Apropos of nothing... (OOC discussion thread about the game)

[Goatkiller666]

I was talking to Fist about the unacceptible frequency of updates in several of the deity games around here. (He said it was unacceptible, not me. I told him that Xar and Syl have more important stuff to be doing, and we should support them through these real-world busy periods. But he was very emphatic about how he feels wronged.)

Anyway, as a joke, I mentioned that perhaps I could run one as well. You know, in addition to all the other stuff I got going. And while I was joking, I started pondering the specifics of such a game. Here's what I came up with:

Let's take Dante's original view of Hell as a seven layered pit, with each ring being a different form of suffering. Then throw some of Neil Gaiman's specifics (I really love the imagery of the forest of suicides). Incoming souls go to different places, based on why they are damned... suicides to the forest where they become trees, murderers go to another part to suffer some other torture, child rapists go elsewhere for other suffering, etc. So, let's assume that those various locations are mostly known. And the seven rings are well documented. A map could be created for all this.

Then, let's assume each player is some named demon, a Prince of Hell. You each have domains, though maybe with a more evil bent to them than some of the stuff in Pantheon. (And remember, according to Dante, Lucifer was not the ruler of Hell, he was just the most famous inmate. He had his own special torture, way down in the bottom level.) You each start out as just you... physically there (as if you were manifested deities), and you can gather lesser demons to your ranks, and grab some of Hell's geography. If you get the part with the suicides, then all those suicide souls are yours (unless someone else takes that land away from you, later). And new souls would come under your control as well. But depending on what happens up above, that number might be bigger or smaller each round.

I'd come up with the distinction that the souls (what determines your DRP) are different than the demons (those whom you empower to go do stuff). That would be a different twist than Pantheon or Vanir. It's unclear to me if souls could be consumed for power, or if you'd have to set up a power-harvesting process to leach energy from them. I lean towards the whole "souls are eternal" angle, so far. If so, and you have to leach the power out of the souls... then your "soul squeezing" equipment is another area of risk for you... something to be defended.

I'm not excited by the idea that I'd have to generate some number of lesser demons, of various power levels, so that you can go recruit them... that's a lot of accounting. It'd be nice if I could abstract that somehow to avoid all the tedium. Plus, each of you would be physically present in the world, so the possibility of an assassination (or of your characters bodily going into combat and kicking a lot of ass... you are the Princes of Hell, after all) exists... yet another thing to account for.

I'd thought that, while you're mostly concerned with events in Hell, there's some amount of benefit to influencing events in the world. Say you have the forest of suicides, if you can coopt the record company exec who manages The Cure... talk those guys into going back on tour... suicides go up, and your forest grows relatively bigger than anybody else's. Likewise, you can encourage priests to hang out at the prisons... if all the murderers there find God and repent... perhaps their souls won't come to Hell at all... thus depriving your foes of that growth. I had hoped to keep the interaction with the above to a very abstract level. Some would just be random events (instead of Xar's blood plagues... you get a plague of faith healers...), but maybe there would be random contacts with people up top, whom you could negotiate with to act on your behalf. And, of course, you can trade one contact to another demon for another contact, if that ends up being better for both of you.

I still need to sort out some stuff. Like secondary domains... some of the demons lords I've heard of had quite lengthy titles (e.g. - "Lord of Flies, Master of Lies, Great Corruptor, Molestor of Livestock") so it seems that multiple domains is called for. Since you're all permanently manifested, there's no need to deal with psychic communication. Plus, there's no need for prophets... you can deliver your own messages. Plus, of course, I have to come up with some kind of seven-layer map of the place.

And yeah, I know I totally don't have any time to run this, on top of all the other stuff I have going. Don't bother me with details, yet. Details come later. I might just need to give up TV. I'm thinking that Syl totally had the right idea... process turns monthly. I'd have to adjust that around any major homework assignments, of course. But what kind of interest would people have in something like this? Based on that, I'll decide if it's something I want to invest the effort into.

Either that, or the best April Fool's joke ever involves waiting until April 4th, so nobody suspects anything.

[[Syl]]

Sorry. Too busy to sleep regularly, much less run a game. I might have time in the summer and afterward (will have completed my degree at the end of the summer), but then I might also be busy with a jobby-job and studying for the LSATs.

I'd be interested in an inferno-esque game as long as I can keep my submissions simple. Purgatory was fun, but we never made it past the first level.

[Fist and Faith]

Where's the registration thread? I have the revelation and first two turns ready to go.

Sorry. Too busy to sleep regularly, much less run a game.

Ignore him. I always do.

I'd be interested in an inferno-esque game as long as I can keep my submissions simple. Purgatory was fun, but we never made it past the first level.

There were levels??

[Menolly]

^ what Fist said ^

There were levels?

...I miss Niggle.

[Seven Words]

I'm game.

[caamora]

Heh, yeah, I didn't realize there were levels in Purgatory either.

I'm in.

I have a suggestion about lesser demons. Perhaps the lesser demons could be the equivalent to prophets - *we* would make the lessor demons thus, relieving you of any extra accounting.

Just a thought.

[Fist and Faith]

Yeah, great idea, caam.

OK, here's some questions:

1) I've never read Dante, so I don't know how it's set up. One, and only one, type of soul inhabits each level of Hell? Is it even possible for a soul to exist on any other level?

2) Do we simply declare which type of soul will empower us? And if more than one of us wants the same type, do we each get a percentage?

3) Is it possible to steal souls from another Prince of Hell? It would seem difficult, if not impossible. Even if they DO worship us, that's not how we get our power, so convincing them to change who they worship won't do it. We can't change them from someone who committed suicide to someone who was a rapist. If a soul is indestructible, we can't just destroy another's power base.

[Goatkiller666]

Okay, so... I just spent a little while going through the wikipedia article (who needs Cliff Notes?) on the Inferno, just to get an idea of what Dante had the layout like. I'm not committing to being exactly like what he had, I never really intended to exactly clone Dante's work, but I thought it would make a good template to start on. One cannot help but mention a lot of Christian philosophy, including a certain disapproval for non-Christians, in the following. Apologies for anyone who feels slighted by this; I'm just paraphrasing Dante's words, not espousing them.

So... it's a pit. Where Satan fell to earth, making a giant hole in the ground. We'll assume it's a crater, really, only VERY VERY big. Supposedly, it's under Jerusalem, though I'm thinking something more on the order of Hudson Bay or the Indian Ocean. BIG, you know? On the other hand, maybe it's a tube... with each level being maybe the same width, and the same total amount of acreage. And anyway, there's nothing that says we need to follow strict Cartesian cylinders here.

He has 9 layers of Hell proper, plus a "Vestibule" just outside of it.

Layer 0 Vestibule - Here reside the uncommitted. Those who could have accepted God (or really, Jesus) but didn't. Also here were the angels who didn't choose sides in the War.

The River Acheron separates this level from the rest. Souls must cross the river via Charon, the boatman.

Layer 1 Limbo - Here reside the the unbaptized (who could never have accepted God (or really, Jesus), as well as the "virtuous pagans" (those who died before Jesus could die for their sins, and I assume those who were born after that but in places where they had no access to Christ's words). This is basically a decent place to live, except for the fact that God is not present in Limbo (or any other part of Hell) so it must suck to be these guys. But, there's no torture or anything going on. They hang out and talk philosophy, and are more or less ruled by their reason. (An implication there being that those who live only by reason are denied the ecstasy of faith, which is so subtle a form of torture that they don't even realize how bad they have it.)

Minos the snake judges people as they leave Limbo for the lower levels, announcing which level they should go to.

Level 2 Lust - this is a great wasteland, filled with a huge storm and heavy winds. The souls of the lustful are blown around the place for all eternity, to represent how their sinful lust lead them here and there without any sense.

Level 3 Gluttony (and other forms of addiction) - everyone is just kind of lying around on the ground here, covered in "vile slush" kicked up from the rainstorm. It sounds like they're all blinded by it, and just rolling around suffering from the stuff, unable to notice all the other people in the same situation.

Level 4 Greed - Those who hoarded their wealth are set against those who squandered their wealth. They seem to be jousting with giant bags of money. (There's probably more to this part...)

The River Styx runs here.

Level 5 Anger - the wrathful fight with each other on the surface of the River Styx. Those who've lost, or given up, sink to the bottom.

The Marshes of the River Styx are here.
This is the beginning of the City of Dis. Fallen angels guard the gates of the City of Dis. Also among the guardians are the Medusa and the Furies. (Even the fallen angels seem to be acting on God's behalf, instead of being punished for their rebellion.)

Layer 6 Heretics - These are trapped inside flaming tombs.

The Minotaur guards further passage. (This implies a single entrance, not just a border between two areas.)
Layer 7 Violence - Broken into three rings

• Outer Ring - Violence against people and property - These souls are immersed in the river Phlegethon, which is boiling blood and fire. The degree of violence in life determines the depth a person is immersed. Centaurs guard the shores of the river, and shoot arrows at those who try to escape.
  Middle Ring - Violence against self (suicide) - suicides are turned into trees and pushes, and attacked by Harpies. Also in this area are the proflgates (those who destroyed the sources of their livlihoods... how is this different from those who squandered their wealth?), who are made to run through the trees and bushes, scratching themselves on the harsh plants, and chased by ferocious dogs.
  Inner Ring - violence against God or nature - This is a great desert of flaming sand, with fiery rain falling from the sky. Blasphemers are made to lie on the sand, while usurers are made to sit on the sand. Sodomites get to wander around the place.

There's a GREAT CLIFF here. The manticore Geryon can shuttle people down.

Layer 8 Fraud (called Malebolge, the "Evil Pockets") Consists of ten Bolge (pits in the ground) with bridges and walkways going over / around them.

• Bolge 1 Panderers and seducers - Panderers are set to marching one direction (probably in a circle) by demons who whip them to keep them going. Seducers are set to marching the other direction by other demons who whip them to keep them going.
  Bolge 2 Flatterers - They're just steeped in human excrement.
  Bolge 3 Simony - stuck head-first into some rock holes, while the soles of their feet are burned. (This just seems to happen... I don't think demons are involved in doing the burning part.)
  Bolge 4 Sorcerers, astrologers, false prophets - Their heads are twisted backwards, so they have to walk backwards all the time.
  Bolge 5 Corrupt politicians - They're immersed in a lake of boiling pitch. There are Malebranche demons keeping them pushed under.
  Bolge 6 Hypocrites - They walk around with some gilded lead capes. That's it. (It's an allegory for their golden lies covering some heavy crap that eventually prevents them from leading virtuous lives.)
  Bolge 7 Thieves - Chased by snakes and lizards. Whenever one gets a bite of them, they lose part of themselves, to be replaced by something else... animal parts, demon parts, etc. They have themselves stolen from them, slowly. The Centaur Cacus is here, with a dragon on his shoulders and a snake on his back. He's involved with meting out punishment, somehow.
  Bolge 8 fraudulent advisers and evil councillors - Simply concealed within individual flames.
  Bolge 9 sowers of discord - There are another group of demons, with swords. They hack these guys apart, over and over. The souls seem to heal up from the damage, briefly.
  Bolge 10 falsifiers (alchemists, counterfeiters, perjurers and impersonators) - They get horrible diseases.

There are some giants who stand on the edge of this level. They're so large, their torsos can be seen from the 8th layer.
Layer 9 Treachery - Has four rounds, these are named.

• First Round - Caina - traitors to their kin, named after Caine. These souls are immersed in ice up to their faces.
  Second Round - Antenora - traitors to politics (to the party, or their nation, etc.) We assume some kind of buried-in-ice motif, but wikipedia doesn't specify.
  Third Round - Ptolomaea - Traiters to their guests. These are lying supine, then the ice rises up to cover all but their faces.
  Fourth Round - Judecca - traitors to God, named after Judas. These are entirely immersed in the ice, and contorted into strange and painful positions. Satan is here, as well, only buried to his waist. He has three faces, two of which are actually chewing on the souls of Brutus (who killed Julius Caesar, who was God's chosen to rule the world) and Judas (who betrayed Jesus).

Also somewhere down here is an exit that takes one through the center of the earth to somewhere in the south pacific, where is the mountain of Purgatory.

[Avatar]

Hmm....I might be interested.

--A

[Goatkiller666]

Anyway, in spite of all that, here's what I was thinking:

Somehow, I'd have a map of the place. Newly arriving souls are sent to whichever layer is appropriate, and then put into whatever their flavor of torture is, probably by the demons who are at those levels. Some of Dante's stuff had whole layers without demons (or devils... both words were used, though they didn't say what the difference was) inflicting the tortures. Limbo didn't even HAVE tortures. For game reasons, I'd go so far as to say that every level (or even each sub-level, for the rings, bolges, and rounds) have their own flavor of demon, to dispense their own kind of torture. Maybe wind-demons up on the Lust level, and freezing rain demons on the Gluttony level? We'll sort that out. But there's SOME kind of demonic population everywhere. I'll also assume that these demons are, at first, pretty generic guys. They can torture souls, but not much else. With power, you can upgrade them however you want. (We'll make these the equivalent of the Pantheon races?)

I guess that also means that your characters are demons of these various races. Elite members of your races, of course. Seems reasonable to assume you'd rise to power within your own area / race, but nothing says that needs to happen.

However, the souls must migrate down to the right level, and then somehow get put INTO their torture situation. Which presumes that movement of souls is possible, and that there's demons on all the destinations to get things set up.

So, once I get the map worked out, each of you will have territories (maybe with cities of demons, maybe with fields of souls... not sure yet) within or across the various layers. That territory really determines a lot. What demons you can access easily, which kinds of souls come to you. We can assume that you can draw power from whatever souls are in your control, and if that's 30% lustful souls and 70% gluttonous souls, there you go. It's all power. Your domain (fire, war, whatever) determines how you can use your power... the type of sinner you get the power from probably doesn't matter as much.

You can steal power from another Prince by stealing control of territory. Someone has a big chunk of the forest of suicides, and you can invade it, then you get those souls for yourself. The souls are just there, sort of like prisoners you have to guard, only you have to also be squeezing power out of them. I'm mostly leaning towards the idea of souls being actually immortal and indestructible. However, part of me suspects that someone coming up with some kind of endgame move that involves detonating a soul into a massive bomb... that could be cool also.

Of course, there seem to be others in there as well... Centaurs, Harpies, Medusa, the Furies, the Giants, and of course the fallen angels guarding the gates of Dis. (Also, if there's ONE city in Hell, then how can you all have demon cities spread around the map?) I suspect that most of these will really just be different flavors of demon. But a few may become NPCs under my control. And just like the immortality of souls... let's assume that Charon or the Minotaur are immutable and neutral agents in Hell, not part of all this bickering. But let's acknowledge that, though impossible to change, wouldn't it be just super awesome if somebody managed to do it anyway? (Which is to say that, while I would make it amazingly difficult to do such a thing, were a player to devote enough energy to the feat, along with an interesting enough idea for how it would work, I can easily imagine myself being convinced that it might happen.)

I'm also thinking that instead of concentric rings, where everything south of some line is now the third instead of the second layer... maybe there are passages between the layers. If the Minotaur can single-handedly guard the entrance to a place, there must be a single entrance, right? That starts to give strategic value to those entrances... new souls will arrive through those doors, and the Prince who controls THAT section of territory would have an advantage over the guy who has the HUGE section far from the door.

So... the part of me that really geeks out over cool and complex puzzles is loving the idea of playing in this kind of world with 24 different zones, each with their own physics and basic nature. Maybe the map is concentric circles, maybe it's a long tube with evenly sized sections. And maybe it's really 10 different maps, with connection points linking them. That, of course, sounds uglier from a GM point of view (and from a map-drawing point of view) but my kind of player would love playing in that sandbox. For the rest of you, would that make it more interesting, or just more complicated and difficult to get into?

And then we get to deal with "the world above". I had thought that I would randomly create various individual living people who, for whatever reason, made contact with each of you. You could choose to treat with them, perhaps making bargains with them. You'd have to spend some of your power to do so, and then you'd get to give them instructions. *I* would then tell you how well (or if at all) they managed to carry those orders out. Maybe there would be an influence on which kind of souls entered Hell, or an increase or decrease in general. I didn't really want to get into really detailed plans like having a mortal agent in the world above who goes around targeting nuns or something. Also realize that while God isn't present in Hell, He does have agents there, and He certainly is both present and active in the world. So... yeah.

Yet another idea (I'm not married to it, but I'd like opinions) is the idea that, according to Dante... when Jesus died and went to Hell, he wreaked havoc on the place. Even took up some of the more virtuous souls from Limbo back to Heaven with him, when he left. (Grammar check... I know that the pronoun for God is always capitalized. Is that true for Jesus' pronoun as well?) So I'd been thinking about why, all of a sudden, things in Hell were shifting to a new order... and it seems like the recent departure of Jesus from the Pit has stirred things up a lot. Perhaps his soul was siphoned of energy the way all the others are. But his soul is, of course, much more potent than theirs, and so some few of the demons all of a sudden became super-charged: thus the rise of the Demon Princes. Which also segues into a nice turn period of 1yr, or maybe 5yrs or 10yrs. Even at a decade per turn, that's still 200 turns before we get to the current age. I haven't seen a turn-based game get much past 20 turns, though I guess if you add all three reboots of Pantheon together, you're way past that.

So anyway... those are my thoughts, at 1:48am on a school night. I gotta get up in three hours for work. Yay for being stupid. I hope those answered your questions (and probably created new ones). Please share opinions on all this. Nothing is set in stone yet, so if there's something that would convince someone not to play, it's certainly changeable at this stage.

[Taduz Illyannovich]

Passage to Purgatory was through climbing on Satan through the bottom of Hell. Dante and Virgil used his fur as handholds, and climbed down, and upon reaching the bottom (of the pit, not of Satan), were in Purgatory, if I recall correctly.

[I'm Murrin]

You find some fascinating stuff when searching on google for maps of the place.

[sgt.null]

will there be rhyming demons?

[Fist and Faith]

[Kalindriel Ec'urb]

My my. Someone's a bit touchy.

[sgt.null]

demons should rhyme
all of the time
and fool can see
is plain to me.

[Goatkiller666]

Have faith that whatever the demons say, it all rhymes in the original Klingon. It's just that in the English translation, the rhyme scheme doesn't carry through very well.

[sgt.null]

maybe you could work in the Heroes in Hell concept?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroes_in_Hell

[Goatkiller666]

Interesting. I even remember seeing those in the bookstore, back in the late 80s. However, I don't think I'm quite up to tracking them all down and reading them as research for running a game. That would be even more work than reading the actual Inferno, instead of the Wikipedia summary of it.

[sgt.null]

the wikipedia entry on the books should be sufficient.