Unfettered by the Last Chronicles (continued)

[ussusimiel]

Some of you may already be familiar with the difficulties I had reading ROTE and FR as I laid them out in the FR Forum. I'm onto AATE now and I wanted someplace where I could continue to post on the experience.

I've read the first three of chapters and found the going okay. Covenant is back (which is cool. Though it's weird that the first thing that happens to him is that people start beating him up!) and a number of things have been made clear e.g. the nature of the Worm, the fear of the Elohim and so on. So, some simplification has occurred, which is a relief.

The Ardent has turned up which didn't really surprise me, as Linden handing over all power to the Harrow just seemed too improbable, storywise.

I like the way Covenant has partial access to the whole history of the Land and the Earth. It's exciting everytime he reveals something we haven't heard before.

That's it for now. More as I go.

u.

[Zarathustra]

Can't wait to hear more. In the Reading Along thread, there is a chapter-by-chapter discussion between several of us which you might find interesting as you go. It's not quite dissection level of detail, but similar. It's on page 2 of this forum, I believe.

[High Lord Tolkien]

The beginning of AATE is my favorite in the series. there's more history and insight given there than we've ever seen before.

[ussusimiel]

Can't wait to hear more. In the Reading Along thread, there is a chapter-by-chapter discussion between several of us which you might find interesting as you go. It's not quite dissection level of detail, but similar. It's on page 2 of this forum, I believe.

Thanks, Z. I've found that thread and I'll dip into it as I proceed.

I initially started this thread in the FR forum as a means of expressing my disappointment with the Last Chrons, but since I'm onto the third book now it seems a bit pointless, if not ungracious, to continue in that vein. So, I'll mostly post in the spirit of engagement with the books and their themes and limit my gripes to nit-picking rather than grand swipes (hey, that rhymes!). I will also refrain from any THOOLAH-ing for the same reasons.

I meant to say earlier that I laughed out loud when we got the real Covenant's first 'Hellfire!' on p.36 in my edition. Some things just never change

And a nit to pick: why do the names of the Giants in the Last Chrons bug me so much. I was thinking about it today and I went back to see if the names of the Giants in the 2nd Chrons had the same effect and they don't.

Now a couple of things strike me. In the 2nd Chrons the names of the Giants we spend the most time with: Pitchwife, The First (Gossamer Glowlimn), Mistweave, Grimmand Honninscrave, Cable Seadreamer, are all, in some way, a bit abstract. (It also occurs to me that apart from Grimmand Honninscrave, the rest are usually referred to by one name.)

In the Last Chrons all the Giants seem to have names that are concrete in both their literal and figurative meanings: Rime Coldspray (the Ironhand), Frostheart Grueburn, Stormpast Galesend, Halewhole Bluntfist, Cabledarm. Onyx Stonemage and Latebirth have names that are a bit less concrete but still manage to be harsh in their sounding. Cirrus Kindwind, Scend Wavegift and Moire Squareset have more abstract names but two of those have fallen. (If I was Cirrus Kindwind, I'd be changing my name pronto ) (I don't know if I mentioned them all, but you get my point.)

It probably has something to do with the Giants themselves and how they have changed over the millennia, but the effect in the story is, to my ears, a constant clash and clangor (noise, not Coursers (Din and Clang would feel left out )). It adds an edge to the telling that is at odds with how I usually feel when there are Giants around.

I've finished Chapter 4, 'After Unwisdom', so feel free to comment on anything up to that point.

u.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Could it be because they are simple soldiers living the simple life? (many of us were disappointed with the current crop of giants)

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Could it be because they are simple soldiers living the simple life? (many of us were disappointed with the current crop of giants)

I always assumed this to be the case, judging by the names mostly relating to strength or battle: Cabledarm--described as very strong, probably pointing to huge, veiny arms, Grueburn--'burning/yearning for gore', Halewhole--'wholly robust' or something in those lines, Bluntfist--no explanations needed there.

I was also disappointed in the lack of feature and character development regarding the Giants. They're one of the main reasons why I've been hogging on SRD, after all. Someone ought to remedy this by writing some fanfiction, which is the common way to explore minor characters in just about any fandom. However, to my disheartenment, all I can find is a complete absence of stories, even when it comes to the previous chronicles. I admit that the TCTC following isn't all that humongous, but this still strikes me as peculiar, especially since I participate in fandoms with an active fanbase of 30-50 and still can uncover a plenty of fanfics (of stellarly varying qualities, but regardless).

Nevertheless, I still found the 2-3 most prominently featured Giants more complex and colorful than Liand or the Ramen-whatsists the poor plot has been forced to cart along ever since ROTE.

Now a couple of things strike me. In the 2nd Chrons the names of the Giants we spend the most time with: Pitchwife, The First (Gossamer Glowlimn), Mistweave, Grimmand Honninscrave, Cable Seadreamer, are all, in some way, a bit abstract.

Perhaps this is subjective, but I perceived them quite as literally as the names in the 3rd chrons. For instance:

-Heft Galewrath: a woman described as stocky or heavyset, with a huge stamina to oppose storms and hardship (ie. the way she held the rudder even when Starfare's Gem was about to keel over)

-Gossamer Glowlimn: The first name likely refers to her very, very soft, even insecure core beneath all the hard Swordmain resolve. Upon reading TOT/WGW carefully, one can't miss this sliver of vulnerability, and it appears to be one of the reasons why she's dragging Pitchwife, the spiritual leader of the Search, everywhere. Granted, that's a bit abstract, but anyhow relates to her character. The second name I understood to mean a very pale complexion ('outlined with a glow').

-Cable Seadreamer: slapped into the face with a cable, thus receiving the gift or curse of Earth-Sight ('sea dreamer')

-Grimmand Honninscrave: Grim-Hand Honors-Crave (from the GI), also quite literal/straightforward in my opinion, especially the last name pointing out his unsated ambition

[wayfriend]

I agree that the Giants of the Final Chronicles are less sketched out.

They are also more numerous, and are largely interchangeable.

I suspect that this is because their role in the story is not as large as the roles of the Giants in the second Chronicles. Their purpose seems to be to fill out Linden's Army, and not much else.

But you know what? We have to let Donaldson write a different story, and not knock-offs of the same story. Even though I'm a bit disappointed, I have to remember that.

[Orlion]

But you know what? We have to let Donaldson write a different story, and not knock-offs of the same story. Even though I'm a bit disappointed, I have to remember that.

This is key. The Second Chronicles were not the First and the Last certainly are not the Second or the First. There is a sort of 'whole story' but in all actuality, we got three different sets of novels that exist by themselves in their own right.

As a result, I'm not too upset over the giants. Foamfollower belonged in the First Chronicles, Pitchwife and the First in the Second. This is the Last Chronicles, and thus far I've really enjoyed the story as it has been told and wouldn't want it any other way.

[Ananda]

I'm perfectly happy with the giants in this series as they are. Certainly, they are not fleshed out much, but then I didn't think that the giants from the second series were really developed as true individuals either, though we definitely got to know them a bit better. They were still more a charcter type than whole people. We had the tortured mute, brave in the face of his pain. Theguilt ridden brother bound by duty. The strong yet vulnerable warrior type. And, of course, the should-be-weak-but-has-overcome-his-weakness with the heart of gold type. Having said that, I did like the characters. I just didn't see them as wholey realised people. But, that was okay.

I think the only time I felt they were going to break the mould was just at the end of the second series when the last two had been pushed pretty far and faced having to choose sides against each other. It never came to that, but it would have been very interesting if it had!

Maybe it's just a function of the author'sevolving style that the secondary characters' development has fallen off a bit while he focuses more on other things.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I suspect that this is because their role in the story is not as large as the roles of the Giants in the second Chronicles. Their purpose seems to be to fill out Linden's Army, and not much else.

Certainly, they are not fleshed out much, but then I didn't think that the giants from the second series were really developed as true individuals either, though we definitely got to know them a bit better.

Good points.

Probably my disappointment stems partially from the fact that they're not in such prominent roles as the Search & co. Yet as I stated in another thread here, I do still like them, particularly Grueburn, who hands out most of the rare morsels of humor. I wouldn't spend hours at my Wacom, designing itty bitty details to their armor, if I considered them mere lame cannon fodder (albeit that they do serve as substitute Ranyhyn for Linden and some of her 'army'; there's no shirking around that fact).

[SoulBiter]

I would add that the Giants were chosen for different purposes.

In the second Chronicles the 'Earthsight" was guiding the mission. The giants were hand picked (By the Giantclave) to go on this quest to find and correct if possble the wound that plagued the Earth. These were the cream of the crop as giants go.

The last Chronicles, these giants were soldiers that were not chosen based on Earthsight or a Giantclave but were thrown together hastily to retreive the mad Giant Longwrath. Thus more soldiers and more interchangeable characters.

[Zarathustra]

We have to let Donaldson write a different story, and not knock-offs of the same story.

This is the Last Chronicles, and thus far I've really enjoyed the story as it has been told and wouldn't want it any other way.

Does the juxtaposition of "we have to let Donaldson write a different story" with "wouldn't want it any other way" strike anyone else as a funny way for two people to support the same point?

I'd LOVE for Donaldson to write a different story ... I'd let him write a different story than the Last Chronicles any time he wants. Different would be awesome!

The Giants have a different role, that is true. And they are more numerous, that is true, too. But neither of these facts necessitate the giants being indistinguishable, unfunny, chatty loadbeasts for the Quest. I understand that Donaldson only has so much time and energy, so I don't blame him for concentrating on the main characters to the detriment of secondary characters. But if he had nothing else planned for the Giants, I would have preferred he just left them out completely. I don't want "something broken" merely because I can't do without it.

We don't have to compare the LC to the other two Chrons to make its problems apparent. It would be sufficient to point out that if the LC had been the only Chrons, it's unlikely that readers would have ever fallen in love with giants. Judged purely on its own merits, the LC doesn't present these characters in a way that would inspire anyone to want to know more about them, or remember them fondly.

[Edit: just wanted to clarify that I wasn't making fun of either WF's or Orlion's points. In isolation, each point was fine. It was purely the juxtaposition (something added by me) that I thought was ironically humorous.]

[Vraith]

It would be sufficient to point out that if the LC had been the only Chrons, it's unlikely that readers would have ever fallen in love with giants. Judged purely on its own merits, the LC doesn't present these characters in a way that would inspire anyone to want to know more about them, or remember them fondly.

I understand this criticism, and think it's reasonable/justifiable...same family as those who dislike that "The Land" isn't here as it was before.
For me, though, and it could be just the way reading the chron's happens for me, I don't feel that way. It's a bit like [my god...do I ever write a post without some analogy in it?] most great paintings contain points/elements that aren't fully, deeply, specifically detailed; they are only suggested. But the suggestion works because we know/contain the depth, the details, the fullness in our minds/experience. When I see the suggestion of the Giants in these works, it is supported/fulfilled by all that I've known/seen/loved of them previously. [like I said, could be completely personal...the suggestion works for me, I can see why it might not work for others]
Also, completely different track, and speculative, I think the giant that really matters to the tale is coming soon.

[Orlion]

[Edit: just wanted to clarify that I wasn't making fun of either WF's or Orlion's points. In isolation, each point was fine. It was purely the juxtaposition (something added by me) that I thought was ironically humorous.]

Understood It seems me that Wayfriend and I have slightly different reasons for liking the Last Chronicles. Whereas Wayfriend may mourn the current state of the Giants, I don't care because I'm so caught up in everything else about the Last Chronicles. Seriously, it would never occur to me as a problem if someone else didn't point it out. Still don't see it as a problem, so my defense against it may be... oddish. Wayfriend's comment actually addresses the problem, while I continue to say, "What problem?"

[ussusimiel]

Just a final couple of points on the Giants and their names. I've had a look at some old threads and the consensus seemed to be that they receive their names later in life when their path and character becomes obvious, or they receive new names after some life-changing event e.g. Longwrath. (Adult naming has a precedent in the Chrons with the Ramen potentially taking a new name at their Maneing (nameing?) e.g. Manethrall Rue.)

Also, pondering the significance of Giants with one name: Pitchwife, Mistweave, Cabledarm, and whether it indicates a more obvious personality. (Giants who wear their heart on their sleeve )

On another topic, my favourite part of the first four chapters was the point when the Wraiths flowed out of Andelain and tended to Covenant. This reminded me of the first Banas Nimoram we experienced and the magical scene as the Wraiths alight one after the other on Covenant's ring. It's a real nostalgia fix for hankerers like me (I think SRD says somewhere in the GI that the Wraiths are his favourite creation in the Chrons. Something pure!)

u.

[Aleksandr]

My speculation on Giant names:

Maybe the first name is given by the parents at birth, and the second is bestowed in adulthood for some significant reason or other. Mistweave therefore doesn't have a second name because he is young and has had no real signifcant event in his life before the Search. Pitchwive tells Linden he has been offered other name, but has turned them all down. And the First may have been named Gossamer by her grieving father, and Glowlimn by Ptchwife at their marriage.

The Giant Ravers also had but one name-- who would want to give them another one?

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Maybe the first name is given by the parents at birth, and the second is bestowed in adulthood for some significant reason or other. Mistweave therefore doesn't have a second name because he is young and has had no real signifcant event in his life before the Search. Pitchwive tells Linden he has been offered other name, but has turned them all down. And the First may have been named Gossamer by her grieving father, and Glowlimn by Ptchwife at their marriage.

Hmm, but being a pitchwife is Pitch's profession. I doubt his parents would've named him thus from the very beginning. I also suspect that his name has, partially, something to do with Brow Gnarlfist's death and its significant consequences. After all, he affixed him to Wavedancer's hull with his wiving. There's furthermore a contradictory statement in Fatal Revenant implying that both names may change at any point in life:

"With clumsiness and inattention, I have shamed the Swordmainnir as well as myself. Henceforth I will name myself Lax Blunderfoot. When our journey has come to an end, for good or ill, I will lay down my sword." -- Latebirth after accusing herself of the death of one of her comrades.

This of course does not mean that some of the Giants couldn't yet bear names granted them by their parents. However, I doubt a loving Giantess mother would call her daughter <i>Frostheart</i>; perchance that's just ol' Grueburn attempting to sound all cool and dangerous.

[danlo]

I agree with Ananda, you guys whine way too much!

[ninjaboy]

I hope you're still enjoying it, U.

While the Giants stand out as not being as memorable as the giants from the previous books, I have to say that the complexity and conflicts of the assembled Ramen and Haruchai was somethong that totally engrossed me throughout..

[ussusimiel]

Apologies for the delay in following up my last post in this thread. A creative project of my own in RL intruded and I had no time or energy to spare for reading etc.

Back in harness now and I've just finished Chapter 5 ("Preparations") and Chapter 6 ("Seek Deep Stone"). What a contrast! I want to start back on a positive note, so I'll say that the start of Chapter 6 is great We're back in the dark tunnels again which is always atmosheric and exciting. I was a bit disappointed about how quick the transition was because I have always enjoyed the way SRD writes his underground scenes and I know I would have enjoyed passing by the different places we've journeyed through in Mount Thunder before.

I loved how SRD uses the images of the bridge crumbling as a metaphor for Covenant's crumbling mind. And I enjoyed being back with Covenant of the Vertigo. I was disorientated a bit though by how he knew exactly where he was even though it was pitch dark. He 'sees' the bridge before he sees it:

... to find himself standing on the wrought span, long and narrow, that bridged the abyss between the imponderable gutrock of Mount Thunder and the portal of the Lost Deep.

I thought I was on the bridge from LFB at first but it soon became clear that we're much deeper than that. The part where people are walking off the bridge is tense and afterwards seems like a bit of a cheat 'cos there seems to be no real danger of the bridge collapsing. From here on Covenant behaves a bit like Linden with all of the endless internal stuff and it doesn't get interesting until Anele does his thing. It's a bit confusing because we're in the Lost Deep but Anele seems to be talking about Earthroot. I'm not gone on the ability of characters in the Last Chrons to magically zap from one location to another, it takes the human effort out of things and makes it all a bit samey.

I didn't like it either when Covenant reminded us that the grass stains on Linden's jeans reminded him of the grass stains on his cloak in Morinmoss. I got it! I got it already!

As for Chapter 5 ("Preparations") I think the less said on my part the better. It seems to be one endless stream of parts from earlier in the series, a listing of every character in view, and a couple of uninformative questions to the Ardent. The sole purpose of one paragraph seems to be to remind us of the names of all the Giants (If I was editing this book I would have had no problem removing this chapter in its entirety *resigned shrug* )

I enjoyed parts of 'Crossing the Hazard', especially the bit where we get an insight into the Viles as Linden works at unravelling the Hazard. I've never really been able to get to grips with the Viles but I understand their motivations a bit better now. (I like Linden a lot more when she is engaged in some intricate surgery-like task ) Another bit of suspense cheating with everybody crossing the bridge. (I wonder was SRD trying to recapture the brilliance of the initial bridge crossing in LFB. That was such a successful piece of writing I wouldn't blame him for harking back to it.) The Ardent's fear is interesting but I find it very difficult to empathise with any of the Insequent. Although we are told that they are ordinary mortals I find it hard to think of them as such and I equate them much more with the Elohim than with people like Liand and Mahrtiir.

Chapter 8 was fine although it all seems a bit empty without the Viles themselves being there. Here some sort of recording device or captured memory sequence would have been nice. We don't really get to linger over the beauty and I found that a bit of a pity.

'Hastening Doom' initially filled me with the dread of more Magic Maths* but it eventually turned out to be mostly straight-forward action-writing. The addition of the skest seemed a bit gratuitous and it complicated the action to the point where I couldn't tell where anyone was (a bit like those action movies that I can't stand, where endless implausible stuff happens and time seems to stretch to allow just about anything to happen). Pity, again I couldn't help contrasting it with the original skest battle in TOT; clear, cinematic, exciting.

u.

[*Magic Maths is my shorthand for when there is a confrontation between several different forms of immeasurable power. The battle of First Woodhelven was the acme of it: Linden + the Staff, Roger + Kastenessen, the Harrow, Esmer. I find this sort of algebra of the incommensurate intensely annoying and useless in terms of plot and character because it can always be manipulated by the insertion of a new factor ]