The Paradox of Time and Its theft of Free Will

[Jadawin24]

I will base my thesis upon the first chapter in Against All Things Endings. I will further narrow this down to the first paragraph in that chapter: The Burden of Too Much Time.

For clarity I will quote the entire first paragraph.

Thomas Covenant knelt on the rich grass of Andelain as though he had fallen there from the distance eons. He was full of the heavens and time. He had spent uncounted millennia among the essential strictures of creation, participating in every manifestation of the Arch: he had been as inhuman as the stars, and as alone. He had seen everything, known everything--and had labored to preserve it. From the first dawn of the Earth to the ripening of the Earthpower in the Land--from the deepest root of mountains to the farthest constellations--he had witnessed and understood and served. Across the ages, he had wielded his singular self in defense of Law and Life.

A brief side note: I had the strangest feeling writing that paragraph. Something quite unique as if I was looking though the eyes of the author as he typed the words. Most odd.

As revealed in previous books in this final series, TC had the means to interjecting himself into the events unfolding. This indicates that his presence in the Arch of Time is not some distance manifestation of TC in his continual defense of Law and Life. He can in some fashion be an active participant in the present march of time. there is fundamental paradox that not address, though.

I will pull a phrase, that applies directly to my presentation of this thesis from Battlestar Galactica, the new series.

“This has all happen before, and it will all happen again.” Such is the Paradox of Time!

Using the opening paragraph as support he had existed within the arch of time from the first dawn of the Earth. He had seen everything, known everything. There is only result from this information: TC is now aware of future events. Limited to a degree, but knowledge nonetheless of moments of import yet to come.

He knows that he will exist in the future in the Land. His future presence is revealed by his arrival with LA in the time of Berek. Even though his appearance is in the guise of an illusion, he gleams information as his role in the future.
This he must of learned.

He learns of LA. He learns of her love for him. Her love for her son. He knows her mission. He knows her importance to the Land to come.
This he must of learned.

He knows that he will possess a ring of white gold.
This he must of learned.

He knows that it is LA who brings the one who will teach Earthpower to Berek. That it from the future that the knowledge comes .
This he must of learned.

He knows there is a Staff of Law created in the future, turned black in the battle, modified and made stronger.
This he must of learned.

He knows he has a child in the future. A child who becomes a spectra of evil, and in battle the first Staff of Law is destroyed.
This he must of learned.

He will learn that the Staff of Law of LA carries is the second Staff of Law.
This he must of learned.

All this, and more, he must of learned of. TC, “life,” within the Arch of Time, has not been shown to have to have a future sense, the knowledge of what is to come. He acts to the moment. That is what is meant by, “across the ages, he had wielded his singular self in defense of Law and Life.

Therefore, the conclusion is startling. Up till the moment of TC’s resurrection there has never been any free will. Event unfolded because they had to. The actions of the past put into the motion of all events to come. Predestination.

There is a vast number of things TC will learn over the eons. For instance: The Staff of Law the Lords wield is not the same staff LA uses is not the blacken staff in the time of Berek after the battle under the mountain. He knows this as time progresses to the time of its knowledge comes into the land, or it is the same staff but cured of the stain.

What conclusions can be reach then by thesis. TC knew of his death. Knew he would be in the arch of time. He was in the Arch of Time at moment of his first summoning to the Land. So was it the creator who really he met that day? What of the danger operating outside the Arch of Time? It was written there was great danger to do that. I put forth the proposition that it was Thomas himself who TC met on that road.

The question has to be asked, how was it that he was picked of all people. How was it that he wore a ring of white gold, and the effect it would have on the land? Only one person could know of it. TC himself in the Arch of Time. The strange words, “remember that there is yet love in the world.” That only been meant for the future events with LA. It was he who offered to return TC to the Land or save him as the snake antivenin was killing him from the snake bite.

It is important to remember that TC knew he would be in the Arch of Time,

The paradox of time, is that he was already in the Arch of Time when he died. Only that way did he have the immediate strength to resist Lord Foul. Only his body died. Ordained to be so. His entire existence in the Land, all he did, or did not do, was as if he was on autopilot. All the time he was there, watching from the Arch of time. All this created by the paradox of time, and the knowledge it gave before it should of ever of been.

This cycle of time repeats itself to infinity up to the point of TC resurrection at the beginning of book three. It has to. This is the paradox of time travel. The question that remains is there anything that could break this cycle?

The answer is clearly yes. It appears only TC himself can break it. He must not summon himself to the land. Again from the first paragraph, “Across the ages, he had wielded his singular self in defense of Law and Life.” He must leave hope of survival in the land of the defenders of the land and his singular self in defense of Law and Life. This is only option to exercise free will. An option never his before. Either that or allow events to play out as they are to be from what he gleans from what he learns from the time of Berek.

These are the thoughts I have put forth in support of thesis.

Thank you for you time and attention.

Chris

[Orlion]

Couple things: You have TC as human and TC as Timewarden. These are distinct beings, with distinct abilities and distinct habitats. As Timewarden, TC was able to flow through time and do whatever it is he can do as a result. However, this would also restrict him, since we was a being of Time, he could not exist outside of Time (or in Space) like TC human could. As an example, it's like a fish. It exists primarily in water, but can jump into the air briefly for whatever reason. However, if it stays in air for any amount of time, it will die as a fish.

Also, it seemed in the First Chronicles that the Creator, or the Man in the Ochre robe, had doubts as to whether or not TC would save the Land. He called it a "risk". This means that, for the MitOR to be also TC, then as Timewarden he doesn't a) know everything, even things that have all ready happened that he has seen. b)There is no predestination, there is always uncertainty, even when an act has been done, it may not have been done.

[Jadawin24]

thank you so much for you kind reply.

[quotAs Timewarden, TC was able to flow through time and do whatever it is he can do as a result. However, this would also restrict him, since we was a being of Time, he could not exist outside of Time (or in Space) like TC human could. As an example, it's like a fish. It exists primarily in water, but can jump into the air briefly for whatever reason. However, if it stays in air for any amount of time, it will die as a fishe]

Flow thru time to what point? To the exact present seconds as they move forward or does the timewarden pass the boundry of past and present, and moves into the future?

I can not quote certain aspects of the books. I can only try to put into words what the many readings of the books have impressed me with or made me wonder about for the past 30 years.

To me there still seems a paradox in what you say.

TC the human. TC the TW.

When TC is killed the TW is at the moment in the Arch already. If TC and the TW are of seperate realities then when TC died the TW already knew of it. It was not then TC who took the blows of power against the arch, but the TW.

The TW knew he had too. If we accept that the TW can not flow past the present moment, then the paradox of time is again suspected to be of reality.

If the TW can flow past the present moment, travel and see into the future, again the paradox of time is at play.

Either way the TW had to be there. Timewarden might better imply that time is his warden. not that he is time's warden.

I have reread that first chapter a few times now. From tone and content, the author does not seem to make TC etheral. There is more a tone of substance to TC. The act of fighting to maintain life and law. Fighting is a direct action. long term, daily.
The creator, and risk of TC failure. something TC would know to piss himself off.


[/quote]--he had witnessed and understood and served. Across the ages, he had wielded his singular self in defense of Law and Life.

witnessed and understood and served.

things seen in the past, understood to be future events, and served to the completion.

Wielded his singular self in defense of Law and Life.

events must unfold as the strictures of Law dictate.
Life must progress as events dictate

TC is the TW... He is the guardian of time.. He is not just a casual observer. He is Law and Life. AS much a slave to it as he a guardian.

these are my thoughts, as scattered as they are. If you want to know about me, trying to get a straight thought out of me is not impossible. The will be many curves with some deadends before the end is reached.

thanks again for you time and attention. It is really nice chatting with you.

with regards,

chris

[Vraith]

I think there was a "first time," and a change.
"Before" TC was the TW, the past was set in stone...any change in the past would have shattered the Arch...if he hadn't become TW due to LF's error in judgement, then even if Linden/Joan had for some reason been necessary and summoned, their time actions would have ended the Arch pretty quickly.
Once TC became alloyed with the Arch, it became a bit more malleable/flexible. His conscious presence/symbiosis holds and heals it.

I might even go so far as to say the prime reason [among other still important reasons] TC's freedom of choice was necessary is that, "before" he became TW, the world WAS more pre-determined.

[Jadawin24]

Thank you for your kind remarks.

The paradox of time travel is just that: a paradox. As with Pandora, once the box is opened, you can not lock in again what has escaped.

I would like again to return to the first chapter of vol 3 first paragraph.

Thomas Covenant knelt on the rich grass of Andelain as though he had fallen there from the distance eons. He was full of the heavens and time. He had spent uncounted millennia among the essential strictures of creation, participating in every manifestation of the Arch: he had been as inhuman as the stars, and as alone. He had seen everything, known everything--and had labored to preserve it. From the first dawn of the Earth to the ripening of the Earthpower in the Land--from the deepest root of mountains to the farthest constellations--he had witnessed and understood and served. Across the ages, he had wielded his singular self in defense of Law and Life.

The TW is proactive and reactive: He had spent uncounted millennia among the essential strictures of creation, participating in every manifestation of the Arch: he had been as inhuman as the stars, and as alone. He had seen everything, known everything--and had labored to preserve it.

Did the TW have the ability to see past the present moment. Page 567 speaks of his repeated visits to watch the forestals singing. A moment that always gave him great joy.

If as TW he can only exist in time up to the present moment than he does learn that he will exist thousands of years after the time of berek as TC. If he can travel pass the moment of now, into the future then he is impotant:

Across the ages, he had wielded his singular self in defense of Law and Life.

I do not believe he can move past the present moment.

So we have two timelines: The one moving forward in the chronicles.

The second one created by LA Trip into the time of Berek. An enternal loop never ending: she goes back to the time of berek, as she comes back across the spans of years, to her present, she passes thru all of 1st and 2nd series, and all actions of first two books, to the point she moves again back in time to berek. She never returns to the present moment. only to the point in the story she left with all that has happen as detailed prior . Only in the in books so far, the orginal timeline of events, does she return, but in that she creats the second timeline.

In that creation, there is no freewill, It all has happen before and will all happen again. A cruel fate indeed.

Perhaps they are but shadows of reality and their existance is meaningless. I think that might be correct, still, in their infinite loop, they are not aware and think they are alive A life for all those who lived and died from the time of LA trip to the time of berek, to the moment she returnes to the time of berek again.

The TW is aware of this paradox created. The TW knows that even he will be forever trapped within repitition. He is powerless to change the future. He can be all that he described to be in paragraph one. Existence and time ends as LA moves back in time. The TW appears once more at the moment of his creation. From that point, all is repeated.

Thus is the paradox of time. In this presentation the arch of time is never in danger. Time simply ceases at the moment LA moves backward to berek, it fades to black, and the house lights shine again on act 1 scene one.

These are my thoughts. I hope I explained them correctly. I invite any to comment. thanks so much.



[/quote]

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The second one created by LA Trip into the time of Berek. An enternal loop never ending: she goes back to the time of berek, as she comes back across the spans of years, to her present, she passes thru all of 1st and 2nd series, and all actions of first two books, to the point she moves again back in time to berek. She never returns to the present moment. only to the point in the story she left with all that has happen as detailed prior . Only in the in books so far, the orginal timeline of events, does she return, but in that she creats the second timeline.

There is no second time-line, only the fulfillment of prophecy. How did anybody know about white gold in the First Chrons? Linden Avery. How did anybody know about the white gold wielder in the First Chrons? Linden Avery. But these legends were purposely instilled by the Theomach who met and who knew Linden Avery thousands of years in the past. It is through them that these legends came to be.

[Vraith]

I suppose you could be correct...but I don't think it's necessary, or so.
There's plenty of evidence that white gold was known about, in theory if not by anyone having any, before Linden, and before any time Linden visited.
I mean, the entire basis of Insequent magic is in imitation of white gold...and they predate any presence of white gold by ages.

There were more than one past...but only one at a time.
There is only one final future...but infinite, non-existent [yet] paths to get there.

[Orlion]

Having two TCs (the human and the TW) is not so paradoxical. We all go through changes. There use to be an Orlion the child, someday they'll be an Orlion the old, crotchety man. Both of these, though Orlion, are different beings, made up of different stuffs.

Of course, then we get into the ship paradox

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I suppose you could be correct...but I don't think it's necessary, or so.
There's plenty of evidence that white gold was known about, in theory if not by anyone having any, before Linden, and before any time Linden visited.
I mean, the entire basis of Insequent magic is in imitation of white gold...and they predate any presence of white gold by ages.

There were more than one past...but only one at a time.
There is only one final future...but infinite, non-existent [yet] paths to get there.

White gold is a paradox, it shouldn't exist in the Land. Covenant became the Arch of Time, and wild magic is it's keystone so no paradox there. Maybe he did exist throughout all times and ages, but so does the Arch and its keystone, so no paradox there.

"One at a time" - that is a paradoxical or maybe just circular way of referring to Time itself. One time at a time.

I don't know that the Insequent were trying to imitate white gold. I remember the line you're thinking of and it was only stated that their magic can be likened to wild magic.

[Jadawin24]

Thank you all so much for the kind disscussion of the idea put forth by myself and others on this thread.

I would like to address a topic that has now been brought up: the subject of white gold.

I can not remember, other then the poem about the danger of white gold told for the first time if I remember, in the hall of the Lords, that the suject of white gold was talk of.

I do not remember there was a foretelling of its appearence in the land, or a reappearance. I do not remember a forecast of a saviour pocessing white gold, to appear at the time of the land's most servere need.

(all these do not remembers are said in nice way, not a mean way of shouting like at others, words do not give tone. I do not remember time after time looks like I am being nasty and mean.)

Here is what I think happened.

1. By the paradox of time he was born in the arch at the moment of its creation.
2. as TW he was as described in para 1 chap 1 vol 3.
3. He never doubted himself as TW. He was who he was and did not have awareness that he would in the far future have a physical body.
4. LA trips back to time of Berek. TW discovers he is to have a physical living presence in the land in the future.
5. Through some fashion, more than I can try or understand to explain, this creates the person, time, and place for TC summons to the land.


Oh, btw, here is a thought, In book four the world does end. TC, LA, and all fail. TW flows back to begining of time, and tries again to make it a bit different in the flow of time to correct the end game... lol. dang, this time paradox is a hugh head buster.. or burster.. LOL

Thanks for the time and attention.

Chris

[TheFallen]

In that creation, there is no freewill, It all has happen before and will all happen again. A cruel fate indeed....

The TW is aware of this paradox created. The TW knows that even he will be forever trapped within repitition. He is powerless to change the future.

I really don't see any paradox here. It's a question of perspective and knowledge. TC the man has no real knowledge of what he was aware of as TimeWarden - precisely because he is human. From the very beginning of AATE, we are constantly told that he's forgotten pretty much everything he "knew" when he was part of the Arch of Time. In point of fact, those who seek to thwart TC knock him back into his temporally disjointed memories, an act which removes him from being able to consciously act in or even understand TC the man's present reality.

In fact, it's more than arguable that TC as TimeWarden has no human (and therefore no linear) concept of time - as his fractured memories hint, all moments seem concurrent to him as Timewarden... as TW, he appears to have no concept of "when". The TimeWarden simply endures - that's how he serves and "wields his singular self in defense of Law and Life". He truly becomes "the power that preserves" as foreshadowed by the title of the last book of Chronicles 1.

Once resurrected, TC is faced again with all the limitations and ignorance of humanity, and it's IGNORANCE that is the key here. He no longer knows what he used to and therefore has to make his choices in such ignorance. Even if events are pre-ordained, ignorance of such effectively brings free will. It doesn't even matter if it's genuine free will or the illusion of free will - if the outcome is not known in advance, free will (or its illusion) applies and either carries an equal moral responsibility.

There's a parallel here with the Appointed - they become lessened when they become the thing they've been appointed as. I wouldn't say that TC becomes lessened when he becomes Timewarden, but he certainly loses all aspects of what it is to live within linear time and what it is to be human.

Then there's the "que sera, sera" fatalism fallacy. That's nothing but cowardice under another name. Ethically speaking, TC already knows that it's not a valid philosophical defence to opt out and do nothing, while attempting to take moral cover behind "whatever will be, will be". He has already discovered long before in Chronicles 1 that choosing to sit on the fence and attempting to abrogate personal ethical responsibility by doing nothing is no option and only goes to serve Despite.

Only the powerful can be redeemed, remember? Or to put it another way, only those who strive and act have any chance of preserving that which they value.

[Jadawin24]

In all of this we still have not found an answer to the question of how it came that TC was the one chosen by the "Creator," the become either the destroyer of the land, or the savior of the land, by the pocession of white gold, and its use, one way or the other.

I still support that his appearance in the past, the time of berek, ordained that in time, in the future, the path to his arrival to land will be laid opened. The TW is the guardian of time, is he not? He is aware of all things as described. If he does not insure that TC arrival in the land, the arch of time will indeed be broken. Broken for the Arch is a living thing, as the TW is a living thing.

I support that by page 566: thrid paragraph from the bottom: Unseen with the Arch, unknown to the Forestals, Conenant(TW) had often stood witness to this scene. He(TW) loved it with his whole heart. The TW is active in his role. That is clearly noted, in the now famous paragraph one, chapter one. He moves thur time, he notes things, he returns to things, that, "gives him joy," a fully human emotion.

He sees outside the Arch, inside the arch, and the ramifications of what he sees outside the Arch to its effect to inside the Arch. Is then the creator who is bound by LA trip to the past to insure the appearance of TC in the land, and risk that he breaks the arch, or does the TW cause the appearance of TC. TW is the arch. If it can be manipulated to any degree it would be the TW who would know how do so.

Thank you all for the sharing of thought on my thread.

[Jadawin24]

A thought has occured to me. TC in his role as the TW was there at the time the Creator made the earth. The Creator must of been aware of that. He was the maker of the earth, how could he not.

Would this then force by the Creator to set up the event of TC summoning to the land so in time TC would indeed be in the position to become the TW?

Does the Creator have future knowledge of happenings in the land? Does his might as Creator give him that power? Or is he reactive to events as they unfold?

At the moment of creation, the Creator is in no danger of to the Arch of time, it barely exist. So how much influence does he have in all the events to take place to the point of TC being summoned to the Land?

Is it the Creator himself who is forced to allow LF to come to exist in the Land and all that happens from that? All this from the appearence of TC as the TW for the first time?

Time from the point of the TW might not exist as we now it, in a stright line, but rather a river that flows, never in a stright line. So at the point of creation the TW knows nothing and knows everything.

Can the Creator again descern this?

How again does the effect of the paradox of time affect free will?

Thank you for your words and thought in this thread. You can see I am curious about free will and the actions that affect whether it really exist or is simply a course of predetermined events.

[TheFallen]

Sure, as TimeWarden, TC can observe and in so doing, passively participate. And yes, he can experience joy, as with your example of the Forestals. But he cannot *act* - he is there to endure, to "witness, understand and serve" and bear witness.

In my view, TC as TimeWarden is the crucial element within the Arch of Time and as such, he *cannot* act, other than endure. To do otherwise would break the Arch - much as Findail loses his individuality when combined with Vain in the Staff of Law. The reverse of such passive acceptance is Katenessen, and look at what his abnegation of his duty as Durance has caused.

TC the man has free will (whether real or illusory) via ignorance as I mentioned above. TC the TimeWarden doesn't, or more aptly cannot.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

That's very interesting that you point out the lack of a foretelling of white gold in the Land or a savior bearing white gold. Was that point addressed to me? Anyway, I don't see any of it as necessary, only the circularity of the Land fulfilling its own destiny through Time. If Linden had not gone back in time, there would be paradox. She (or someone) had to bring white gold into the past in order to create the legend of white gold.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Sure, as TimeWarden, TC can observe and in so doing, passively participate. And yes, he can experience joy, as with your example of the Forestals. But he cannot *act* - he is there to endure, to "witness, understand and serve" and bear witness.

In my view, TC as TimeWarden is the crucial element within the Arch of Time and as such, he *cannot* act, other than endure. To do otherwise would break the Arch - much as Findail loses his individuality when combined with Vain in the Staff of Law. The reverse of such passive acceptance is Katenessen, and look at what his abnegation of his duty as Durance has caused.

TC the man has free will (whether real or illusory) via ignorance as I mentioned above. TC the TimeWarden doesn't, or more aptly cannot.

What is illusory free will?

[Jadawin24]

all these do not remembers are said in nice way, not a mean way of shouting like at others, words do not give tone. I do not remember time after time looks like I am being nasty and mean.)

This line was me saying that repeating myself was me not being an a----le. Just it was dramatic effect. That words can not transferred tone to the reader. nothing was meant toward anyone.

Kind of like a lawyer:

Isn't it true over and over... lol

okies.. I never mean offense to anyone. Lord knows I love this exchanging thoughts like this with mature folk... Hmmm.. is that a paradox.. does the lord know I will love this and sets in motion the author to write the books so I will come to love them that in time will lead me to writing this thread.. LOL.. now that is funny..

thanks again for your thoughts and words on this threads. If you have read and not added your thoughts, please do. As with this thread and all others, there is always, No harm no foul.

thanks

[thewormoftheworld'send]

A thought has occured to me. TC in his role as the TW was there at the time the Creator made the earth. The Creator must of been aware of that. He was the maker of the earth, how could he not.

Would this then force by the Creator to set up the event of TC summoning to the land so in time TC would indeed be in the position to become the TW?

I wouldn't think so, but it's a point to ponder if you like.

Does the Creator have future knowledge of happenings in the land? Does his might as Creator give him that power? Or is he reactive to events as they unfold?

The Creator doesn't know the future of his Creation.

At the moment of creation, the Creator is in no danger of to the Arch of time, it barely exist. So how much influence does he have in all the events to take place to the point of TC being summoned to the Land?

I don't think the Arch "barely exists" at the moment of Creation. It either exists entire or it doesn't. And I don't see where he can have any influence on events as they unfold from the moment of the Arch's creation without shattering the Arch.

Is it the Creator himself who is forced to allow LF to come to exist in the Land and all that happens from that? All this from the appearence of TC as the TW for the first time?

I'm not sure what you're asking there. The only effect the Timewarden has is to maintain the Arch, his appearance or existence does not create a paradox in time. And even if there were a paradox, that would be the end of Time.

Time from the point of the TW might not exist as we now it, in a stright line, but rather a river that flows, never in a stright line. So at the point of creation the TW knows nothing and knows everything.

He knows everything up to a point, and that would make him the Earth's greatest historian. But he can exert no physical influence on events. Nor is there any paradox in it.

Can the Creator again descern this?

Oh, I'm sure he can.

How again does the effect of the paradox of time affect free will?

What paradox of time?

Thank you for your words and thought in this thread. You can see I am curious about free will and the actions that affect whether it really exist or is simply a course of predetermined events.

You're welcome!

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Timewarden. Time warden. Warden = guardian. Timewarden = guardian of Time!

What paradox?

[TheFallen]

I can't seem to quote Worm's posts... it's that pesky apostrophe, methinks.

Anyhow, illusory free will as compared to real free will. Real free will - needless to say - means that the entirely voluntary actions that one chooses to take will in some way affect future events by the nature of those actions.

The illusion of free will is at first sight a paradoxical concept. It centres around everything being pre-destined from the start to the end of time, but, although the future is already entirely mapped out, if one doesn't know what that future holds, one still can make apparent choices according to one's ethics/belief sets, even though all results are fully pre-ordained.

It's been way WAY too long since I studied any philosophy, but I seem to remember that the inexorability of events and the universal physical laws laws that he expounded troubled Newton so much that he felt obliged to bring God into the equation to provide a less depressing take on what otherwise would have been an entirely pre-determined clockwork universe. Similarly the Jansenists were all ones for pre-destination, but still believed that one should always be true to one's own moral code. VERY different from the abrogation of personal responsibility that a fatalist would have one believe in.

I've not explained this well at all - my earlier post in this thread re ignorance does better, I think.