Believing Jeremiah?

[TheFallen]

How much credence do you give any of the information that Jeremiah offers up in FR?

Is it - much like most of everything that Roger disguised as TC says in FR - all a crock, simply designed to confuse Linden and mislead her into helping Roger with his malevolent goals? That'd make sense... Jeremiah's possessed by a croyel and is still locked entirely inside his own mind, despite outward appearances, so the words aren't his.

Or is some of it true? Did Jeremiah *really* frequently travel to the Land previously? Did he meet the Vizard? Did he have conversations about building traps?

Evicence is contradictory. Jeremiah did build models of Mount Thunder and Revelstone in Linden's house - how would he have known about these locations? The croyel would presumably have had access to Jeremiah's memories via its possession of him, so would have been able to trot these out as it saw fit. But then again, the sole intent of Roger and Croyelmiah is to guilt trip Linden into going along unwittingly with their plans, so surely anything said by either would have been "spun" or coloured to fit in with their scheme and as such cannot be considered as gospel truth.

Can we really give any credibility to any of it?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The fact that Jeremiah built Mount Thunder and Revelstone does indeed prove that he has visited the Land before. He has probably also, indeed, been a victim of Lord Foul since the night he stuck his hand in the fire in the woods behind Haven Farm, 10 years ago. His visitations might not have been happening that whole time, but they have been happening long enough.

The croyel speaks the truth based on memories it is pulling from Jeremiah's mind, but twisting them a little to increase Linden's despair.

Unanswered question: how was Roger translating himself to the Land? Apparently he has visited before, as well, but how? He had to have help to get there from the Land and must have performed some sort of ritual here, possibly during his time as a butcher (access to quantities of blood). These details might be unimportant...but they might not.

"Croyelmiah". *laugh*

[TheFallen]

Unanswered question: how was Roger translating himself to the Land? Apparently he has visited before, as well, but how? He had to have help to get there from the Land and must have performed some sort of ritual here, possibly during his time as a butcher (access to quantities of blood). These details might be unimportant...but they might not.

That's a damn good question - because Roger when masquerading as TC knows a huge amount about the Land, its entire history, the Arch of Time etc etc. Okay that definitely helps with his credibility as far as Linden (and we, the readers) are initially concerned - Roger largely demonstrates the depth of knowledge that TC himself would know. But it would be unlike SRD to leave how Roger came by this level of information unrationalised - you wouldn't think that it'd just remain an unexplained narrative device, solely geared to making Roger look convincing as TC.

One for TLD, perhaps?

"Croyelmiah". *laugh*

I shamelessly stole this from another post by someone else - can't remember who, but I loved the shorthand

[Vraith]

It's a good question that came up elsewhere...without any certain answer.
There does seem to be good evidence that Jeremiah visited.
OTOH, I can't think of a good reason the Croyemiah would tell the whole, unvarnished, un-spun truth. At the least, if I were a Croyemiah, I'd lie by omission...only tell Linden the things that would gain her help.

I don't think Roger has been here, physically...but there has definitely been some sort of "psychic" contact: otherwise, way back when we met him in real world, he couldn't have said/known "I'll have to take her place." [or whatever it was precisely he said].

And I THINK I invented Croyemiah I was inspired by the "Lost" thread...peeps calling "Fake Locke" Flocke and such.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Now that you mention it, Roger did say something about "taking her place" (referring to his mother). I suspect that is something that he did not want to do.

If Roger thinks that Foul will let him be anything other than a servant, then he isn't just a fool--he's an idiot.

[TheFallen]

I don't think Roger has been here, physically...but there has definitely been some sort of "psychic" contact: otherwise, way back when we met him in real world, he couldn't have said/known "I'll have to take her place." [or whatever it was precisely he said].

That may well be it - plus Roger is of course in major league cahoots with Kastenessen, who, as had slipped my mind, has given him his Elohim/skurj hybrid right hand. It would therefore seem sensible to assume that such an obviously close and mystical interaction between the two of them might also have led to the transfer of large amounts of knowledge as well as power.

[ninjaboy]

I'm not convinced that Roger had been to the Land before, though I wouldn't be too surprised either.
I am more interested in knowing where he got the information about what he'd require to be summoned there in the first place..
BUT Roger is certainly one of the Render's allies, even if Kastenessen is not. Fangthane has convinced Roger that he can 'make him a God' if he can destroy the AoT. And I suspect the Grey Slayer had devised the plan where Roger and Croyemiah sought the Blood of the Earth.
Essentially I believe Roger gained his knowledge of the Land from Kastenessen, the Despiser and Croyemiah, and has been guided to some degree about what to say by those powers..

[Thorhammerhand]

I reckon he (Roger) was also at the community of retribution and the 'demonic' frenzy passed to him including council from all the malicious powers that there are out in the Land, probably in much the same way as Jeremiah described it.

IMHO, both R and J were ensnared and manipulated to bring LA back to the land, J suffered more because he was younger and more venerable, also probably in contact with the community longer than R.