Death, Ascendency, and Godhood

[Onos T'oolan]

I've been spending a lot of time at malazanempire.com lately. I posted this there, after txting thoughts to ali. Heh.

Not sure this is going anywhere, but I was thinking...

Hood Ascended and became a god without dying. Much later, death (via Dragnipur), ended his godhood. Or did he die, then give up his godhood?

Death was the final step in Kellanved and Dancer Ascending and becoming gods. (Or not? I guess the assassination attempts failed. According to Apsalar in HoC.)

Death was the final step in the Ascension of the Bridgeburners, but it didn't make them gods. (Did they later become the Collective God of Death?)

Treach Ascended without dying, but became a god by dying.

In short, we have: death causing (or being a major ingredient in) Ascension and godhood; death causing Ascension, but not godhood; death causing godhood in one already Ascended; and death (maybe) removing godhood.

[I'm Murrin]

I don't think you need to die to Ascend - it seems to happen more often to living mortals. Death often accompanies the transition to godhood, though.

I don't think Kellanved or Dancer ever died, from what we saw in Night of Knives. I believe Laseen and the two of them all made the lie as real as possible, for their own reasons - Laseen to secure her power, them to claim Shadow without being recognised until they were ready.

I think the possession and/or exposure to power, and the influence of being notorious among many people, is the main factor to Ascension. Godhood is not as distinct from it as you might think, and it could be a simple case of their being an opening for a god which suits the nature of how an Ascendant is perceived, and a death - or a perceived death - is what allows the change in followers' minds to occur, and for them to appreciate the person as a god.

[Onos T'oolan]

No, indeed, you don't need to die to Ascend. Treach, Osserc, and Rake were Ascendants without having died. Apparently becoming Soletaken does the trick. At least in some cases. Was Buke Ascended? I guess he ascended; there was an elevation. Human who can turn into bird is greater than human who cannot turn into a bird. But did he Ascend?

I'm just saying death can be a powerful thing. It was a key ingredient in the Ascension of the Bridgeburners. And would Treach have gone from being an Ascendant to a god if he had not died? Osserc did it. Kellanved and Dancer Ascended and became gods without dying. But Treach did die before becoming a god, so, in his case, it may have played a role.

[Mr. Broken]

I tend to agree with Murrin ,ascencion IMO occurs as a result of that persons actions, deeds,personal commitments, perhaps even vows, and or promises they have made.
Godhood occurs when that person aquires a following that chooses to invest faith. maybe.

[Onos T'oolan]

OK, more thoughts or bits of information.

There's Dassem Ultor. First Sword of the Malazan Empire. Knight of High House Death. But not an Ascendant. BUT, he gained worshipers, and became a god - Dessembrae, Lord of Tears. NOW he's an Ascendant.


Again, Iskaral Pust to Icarium and Mappo:

'Look at you two. Both ancient wanderers of this mortal earth. Why have you not ascended like the rest of them? I'll tell you. Longevity does not automatically bestow wisdom. On no, not at all'

Icarium's actions have had extraordinary consequences in the world. He wiped out entire cities. He struck the final blow to shatter a warren. He seems to have created new warrens. He IS a portal to Chaos. Hell, a continent recognized him when he stepped onto it!

Still, he never managed to Ascend in all that time. Never got to drink T'iam's blood. Never became Soletaken in any other way. Never had a spell cast for him, as Kellanved cast one for himself and Dancer. Never became worshiped.

[I'm Murrin]

Dassem was Ascended. I don't know why you think he wasn't - he was Ascendant ever since the Logros made him First Sword.

[Onos T'oolan]

The reason I think he wasn't is because nobody ever says he was, and because he's not listed as an Ascendant on any of the lists of Ascendants.

But I can understand if that view would need to be revised because of the conversation we see between Onos T'oolan and Logros. I'll have to read that again. Can't right now, though. Gotta go do some chores.


Edit: Did Trull Ascend when he became the Knight of Shadow?

[lucimay]

wait i thought he was ascended ever since the battle in which he was apparently mortally wounded (you know when temper was there with him fighting at his side) and disappeared or went into hiding and became Traveller. i thought he was ascended all that whole time he was being Traveller. the question i had was DID he die that day and ascend or not die and ascend?

[Onos T'oolan]

Yes, I think you're right. But I think he Ascended at that point. That's when he supposedly died, and gained worshipers. That's when he became Dessembrae, Lord of Tragedy.