The New Yorker takes a look at Martin's Fans
Moderator: I'm Murrin
hey thanks for posting that! enjoyed reading it.
yeah i've always had a problem with people who have an overwheening sense of entitlement.
they've no clue what hard work writing actually is sometimes, even if you love it. that little passage in the article where he talks about that tyrion chapter and ripping it out and putting it back in and ripping it out again...thats what you go through when you're trying to write. and there is a HUGE amount of pressure on him to give us his best work and live up to the first four (well, five now) books.
anyway, he'll finish it. i'm confident and i'll wait for it. it'll be worth it i'm sure.
yeah i've always had a problem with people who have an overwheening sense of entitlement.
they've no clue what hard work writing actually is sometimes, even if you love it. that little passage in the article where he talks about that tyrion chapter and ripping it out and putting it back in and ripping it out again...thats what you go through when you're trying to write. and there is a HUGE amount of pressure on him to give us his best work and live up to the first four (well, five now) books.
anyway, he'll finish it. i'm confident and i'll wait for it. it'll be worth it i'm sure.
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
-
ussusimiel
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5346
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:34 am
- Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland
-
aliantha
- blueberries on steroids
- Posts: 17865
- Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 7:50 pm
- Location: NOT opening up a restaurant in Santa Fe
I don't think so, unless you count THOOLAH. 
But SRD's genius was in *not* telling anybody, 20 years ago, that he was planning a third series. GRRM said upfront (more or less) that his ASoIaF would be 7 books. SRD has also been clear all along about his publishing schedule -- one book every three years -- and he's stuck to it. GRRM has repeatedly made promises he hasn't delivered on. And too, SRD only works on one project at a time, while it's clear that GRRM likes to diversify; that makes it easy to accuse him of shirking work on ASoIaF by doing all this other stuff instead.
Maybe GRRM should take a lesson from SRD and just shut up about his future writing plans, period.
But SRD's genius was in *not* telling anybody, 20 years ago, that he was planning a third series. GRRM said upfront (more or less) that his ASoIaF would be 7 books. SRD has also been clear all along about his publishing schedule -- one book every three years -- and he's stuck to it. GRRM has repeatedly made promises he hasn't delivered on. And too, SRD only works on one project at a time, while it's clear that GRRM likes to diversify; that makes it easy to accuse him of shirking work on ASoIaF by doing all this other stuff instead.
Maybe GRRM should take a lesson from SRD and just shut up about his future writing plans, period.
EZ Board Survivor
"Dreaming isn't good for you unless you do the things it tells you to." -- Three Dog Night (via the GI)
https://www.hearth-myth.com/
-
ussusimiel
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5346
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:34 am
- Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland
THOOLAH doesn't count. We are simply those who have eyes to see
My own (admittedly short) experience of this forum has shown me that it is probably the writer and the work that determine what the fans and their forums will be like.
When I saw the pictures from the different Elohimfest I was delighted to see that there was none of the dressing up that goes on at conventions and the like. It told me a lot. And, (correct me if I'm wrong) I get the impression that while SRD is friendly and available to his fans he also maintains his boundaries, as do the fans. This for me is more real and healthy than some of the stuff that GRRM seems to have got involved in.
u.
My own (admittedly short) experience of this forum has shown me that it is probably the writer and the work that determine what the fans and their forums will be like.
When I saw the pictures from the different Elohimfest I was delighted to see that there was none of the dressing up that goes on at conventions and the like. It told me a lot. And, (correct me if I'm wrong) I get the impression that while SRD is friendly and available to his fans he also maintains his boundaries, as do the fans. This for me is more real and healthy than some of the stuff that GRRM seems to have got involved in.
u.
-
aliantha
- blueberries on steroids
- Posts: 17865
- Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 7:50 pm
- Location: NOT opening up a restaurant in Santa Fe
Agreed on all counts, uss.
Re the dressing up, tho: There was an effort at the first E-fest to have everyone bring an ochre robe to wear. I didn't get to attend that one, but the pictures were hilarious -- nobody could agree on what color ochre was.
Re the dressing up, tho: There was an effort at the first E-fest to have everyone bring an ochre robe to wear. I didn't get to attend that one, but the pictures were hilarious -- nobody could agree on what color ochre was.
EZ Board Survivor
"Dreaming isn't good for you unless you do the things it tells you to." -- Three Dog Night (via the GI)
https://www.hearth-myth.com/
-
ussusimiel
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5346
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:34 am
- Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland
aliantha wrote: nobody could agree on what color ochre was.
I'm not surprised. One of those impressionistic things that a writer like SRD can do (like one of his favourites, Conrad). Does make it difficult to get a consistent style and colour though
I'd love to see some of those picture! I've had a quick scan around but I couldn't locate them. Any direction?
Thanks,
u.
-
Vraith
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 10621
- Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
- Location: everywhere, all the time
There have been very serious rifts about the works themselves, of course...how good/bad etc.
But I only remember a couple posters ever hating people/author [one who said LC's were just trash written for the money, another prone to calling peeps "Fanboys" if they disagreed with his/her opinion.]
We seem to save the personal hating for the close and the tank, not the lit. threads. [though even those threads pretty rare and lightweight.]
It kinda made me laugh...the peeps that think GRRM OWES them some kind of word-per-day output...but he did set himself up for it.
But I only remember a couple posters ever hating people/author [one who said LC's were just trash written for the money, another prone to calling peeps "Fanboys" if they disagreed with his/her opinion.]
We seem to save the personal hating for the close and the tank, not the lit. threads. [though even those threads pretty rare and lightweight.]
It kinda made me laugh...the peeps that think GRRM OWES them some kind of word-per-day output...but he did set himself up for it.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
-
aliantha
- blueberries on steroids
- Posts: 17865
- Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 7:50 pm
- Location: NOT opening up a restaurant in Santa Fe
Well, rats. 
I went to the last page of the Group Fests album -- looks like the only picture of the first E-fest that survived was the group picture from the dinner with SRD. Unless the "ochre robes" picture was in a separate thread... Can somebody help me out?
I went to the last page of the Group Fests album -- looks like the only picture of the first E-fest that survived was the group picture from the dinner with SRD. Unless the "ochre robes" picture was in a separate thread... Can somebody help me out?EZ Board Survivor
"Dreaming isn't good for you unless you do the things it tells you to." -- Three Dog Night (via the GI)
https://www.hearth-myth.com/
-
Orlion
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 6666
- Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
- Location: Getting there...
- Been thanked: 1 time
Pretty much. Donaldson is fairly open with his fans, but like you point out... it's different. I could never see myself walking up to SRD in a grocery store and telling him 'good job', even if presented with the opportunity. Hell, this past E-fest my comments to him were with regards to Ford Maddox Ford... and I absolutely LURVED AATE.ussusimiel wrote:
My own (admittedly short) experience of this forum has shown me that it is probably the writer and the work that determine what the fans and their forums will be like.
When I saw the pictures from the different Elohimfest I was delighted to see that there was none of the dressing up that goes on at conventions and the like. It told me a lot. And, (correct me if I'm wrong) I get the impression that while SRD is friendly and available to his fans he also maintains his boundaries, as do the fans. This for me is more real and healthy than some of the stuff that GRRM seems to have got involved in.
u.
Martin, on the other hand... I imagine he has others do his grocery shopping
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
-
danlo
- Lord
- Posts: 20838
- Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:29 pm
- Location: Albuquerque NM
- Been thanked: 1 time
- Contact:
Well, I wanted to dress up as Trell and carry around a huge rock at E-Fest 1 and someone wanted to make a silver leaf outfit ala Lena and we did talk a lot about ochre robes, but we never carried out these plans-we all showed up as our selves...
While I heartily agree that GRRM should not have been so public about his writing schedule I also agree that he got too close to his fans-during certain tours, especially in meet-ups with a core group called the Brotherhood without Banners, there was a heel of a lot of drinking and commingling with fans involved...(just saying)
While I heartily agree that GRRM should not have been so public about his writing schedule I also agree that he got too close to his fans-during certain tours, especially in meet-ups with a core group called the Brotherhood without Banners, there was a heel of a lot of drinking and commingling with fans involved...(just saying)
fall far and well Pilots!
Finally got around to reading this article, and I can't believe the sense of entitlement that those people have!
Seriously... If Martin decides, tomorrow, that he'll never publish another novel, that's his decision to make!
Anyway, the greatest schism I've seen in SRD's fans concerns the Last Chrons... certain people are not enjoying them at all. Personally, I love em
(Though the GAP is still my favorite... Come on, HBO, make a GAP series!)
Seriously... If Martin decides, tomorrow, that he'll never publish another novel, that's his decision to make!
Anyway, the greatest schism I've seen in SRD's fans concerns the Last Chrons... certain people are not enjoying them at all. Personally, I love em
(Though the GAP is still my favorite... Come on, HBO, make a GAP series!)
"You make me think Hell is run like a corporation."
"It's the other way around, but yes."
Obaki, Too Much Information
"It's the other way around, but yes."
Obaki, Too Much Information
you know, i appreciate that everyone has their opinion and that, here, on the watch, we all get to say what our opinions are. that being said, i still find it bizarre that anyone can sit in judgement of a writer and what he does or doesn't tell the fans and what he does or doesn't live up to and even whether he has appropriate boundries or whatnot.
martin should do this, martin should not do that, maybe martin should take a page from SRD's book and only promise what he knows he can deliver...???? really?
SRD and GRRM are two different people living their lives. apples and oranges. different writers plying their craft the best way they know how.
ask yourself how many times you've had to amend things you've said to other people about what you are doing and how long it should take you to do it. how often have you changed your mind about how to go about getting something you are doing done?
what if there was a camera on you 24/7 and we got to look at and comment on how you're living your life and what YOU should being doing with your time? and then post our opinions of you on an internet forum.
how many times would we be able to say OH EPIC FAIL on getting that laundry done! you shouldn't have TOLD us you'd be able to get it done when you KNEW there was a possiblity that the dryer could give out and break down! see how [insert next door neighbor] got HER laundry done! AND she didn't stop to take a piss either nor tell us there were only going to be 3 loads when there was a possiblity of there being 5 loads. she's a MUCH better laudry-doer than you.
edit for one last thing: i'm not a big bible person but the 2 best pieces of advice i DID get from that book...
do unto others as you would have done unto you
and
judge not, lest ye be judged.
seriously people.
/end rant.
martin should do this, martin should not do that, maybe martin should take a page from SRD's book and only promise what he knows he can deliver...???? really?
SRD and GRRM are two different people living their lives. apples and oranges. different writers plying their craft the best way they know how.
ask yourself how many times you've had to amend things you've said to other people about what you are doing and how long it should take you to do it. how often have you changed your mind about how to go about getting something you are doing done?
what if there was a camera on you 24/7 and we got to look at and comment on how you're living your life and what YOU should being doing with your time? and then post our opinions of you on an internet forum.
how many times would we be able to say OH EPIC FAIL on getting that laundry done! you shouldn't have TOLD us you'd be able to get it done when you KNEW there was a possiblity that the dryer could give out and break down! see how [insert next door neighbor] got HER laundry done! AND she didn't stop to take a piss either nor tell us there were only going to be 3 loads when there was a possiblity of there being 5 loads. she's a MUCH better laudry-doer than you.
edit for one last thing: i'm not a big bible person but the 2 best pieces of advice i DID get from that book...
do unto others as you would have done unto you
and
judge not, lest ye be judged.
seriously people.
/end rant.
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
-
aliantha
- blueberries on steroids
- Posts: 17865
- Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 7:50 pm
- Location: NOT opening up a restaurant in Santa Fe
Well, I didn't mean for y'all to take me seriously... 
And nobody needs to start an Internet forum to tell me what a lousy job I do at fill-in-the-blank. I do just fine at that myself....
And nobody needs to start an Internet forum to tell me what a lousy job I do at fill-in-the-blank. I do just fine at that myself....
EZ Board Survivor
"Dreaming isn't good for you unless you do the things it tells you to." -- Three Dog Night (via the GI)
https://www.hearth-myth.com/
that wasn't directed at YOU specifcally...just the general you.aliantha wrote:Well, I didn't mean for y'all to take me seriously...
And nobody needs to start an Internet forum to tell me what a lousy job I do at fill-in-the-blank. I do just fine at that myself....
always drew, always.drew wrote:Don't hold back Luci. Tell us how you really feel
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
-
Vraith
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 10621
- Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm
- Location: everywhere, all the time
Heh...and for my part Luci, when I said he set himself up...
Well, that doesn't mean he DESERVED what happened...just that it was predictable.
Well, that doesn't mean he DESERVED what happened...just that it was predictable.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
-
ussusimiel
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5346
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:34 am
- Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland
Hail Rigel!Rigel wrote:Finally got around to reading this article, and I can't believe the sense of entitlement that those people have!
Seriously... If Martin decides, tomorrow, that he'll never publish another novel, that's his decision to make!
It's good to meet you!
I agree 100% with this. I had a similar (if opposite) experience when I first saw ROTE on a bookstore shelf. I screamed,'Nooooooooooooo!!!! He can't!!!!!!!!!' But, of course, SRD can do what he likes with his fantasy story. Two years of deep breathing and Kevin's Watch helped me calm down enough to finally finish FR only last week.
I'm in the 'not enjoying them at all camp', but my experience on KW has given me a wider perspective than I would have previously had. I see now that if SRD had not written the Final Chrons this forum might not have half the life it currently has and that is not something to be underestimated. SRD is a wise and canny person. I am not saying that he wrote the books because of the depth of love of his fans. But, having always intended to write the books, knowing that they would be well received would probably have added some (however much or little) impetus to starting the FCs.Rigel wrote:Anyway, the greatest schism I've seen in SRD's fans concerns the Last Chrons... certain people are not enjoying them at all. Personally, I love em
I may have to revisit the Gap series. I think I read four of them before I stopped(Though the GAP is still my favorite... Come on, HBO, make a GAP series!)
Hi again lucimay!lucimay wrote:i still find it bizarre that anyone can sit in judgement of a writer and what he does or doesn't tell the fans and what he does or doesn't live up to and even whether he has appropriate boundries or whatnot.
martin should do this, martin should not do that, maybe martin should take a page from SRD's book and only promise what he knows he can deliver...???? really?
And we miscommunicate/disagree again
A few points with regard to the above. Firstly, there is bound to be a certain amount of expectation when a writer is writing a series rather than stand-alone novels. I think that frustration is only human when a story is not finished. Secondly, I have a feeling that the relationship between writer and reader/fan has changed significantly over the last number of years most probably due to marketing pressure from publishers. In this new relationship fans may have developed a unreasonable level 'entitlement'.
Finally, the Internet allows a level of interaction that was previously unimaginable, KW and the GI are examples of this. So, it is much more likely that people are going to publicly say what they think. And, IMO, fans talking among themselves are entitled to say what they like. It the same as any conversation that people have. Addressing criticisms and judgements directly to and at the author is a totally different thing and here I am in complete accord with you. It's presumptous and rude. If you have that sort of a problem with a writer stop buying their books!
u.