of being that's far beyond what we usually see. And both times he was changed, in both directions, were pretty much instantaneous. It's very much like there were two different beings.
One was what I meant by animals who are trapped in painful ways, and what happens to you when you try to help them. TCG was a savagely damaged being whose every thought and act was born out of pain. He knew he was brought there by beings of that world, and that the bringing caused the hideous damage to him. Then, instead of helping him - gathering the parts, healing as best they could - the gods of that world chained him so that he would never know another state of being other than the one he was in. In the state he was in - broken, scattered, pain beyond imagining - he was incapable of acting in any way but from that state. He did not have his full faculties.
But the very instant he was healed, he was his old self. No more spite. No more lashing out. Nothing but awe that these Malazans were going to die for him. He had his full faculties again, and acted from them. If there's even the smallest lingering thoughts of revenge for a hundred thousand years of intentional torture, we don't see it. Instead, we see this:
One was what I meant by animals who are trapped in painful ways, and what happens to you when you try to help them. TCG was a savagely damaged being whose every thought and act was born out of pain. He knew he was brought there by beings of that world, and that the bringing caused the hideous damage to him. Then, instead of helping him - gathering the parts, healing as best they could - the gods of that world chained him so that he would never know another state of being other than the one he was in. In the state he was in - broken, scattered, pain beyond imagining - he was incapable of acting in any way but from that state. He did not have his full faculties.
But the very instant he was healed, he was his old self. No more spite. No more lashing out. Nothing but awe that these Malazans were going to die for him. He had his full faculties again, and acted from them. If there's even the smallest lingering thoughts of revenge for a hundred thousand years of intentional torture, we don't see it. Instead, we see this:
Their flesh is all they know - all these men and women here. Flesh as now clothes me. Feel our limits, our terrible limits. So frail, so temporary. A flitting light, a moment's breath.
I hear you surrendering it. This one gift that is the only gift ever given you - you yield it badk into the firmament. And the world passed on, barely taking notice.
Will no one notice?
I will heed your deaths. I will remember.
Hedge was silent beside him, but not asleep - if he had been, his snores would have driven them all from this place, the Crippled God included, chains be damned. And from the army still surrounding them, down on the lower ground, nothing more than a sullen mutter of sound - soldiers resting, checking weapons and armor. Readying for the next assault.
The last assault.
Twenty-odd soldiers cannot stop an army.
Even these soldiers.
Someone coughed nearby, from some huddle of stones, and then spoke. 'So, who are we fighting for again?'
Fiddler could not place the voice.
Nor the one that replied, 'Everyone.'
A long pause, and then, 'No wonder we're losing.'
Six, a dozen heartbeats, before someone snorted. A rumbling laugh followed, and then someone else burst out in a howl of mirth - and all at once, from the dark places among the rocks of this barrow, laughter burgeoned, rolled round, bounced and echoed.
Fiddler felt his mouth cracking wide in a grin, and then he barked a laugh, and then another. And then he simply could not stop, pain clenching his side. Beside him, Hedge was suddenly hysterical, twisting over and curling up as the laughter poured out of him.
Tears now in Fiddler's eyes - wiping them frantically - but the laughter went on.
And on.
...
Lying beneath the weight of the chains, the Crippled God, who had been listening, now heard. Long-forgotten, half-disbelieved emotions rose up through him, ferocious and bright. He drew a sharp breath, feeling his throat tighten. I will remember this. I will set out scrolls and burn upon them the names of these Fallen. I will make of this work a holy tome, and no other shall be needed.
Hear them! They are humanity unfurled, laid out for all to see - if one would dare look!
There shall be a Book and it shall be written by my hand. Wheel and seek the faces of a thousand gods! None can do what I can do! Not one can give voice to this holy creation!
But this is not bravado. For this, my Book of the Fallen, the only god worthy of its telling is the crippled one. The broken one. And has it not always been thus?
I never hid my hurts.
I never disguised my dreams.
And I never lost my way.
And the fallen can rise again.
He listened to the laughter, and suddenly the weight of those chains was as nothing. Nothing.
"You have no understanding of what his title of Sword signifies - he is without equal in this world." -- K'rul
- Horrim Carabal
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Well my opinion is that books 9-10 of the MbotF were sort of sub-standard.
I didn't like the way Erikson wrapped up the story, seemed like a lot of it was shoe-horned in. Twists just to be twists, etc.
Also not a fan of some of his plot choices. Why make the Crippled God into some sort of a "good guy"? (and please, stop yourself before you tell me 'the clues were there all along!')
Cotillion and Shadowthrone...all their schemes and plots led to...a knife in the back? Subtle.
Draconus does nothing, really. His plotline just sort of peters out. As does Ublala's...and Kallors...and Silverfox's...and Karsa's (I know, it will be continued in some future tale...)
T'iam didn't manifest. Korabas was shunted aside, basically status quo. Tayschrenn disappeared.
So many unfinished parts. And the parts that were finished, I found disappointing.
I loved the series in total, but the last two books leave me unsatisfied. Even in the early books, there were some real head-scratchers. Any writer who creates a character as awesome as Tattersail - a character I would have read whole books about - and then sort of discards her haplessly as if he had no idea what to do with her... that's disappointing.
I didn't like the way Erikson wrapped up the story, seemed like a lot of it was shoe-horned in. Twists just to be twists, etc.
Also not a fan of some of his plot choices. Why make the Crippled God into some sort of a "good guy"? (and please, stop yourself before you tell me 'the clues were there all along!')
Cotillion and Shadowthrone...all their schemes and plots led to...a knife in the back? Subtle.
Draconus does nothing, really. His plotline just sort of peters out. As does Ublala's...and Kallors...and Silverfox's...and Karsa's (I know, it will be continued in some future tale...)
T'iam didn't manifest. Korabas was shunted aside, basically status quo. Tayschrenn disappeared.
So many unfinished parts. And the parts that were finished, I found disappointing.
I loved the series in total, but the last two books leave me unsatisfied. Even in the early books, there were some real head-scratchers. Any writer who creates a character as awesome as Tattersail - a character I would have read whole books about - and then sort of discards her haplessly as if he had no idea what to do with her... that's disappointing.
horrim why did you put it like that? "stop yourself before you tell me..."
i'm not gonna say "clues" were there all along. what i think was there inherant in the story to begin with were the questions. who is this guy (the crippled god) and why is he such an asshole? what was there from the outset was the mystery of who he was and why he was chained. so no, i don't think there were "clues" about anything much, regarding him, except hints and allegations about the extant gods chaining him. *shrug*
sorry you were left unsatisfied.
try again. maybe next time around...
i'm not gonna say "clues" were there all along. what i think was there inherant in the story to begin with were the questions. who is this guy (the crippled god) and why is he such an asshole? what was there from the outset was the mystery of who he was and why he was chained. so no, i don't think there were "clues" about anything much, regarding him, except hints and allegations about the extant gods chaining him. *shrug*
sorry you were left unsatisfied.
try again. maybe next time around...
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
- Mr. Broken
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IMO, and please spoil this if I step over the line, the 10th book contained the single biggest revelation of all.
That being that the Book of the Fallen was an actual thing, not just a catchy title. The story lines that received resolution were pertinent to the story of the Crippled God, which ended with the 10th book. Leaving the future wide open for the Malazan Book of Dragons, or the Malazan Book of the Tiste, or ... well I think you get the idea, despite my feeble, fictional titles. Dont be dissappointed, we already know there is more to come.
That being that the Book of the Fallen was an actual thing, not just a catchy title. The story lines that received resolution were pertinent to the story of the Crippled God, which ended with the 10th book. Leaving the future wide open for the Malazan Book of Dragons, or the Malazan Book of the Tiste, or ... well I think you get the idea, despite my feeble, fictional titles. Dont be dissappointed, we already know there is more to come.
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I suppose stranger things have happened, but I find it impossible to believe that he put the incredible amount of work into the first eight books that must have been required to make them so incredible and detailed, then just threw the last two together. I'm sure it was all planned out in great detail.Horrim Carabal wrote:Well my opinion is that books 9-10 of the MbotF were sort of sub-standard.
I didn't like the way Erikson wrapped up the story, seemed like a lot of it was shoe-horned in. Twists just to be twists, etc.
But aside from that, I think the last two were superb. I never once tried to guess at what was going to happen, knowing I'd never come close. Maybe I liked it better because my expectations were not disappointed?
Heh. No, I won't say the clues were there, either. But, as Luci says, we had to ask ourselves about him all along. I wasn't too many books into the series before I realized he had been screwed far more than most any other character I'd ever read about. I couldn't help but wonder if he had been a great guy in the first place. Turns out he was. Turns out he was an even greater guy than I'd imagined.Horrim Carabal wrote:Also not a fan of some of his plot choices. Why make the Crippled God into some sort of a "good guy"? (and please, stop yourself before you tell me 'the clues were there all along!')
The greatest assassin ever, the one who became the god of assassins, ended up solving the problem by assassination? Heh. And it worked. Kaminsod was freed.Horrim Carabal wrote:Cotillion and Shadowthrone...all their schemes and plots led to...a knife in the back? Subtle.
We will hear more about some. I'm sure we'll see Ublala as he travels with Icarium. Silverfox will be in Assail. Karsa's gonna have a whole series. Who can guess where Kallor will show up, as he continues on with his endless, cursed existence.Horrim Carabal wrote:Draconus does nothing, really. His plotline just sort of peters out. As does Ublala's...and Kallors...and Silverfox's...and Karsa's (I know, it will be continued in some future tale...)
T'iam didn't manifest. Korabas was shunted aside, basically status quo. Tayschrenn disappeared.
So many unfinished parts. And the parts that were finished, I found disappointing.
I loved the series in total, but the last two books leave me unsatisfied. Even in the early books, there were some real head-scratchers. Any writer who creates a character as awesome as Tattersail - a character I would have read whole books about - and then sort of discards her haplessly as if he had no idea what to do with her... that's disappointing.
But I'm actually impressed that he didn't try to tie up every character's story. I don't know what happened to the teachers I had growing up. Or that nasty boss I once had. Or hundreds of other people I've known. I think it's very realistic that we don't get everybody all wrapped up nicely.
And maybe it had to happen this way. He told the best story I've ever read. It was extraordinary because it had so many characters of note. He couldn't have done what he did with less characters. All of them gave a depth to the story that isn't found often. Many were instrumental. Many were there to give the instrumental ones a more thorough setting. It would have been impossible to tie up all of those characters satisfactorily, so he didn't try. If he'd done it in the same space, it would have felt rushed. If he'd taken another couple books to get them all done right, and it would have taken another couple books, we'd be upset that he spent so much time following plotlines that didn't really contribute to the story.
As for T'iam and Korabas, I suspect their actions - and they surely did act - will be felt for a long time. I hope we are told just what it all did to the whole universe. Parts of the world were destroyed just by Korabas flying over it. And what did it do to the population in Starvald Demelain? Is there a balance of power that was shifted?
"You have no understanding of what his title of Sword signifies - he is without equal in this world." -- K'rul
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- Mr. Broken
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- Horrim Carabal
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Guess I'm just not drinking the Kool-Aid on Erikson. Somewhere during "The Bonehunters" the series tailed off in my opinion.
That having been said, I'd love to read new books about Kallor, Icarium, Karsa, etc.
I just can't help being a bit underwhelmed by a 10 book series that still has so many unfinished, dangling plotlines. Call me demanding, but a 10 book, close to 9000-page story SHOULDN'T have unfinished, dangling plotlines.
That having been said, I'd love to read new books about Kallor, Icarium, Karsa, etc.
I just can't help being a bit underwhelmed by a 10 book series that still has so many unfinished, dangling plotlines. Call me demanding, but a 10 book, close to 9000-page story SHOULDN'T have unfinished, dangling plotlines.
- Horrim Carabal
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