A Dance with Dragons Discussion

[I'm Murrin]

Why did this topic not exist, when so many of you have read it?


I'm about halfway through the book right now. The book has a very different feel to the last one - where Feast covered familiar places and events, this one branches out into new locations, new situations; and where Feast as a number of distinct storylines for the characters, this one has many storylines crisscrossing and converging, and while they don't all follow together, the foci are certainly Daenerys and Stannis.

I miss Brienne, Jaime, and Sansa, actually. This book is tending to the grim side.

Points of interest for me right now:
- Aegon: There is no way to know unless Varys confesses. At this point, I don't think it matters if the story of the Pisswater boy is true, the book doesn't need to answer the question, too many people believe it and only one could say otherwise.
- Arya: It occurs to me that the only reason Littlefinger created her was so that Sansa would find it very easy to displace whoever laid claim to Winterfell.
- The Red Priests: Interesting direction. Will there be night fires burning in Westeros after the dragons arrive? Will Melisandre's motives for creating a false Azor Ahai be revealed (though perhaps it'll be made out that she was made to think it was true so that she'd do what got her to the Wall)?


As an aside, I think the television series has hit the wrong note in terms of the story's tone. I can't see the show they've started fitting with the direction of the last two books.

[MsMary]

I miss Brienne, Jaime, and Sansa, actually.

Me, too.

- The Red Priests: Interesting direction. Will there be night fires burning in Westeros after the dragons arrive? Will Melisandre's motives for creating a false Azor Ahai be revealed (though perhaps it'll be made out that she was made to think it was true so that she'd do what got her to the Wall)?

What makes you think that Melissandre is creating a false Azor Ahai and knows that she is?

[MsMary]

Oh, and shouldn't this topic have "spoilers" in the title?

[I'm Murrin]

I thought that was implied.

Wyman Manderley: Hero. Doesn't serve his revenge cold, I see.

[lucimay]

Wyman Manderley: Hero. Doesn't serve his revenge cold, I see.

heh.

i am waiting a bit to comment in this discussion murrin cause there are "controversal" happenings which you have not gotten to yet.

i will say that the thought never occurred to me that mel was "creating" a false azor ahai! i just never believed it was really stanis anyways.

how did you get to that understanding? implied where?

[I'm Murrin]

I didn't. I thought that either she was mistaken, was deliberately misleading, or was being deliberately misled by her visions for a purpose. Of course this book rules out one of those by giving her PoV.


Don't worry about spoilers, really. I don't care. I already know what Varys does, for example. I think I actually appreciate the books more when I know what's coming and can see how he gets there.


(Re: Manderley... does his trick get explained later, or does Martin leave you to figure it out? I thought the Rat Cook reference at the end of the feast was a bit heavy handed, but I knew as soon as he served the pie.)

[lucimay]

sort of more or less implies heavily.

thats not what i'm waiting to comment on tho. there's a couple of things that occur toward the end of the book that have caused quite a stir on the facebook discussions so things like manderley and his ruse get a bit overlooked! i really liked that guy tho!

[MsMary]

I didn't. I thought that either she was mistaken, was deliberately misleading, or was being deliberately misled by her visions for a purpose. Of course this book rules out one of those by giving her PoV.

I haven't seen evidence that Melissandre is deliberately creating a false Azor Ahai. But like Lucimay, I never believed it was Stannis and figured she was just mistaken.

sort of more or less implies heavily.

thats not what i'm waiting to comment on tho. there's a couple of things that occur toward the end of the book that have caused quite a stir on the facebook discussions so things like manderley and his ruse get a bit overlooked! i really liked that guy tho!

There are discussions on Facebook? Where?

*

I have to say I went a bit crazy reading the Westeros.org forums after I finished ADWD cause that was the only place it was being extensively discussed when I first finished the book. Stayed up way later than I should have reading.

I have to re-read the whole series thus far with new eyes, so to speak. So much keeps being added into the stew.

[lucimay]

ok i think i added you to the fb song of ice and fire group msmary. but if i didn't manage it, it's an open group, all you have to do is do a search on fb for A Song of Ice and Fire.

[I'm Murrin]

thats not what i'm waiting to comment on tho. there's a couple of things that occur toward the end of the book that have caused quite a stir on the facebook discussions so things like manderley and his ruse get a bit overlooked! i really liked that guy tho!

This thread = not about me.
Me = not kidding when I say I don't care. This is a discussion thread about the book. Discuss the damn book, and don't hold back.

I already know half the endings of the book because I deliberately looked things up.

[lucimay]

thats not what i'm waiting to comment on tho. there's a couple of things that occur toward the end of the book that have caused quite a stir on the facebook discussions so things like manderley and his ruse get a bit overlooked! i really liked that guy tho!

This thread = not about me.
Me = not kidding when I say I don't care. This is a discussion thread about the book. Discuss the damn book, and don't hold back.

I already know half the endings of the book because I deliberately looked things up.

well okAY then!!

on gamespot's lit forum a fella named sleeper6565 posted thusly and it pretty much sums up my feelings about the book so i'll repost here:

Just finished the book, and I did quite enjoy it. Some things did bother me though, mostly as others have stated the lack of a resolution to the battles in the north and I found most of Dany's chapters about ruling Mereen to be boring as hell.

After having a while to digest the story this is what I have taken away from the book:

- Jon getting stabbed to death (apparently) was rather shocking, but I did see some short of mutiny coming. I would assume he will be resurrected somehow (probably through Mel or warging into ghost like others have stated). Getting the impression he is the Azor Ahai reborn Mel keeps spouting off about, and Martin cannot be done with him after so much build up and mystery.

- The whole deal with Ramsay Bolton's letter seems to be a rather big mislead like GRRM tends to throw in. The fact that Theon and the dude from the bank of Bravos are now with Stannis and know of the Karstark's treachery tends to point to Stannis now having the upper hand on the Boltons. Plus the fact that Manderly is secretly working against them and Davos is apparently off getting Rickon, things are looking up for Stannis. While he might have captured Mance, I would say Ramsay is lying about the rest or being decieved by Manderly/Stannis.

- Ramsay Bolton needs to die a horrible death, the sooner the better. Seriously what is wrong with this guy?

- Also in regards to Manderly, the dude is surprisingly bad-ass. The whole deal with cooking up those Freys into his pies had me laughing once I realized what was going on.

- Bran learning to be a super warg from the half man half tree was really interesting, especially with the last remnants of the children of the forest involved. I was sad that this storyline got very little focus in the book and was seemingly dropped by the end.

- Anyone else think Cold Hands is someone we know (Benjen Stark anyone?)

- Cersei seems to finally be getting what she deserves, and I am hoping this "Ser Robert" of hers doesn't succeed in getting her off.

- As far as Cersei's "Ser Robert" is concerned I am guessing that it is the reanimated body of Greggor Clegane, maybe even without a head due to being always in his armor and Dorne recieving his skull earlier in the book. I have to say my interest in this and whatever else Qyburn has been doing in his dungeons has been peaked.

- Victarion was doing what he does best and I enjoyed his chapters, but ultimately nothing really panned out with him.

- Jaime's one chapter was fairly uninteresting, but his inevitable confrontation with zombie Catelyn should be good.

- Most of Tyrion's chapters seemed like filler to me, up until he joined the sellswords. I wish more of his story had dealt with his intereactions with Mormont, and less of being captured repeatedly.

- The introduction of Aegon was interesting, and I to am thinking that he is the "mummer's dragon" Dany was warned of. As to whether or not he is really a Targ remains to be seen, but I am leaning more towards him being genuinely Targaryan myself, just not "of the dragon". A horrible end can only be in store for poor Aegon it seems.

- Quentyn Martel felt like a waste of time to me, and served no purpose other than being a way for Martin to insert some more Dorne into the story. The dude should get some props for being the only one of countless people searching for Dany to actually find her though. I mean seriously (Aegon/Connington, Tyrion, Mormont, Victarion, Maester from the end of feast whos name escapes me) all didn't get anywhere near Dany. Quentyn was ultimately a fool, but him getting scorched by Rhaegal was pretty amusing.

the bolded bit above totally threw me for a loop! i did not catch that at all from the davos stuff!! means i need to go back and read the whole book again.

i totally agree with sleeper on the jon snow and ramsay bolton stuff.
the controversies i was referring to earlier were the "is jon really dead" controversy and the "is ramsay's letter and it's contents real and true" controversy. i'm with sleeper on those issues too.
honestly this sleeper guy summed up exactly how i felt about the entire book.

i do have to re-read tho. i really really read it fast so i know i missed some stuff. and lawsy it never ocurred to me that davos is "off getting rickon"!!?
is he miles off on that or did i miss something?

[I'm Murrin]

One thing I picked up on was the brief reference to a time when Westeros was ruled in all but name by a powerful sorceror known as Bloodraven. For some reason I immediately wondered if this was a Brynden Bloodraven.

[lucimay]

sorry murrin i was editing my post with further questions while you were posting. ^^^^^

[I'm Murrin]

Manderly told Davos that Wex, Theon's mute squire, had followed one of the Stark children from Winterfell (they split into a group of 4 and 2, Wex followed the pair), and indicated on the map a place Davos associated with cannibalism. Manderly's price for joining Stannis was Davos retrieving that Stark child.

- The child must be Rickon, who went with Osha while Bran went with Meera, Jojen and Hodor.
- The place they went must be Skagos, the island full of cannibals and home to unicorns, where the ships get wrecked.

[caamora]

My goodness, I will need to go back and re-read this book.

[lucimay]

Manderly told Davos that Wex, Theon's mute squire, had followed one of the Stark children from Winterfell (they split into a group of 4 and 2, Wex followed the pair), and indicated on the map a place Davos associated with cannibalism. Manderly's price for joining Stannis was Davos retrieving that Stark child.

- The child must be Rickon, who went with Osha while Bran went with Meera, Jojen and Hodor.
- The place they went must be Skagos, the island full of cannibals and home to unicorns, where the ships get wrecked.

yeah i totally missed that (meaning i'm sure i read it and took it in at the time but it didn't stick)!! i mean i do remember manderly telling davos that now that you give me context, but when i read it in sleeper's post i was all like "huh??"!!

[I'm Murrin]

Does anyone who's read this agree with me that even with the series' black humour, the tone of the last couple of books has been pretty far removed from how the TV series has set itself up?

I have a feeling they'll not be able to portray Ramsey and Reek in quite the way Martin has, for example, or risk losing viewers who are expecting something less dark.

(That's my one criticism of the portrayal of Tyrion in the series, too. They've exagerrated his lighter, humorous side, and I can't tell from the season 1 episodes if their treatment will be effective for book 2 onwards.)


On another subject, I wonder what exactly Littlefinger was doing to Jeyne Poole. Was he just having her trained to work in one of his brothels, or did he intend her to play Arya from the start? We're told she has scars from being whipped, Ramsey's been told she's trained to satisfy him. Did Littlefinger expect this, did he know who he'd be selling her to?

[lucimay]

i'm not sure. they've certainly gone gungho for the sexual stuff and even further than they really needed to go if you ask me (that whole scene in littlefinger's study with the whores) but tyrion's darkness does seem to have been downplayed quite a bit. i hope you're wrong murrin, cause if you're right, i don't even wanna see how they play stoneheart. cause that is some darkness there. and yeah...ramsay. hmmm. we'll have to see i guess.

oh and can you do me a favor and go over to mallory's to the add a letter word game and see if you can make a move there? sorus has me stumped. sorry...change a letter game. change a letter.

[I'm Murrin]

That's the thing... they put in gratuitous nudity, and there's threat and moderate violence, but so far I don't see them going for the explicit sexual violence, gore, and torture.

[lucimay]

That's the thing... they put in gratuitous nudity, and there's threat and moderate violence, but so far I don't see them going for the explicit sexual violence, gore, and torture.

true.

oh and never mind about the word game. i got it.