Possible spoiler of "The Last Dark" in the GI?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

If the Land is not real, then Foul's got to be even more pissed.

Define reality.

Any 'place' of any description where 'somethings' can, and usually do, say ridiculous things like "Define reality."

That is correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1one

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

Q: How come the people of the land have a command of vocabulary that's almost as good as yours? Cord Bhapa just used the word "guerdon" and I bet he doesn't have a copy of The Oxford English Dictionary. Or even one of your American Webster ones!

Donaldson's answer:-

Spoiler

I'll restrict myself to a short answer. Once you accept the notion that all of these characters find their genesis in Covenant's mind, the explanation is clear. Naturally they know all the words he knows.

'Visksh*t. Someone didn't know the word "sutures." Esmer didn't recognize "keeping count/score" when Linden talked that way. And do Linden and Covenant really know words like "sortilege" or "tocsins"? I've read thousands and thousands of pages of ancient, modern, and technical literature and don't believe I came across those terms until I read SRD's work. Especially with Linden's medical school stint, wouldn't her vocabulary be more medically loaded? (I know, SRD only refers to Covey's lexicon, and he was a writer, presumably based as to his nature, despite SRD's partial denial, on SRD, so, yeah...)

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Q: How come the people of the land have a command of vocabulary that's almost as good as yours? Cord Bhapa just used the word "guerdon" and I bet he doesn't have a copy of The Oxford English Dictionary. Or even one of your American Webster ones!

Donaldson's answer:-

Spoiler

I'll restrict myself to a short answer. Once you accept the notion that all of these characters find their genesis in Covenant's mind, the explanation is clear. Naturally they know all the words he knows.

'Visksh*t. Someone didn't know the word "sutures." Esmer didn't recognize "keeping count/score" when Linden talked that way. And do Linden and Covenant really know words like "sortilege" or "tocsins"? I've read thousands and thousands of pages of ancient, modern, and technical literature and don't believe I came across those terms until I read SRD's work. Especially with Linden's medical school stint, wouldn't her vocabulary be more medically loaded? (I know, SRD only refers to Covey's lexicon, and he was a writer, presumably based as to his nature, despite SRD's partial denial, on SRD, so, yeah...)

It's Covenant's dream. He doesn't want them to know what a "suture" is, and such knowledge possessed by people of the Land would obviously violate the integrity of the dream.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

It's Covenant's dream. He doesn't want them to know what a "suture" is, and such knowledge possessed by people of the Land would obviously violate the integrity of the dream.

He only wants them to know words that make them sound like medieval grad students? Or, worse, pretentious medieval grad students?

I understand Esmer's deficiency because the things Linden is saying are turns of phrase she's accustomed to from a world of keeping score, but a suture is just... a suture.

I wish I could remember the most aggravating in-dialogue Land-native use of an obscure term and try to make a useful point on that basis, but I'm not at home to handily find one in the books...

[thewormoftheworld'send]

It's Covenant's dream. He doesn't want them to know what a "suture" is, and such knowledge possessed by people of the Land would obviously violate the integrity of the dream.

He only wants them to know words that make them sound like medieval grad students? Or, worse, pretentious medieval grad students?

Yes. Covenant is a writer by trade, after all.

I understand Esmer's deficiency because the things Linden is saying are turns of phrase she's accustomed to from a world of keeping score, but a suture is just... a suture.

I wish I could remember the most aggravating in-dialogue Land-native use of an obscure term and try to make a useful point on that basis, but I'm not at home to handily find one in the books...

It's all explained by the "dream" theory, even if it's Linden's dream shared with Covenant. One good early example in the series would be "scenery."

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

So the rule, if that's what it can be legitimately called, is: Landites do not use words that make them seem like people from Covey's world. But since that only excludes certain terms, it allows in all the characters' obduracy in employing the language of obscurity. QED?

[Vraith]

I'm not sure I see the problem [or maybe it just doesn't bug me, so I don't call it a problem].
If the world is real, stuff like this makes sense...if it's a dream, it still does.
I mean, if people can't understand their dreams, why should their dreams understand them?

QED.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

So the rule, if that's what it can be legitimately called, is: Landites do not use words that make them seem like people from Covey's world. But since that only excludes certain terms, it allows in all the characters' obduracy in employing the language of obscurity. QED?

The fact that it's only a fictional character's dream gives SRD certain license to invent as he wishes, just so long as he maintains the integrity of the fantasy. And so yes, the characters of the Land shouldn't have any experience of modern medical terminology or anything else technological for that matter. But they can use other obscure terminology.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

I'm not sure I see the problem [or maybe it just doesn't bug me, so I don't call it a problem].
If the world is real, stuff like this makes sense...if it's a dream, it still does.
I mean, if people can't understand their dreams, why should their dreams understand them?

QED.

I know, but I guess I saw SRD's reply as uninformative because, as you note, Liand can still talk about frangibility (I think that's the horrific choice of words--horrific to my ears, anyway--I was specifically considering) if he's in another dimension or if he's in Covey's world's dreams. So SRD didn't really explain why his characters go on about guerdons, etc. If not all the words Covey and Lindy (and Jerry and Joan and Roger) know are available for use to the Landites because some would seem "anachronistic" or out of place, then why don't the simpler-minded Landites talk more simply?

I don't mind SRD's vocabulary that much (except, again, his use of "frangible"). It's just weird that he infects all his dialogue with it as well as his narrative passages. Unless, perhaps, the thing is that because Covey and Co. talk one way, they subconsciously transfer the other ways they know they could talk into the Landites' dialect. Not sublimation, exactly... Maybe projection's the concept I'm thinking of...

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I'm not sure I see the problem [or maybe it just doesn't bug me, so I don't call it a problem].
If the world is real, stuff like this makes sense...if it's a dream, it still does.
I mean, if people can't understand their dreams, why should their dreams understand them?

QED.

I know, but I guess I saw SRD's reply as uninformative because, as you note, Liand can still talk about frangibility (I think that's the horrific choice of words--horrific to my ears, anyway--I was specifically considering) if he's in another dimension or if he's in Covey's world's dreams. So SRD didn't really explain why his characters go on about guerdons, etc. If not all the words Covey and Lindy (and Jerry and Joan and Roger) know are available for use to the Landites because some would seem "anachronistic" or out of place, then why don't the simpler-minded Landites talk more simply?

I don't mind SRD's vocabulary that much (except, again, his use of "frangible"). It's just weird that he infects all his dialogue with it as well as his narrative passages. Unless, perhaps, the thing is that because Covey and Co. talk one way, they subconsciously transfer the other ways they know they could talk into the Landites' dialect. Not sublimation, exactly... Maybe projection's the concept I'm thinking of...

"Guerdon" is a Middle English word, not a technological term. So it's allowed.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

To be honest, I'm just nitpicking or something, kinda... Drowning in these books. I love them, I swear!

[thewormoftheworld'send]

To be honest, I'm just nitpicking or something, kinda... Drowning in these books. I love them, I swear!

I'm not the Guardian of the Sacred Books. I've made the same observations about the crazy style of dialogue in the Land and I simply have nothing to go by except what SRD answered about it.

[wayfriend]

Donaldson had said about language:

Well, I suppose you could say that I didn't bring up the "language" issue (e.g. between Covenant and Mhoram) because I didn't think of it. <grin> Or you could say that the fact that our characters in our dreams speak our language is so axiomatic that *Covenant* didn't think of it. But the fact is that I considered the whole how-come-you-and-I-and-everyone-in-the-whole-world-can-understand-each-other issue to be an appalling can of worms, and I did *not* want to open it. I foresaw the possibility that I might undermine the entire narrative foundation of the story. In sf, a writer is compelled by the exigencies of the format to confront problems like language barriers. But the underlying assumptions of fantasy are not so rational: they are, in a sense, a-rational (rather than non-rational or irrational), arising as they do from that aspect of the human mind which creates dreams. I was--and am--acutely reluctant to impose the wrong kind of rationality on the story I'm trying to tell in the "Chronicles."

(01/19/2005)

From this we can see that the question your asking here isn't actually something that is relevant to the Chronicles. In fantasy, the answer is "it's magic" -- and you don't worry about it.

And something else I find.

But here's my real answer: since everything about the Land has *some* kind of organic relationship with Covenant's mind, and with Linden's--and since neither Covenant nor Linden has spent thousands of years progressing in his/her use of language--of COURSE the people of the Land still talk the way they did millennia ago.

Whether or not you accept the proposition that the Land is an extension of Covenant's and Linden's minds is beside the point. No one can deny that Covenant and Linden have *some* kind of fundamental and essential relevance to the "reality" of the Land. Parts of the story can be told from "Land-based" perspectives--e.g. from Mhoram's--only because the relationship between those perspectives and Covenant's/Linden's has already been established.

(08/22/2007)

This may be more of an answer that your looking for. Even if you believe the Land is real, there's some weird connection to Covenant and Linden, one that could explain the coincidence of language.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

@ wayfriend: one reason I'm waiting for TLD to come out is so they add the good-post function to THIS forum. That's reason #omega for me to be waiting for it, but it's still there.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Donaldson had said about language:

Well, I suppose you could say that I didn't bring up the "language" issue (e.g. between Covenant and Mhoram) because I didn't think of it. <grin> Or you could say that the fact that our characters in our dreams speak our language is so axiomatic that *Covenant* didn't think of it. But the fact is that I considered the whole how-come-you-and-I-and-everyone-in-the-whole-world-can-understand-each-other issue to be an appalling can of worms, and I did *not* want to open it. I foresaw the possibility that I might undermine the entire narrative foundation of the story. In sf, a writer is compelled by the exigencies of the format to confront problems like language barriers. But the underlying assumptions of fantasy are not so rational: they are, in a sense, a-rational (rather than non-rational or irrational), arising as they do from that aspect of the human mind which creates dreams. I was--and am--acutely reluctant to impose the wrong kind of rationality on the story I'm trying to tell in the "Chronicles."

(01/19/2005)

From this we can see that the question your asking here isn't actually something that is relevant to the Chronicles. In fantasy, the answer is "it's magic" -- and you don't worry about it.

And something else I find.

But here's my real answer: since everything about the Land has *some* kind of organic relationship with Covenant's mind, and with Linden's--and since neither Covenant nor Linden has spent thousands of years progressing in his/her use of language--of COURSE the people of the Land still talk the way they did millennia ago.

Whether or not you accept the proposition that the Land is an extension of Covenant's and Linden's minds is beside the point. No one can deny that Covenant and Linden have *some* kind of fundamental and essential relevance to the "reality" of the Land. Parts of the story can be told from "Land-based" perspectives--e.g. from Mhoram's--only because the relationship between those perspectives and Covenant's/Linden's has already been established.

(08/22/2007)

This may be more of an answer that your looking for. Even if you believe the Land is real, there's some weird connection to Covenant and Linden, one that could explain the coincidence of language.

Define "organic relationship."

[Zarathustra]

I don't think SRD has defined rules. I think he makes this stuff up (i.e. his GI answers) as the goes. The real answer is that he not Tolkien. He is not a philologist who designs an entire world around his made up languages. His motivation is different: characters. Making up unique languages for each race does not serve that purpose. He has said many times that he doesn't create things that don't serve the story. Call it efficiency. Or call it laziness (unfair, imo). Whatever. The real answer is that he doesn't want to "open that can of worms," as he says. I don't really think the can of worms is the ontological questions. It wouldn't damage the dream hypothesis one bit if the Land people spoke a different language, no more than for the Seven Words to be a different language. If this is all TC's dream, and TC is a writer, why couldn't he make up languages in his dreams just like Tolkien? Nothing stopping him whatsoever.

No, the real reason, I believe, is that Donaldson simply didn't want to take the time to do it. It's a legitimate attitude for a writer to take, but I believe it's disingenuous to pretend that it would make the fantasy world too rational to give it its own language. If names like Atiaran or Mhoram don't endanger the arationality of fantasy (if that distinction even makes sense), then an entire foreign language wouldn't either.

And no where else do we see the arbitrary nature of this reasoning than with examples like this:

Parts of the story can be told from "Land-based" perspectives--e.g. from Mhoram's--only because the relationship between those perspectives and Covenant's/Linden's has already been established.

How has Mhoram's relationship with Covenant been established? Seriously. They shared a quest together. They had a couple conversations. What's their relationship? They don't have one. They have an acquaintance. What Donaldson really means here is that Mhoram is a main character whom he likes. And there's no one else to use for the POV of the siege of Revelstone. So Donaldson imagines that there is some kind of organic relationship between Mhoram and Covenant. But you might as well say that TC's relationship with every character with whom he has shared a scene has been established. Does this mean it would make sense to have entire chapters devoted to any character Covenant happens to meet? Not unless they're in charge of the Warward or the Siege. Characters only get chapters when they make convenient POV chapters for main plot movements. It has nothing to do with the relationship with Covenant.

I believe it's more important for him to tell the story he wants to tell than to make this story either believable or explicable. Trying to make it so after the fact just undermines it, in my opinion, especially with the emphasis on "arationality." I think it's a cop out. It's actually a contradiction, but he's trying to pretend both a) that it's not a contradiction and b) it's okay that it's a contradiction. I don't think you can make sense of these things, even with the questionable term "organic relationship." His answer would be better if he just said, "Because that's the way I wanted it."

[SkurjMaster]

I have always been satisfied to believe that the Land and its Earth are real. I think even SRD has made too much of this issue. The fact that Linden experiences the Land in the second Chronicles with TC, without sharing his specific life experiences in the 'real' world, ends the argument for me. The claim that the Land is created by SRD, with its characters, to allow TC to deal with his inner issues and turmoil, does not make it a dream.

TC and Linden Avery 'travel' to THE LAND precisely because of who they are the the abilities they represent. Even if you regard their presences in the Land as astral projections it still works. Would a heroine addict 'travel' to the Land? Well, they might loathe themselves and seek to destroy themselves due to their inner Despiser, but the apparatuses (spelling?) that a drug addict might require to deal with their issues may not be present in the literary and thematic surroundings.

There has to be a very bad joke in there somewhere.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Wasn't the term "translated" used somewhere regarding how they got to the Land?
The "translation" covered the whole language thing, imo.

I find it funny that the concept of a character going from one reality to another is understandable but communicating easily with the natives there is a problem.
Magic ring? OK.
Dirt that heals? No problem.
Immortal warriors that can communicate telepathically? Awesome!
The name Kevin being used in both realities? Hang on, that's just silly!