How will the Haruchai be redeemed?

[DrPaul]

If Nom's defeat of Ceer and Hergrom in TOT is any indication, the Masters would be no match for a host of raving Sandgorgons (plus skurj) in a direct physical confrontation. However they can communicate mentally with the Sandgorgons, which could enable them to confound the influence of samadhi Sheol.

The other thing to remember is that the decision to send Bhapa and Pahni with the Ardent to Revelstone was made before Jeremiah freed his mind with his bone structure. If Jeremiah can either (a) imprison/transport the Sandgorgons, skurj and cavewights or (b) find a way for the company to enter Mount Thunder by bypassing the Sandgorgons, skurj and cavewights, this may obviate the problem (but then again it may not, in terms of the Masters' conception of their own commitments).

[wayfriend]

Good point, Dr. There is potential for the sandgorgons to be turned aside rather than combatted, and possibly even enlisted against the skurj.

Shoe, I forgot to say earlier that I echo your sentiment about whether Linden or Thomas need to be there when the Haruchai are persuaded by Pahni. Doesn't seem right that neither of them will be, but it doesn't seem plausible that either of them will be.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Good point, Dr. There is potential for the sandgorgons to be turned aside rather than combatted, and possibly even enlisted against the skurj.

Shoe, I forgot to say earlier that I echo your sentiment about whether Linden or Thomas need to be there when the Haruchai are persuaded by Pahni. Doesn't seem right that neither of them will be, but it doesn't seem plausible that either of them will be.

Well, now that Jeremiah is fully functioning they can just hop into the bone-mobile and be in Revelstone in no time to organize the resistance. I can see this happening. Though I hope Jer doesn't become too dex ex machina. Maybe Donaldson will limit his power with a lack in raw materials for his constructs.

Edit to add - is that avatar flash real?

[wayfriend]

My animated gif avatar was made from this famous youtube video, but not by me. www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bmhjf0rKe8

As far as hopping to Revelstone, what seems implausible to me is that the Timewarden would have said to Pahni and Bhapa what he did, and then have it turn out to be unnecessary because TC or Linden show up.

'In some ways, you two have the hardest job. You'll have to survive. And you'll have to make them listen to you. They won't hear her. She's already given them too many reasons to feel ashamed of themselves.'

[Edit]Rereading this, it may be possible that "her" refers to Linden here. I assumed it meant Pahni at first. So this may mean that Linden will be present. But it need not mean that.

[Vraith]

Good point, Dr. There is potential for the sandgorgons to be turned aside rather than combatted, and possibly even enlisted against the skurj.

I've hinted and hoped exactly that in several places.

But I should have posted more vigorously on the Har. recently, I nearly agree then say "NO...that ain't it!" [in my mind] on things said lately especially you and Lucimay. I think I've just badly said what I want, or maybe obscurely...been told I'm too dense or leave too much out before.

The Har. feel self worth, a lot of it. Like a weightlifter who knows perfectly well he's a strong SOB. Yet still wants to know where, exactly, he stands in the entire schema.
Also, returning to the ideal/origin/service...in a way the same end I was after, but their problem is they have never had/understood that ideal...all they know is their obedience to the rules is what they have. I've tried a lot of analogies on this various places, but think I now have the best/clearest one I've come up with so far: The Har. are like a people who follow the Ten Commandments without knowing the god above [Ideal] nor allowing the context below [using earthpower is bad always...the end, eventually, is corruption because the power isn't them, it's a weapon. NOTICE: they exclude themselves. As if what they are/have is NOT a weapon. As if the ability to mindspeak and pummel others into submission is different from the ability to summon Lord's Fire, or play a lute.]

[High Lord Tolkien]

Good point, Dr. There is potential for the sandgorgons to be turned aside rather than combatted, and possibly even enlisted against the skurj.

I'm not sure they would be effective against the skurji though.
I seem to remember that they were getting roasted/damaged by skuji in the kitchen sink battle at First Woodhelven.

[wayfriend]

I seem to remember that they were getting roasted/damaged by skuji in the kitchen sink battle at First Woodhelven.

(There were no skurj at the Battle of First Woodhelven as far as I know.)

[High Lord Tolkien]

OH..........yeah, that was Roger's "hand".

(i still think they'd be roasted)

[wayfriend]

Maybe they'll be merged together and become some sort of giant worm that lives in the desert ... that could be an interesting creature.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Maybe they'll be transported to Earth and try to terraform it to their liking. If that happens it will be a matter for men.

[bikebryan]

Maybe they'll be merged together and become some sort of giant worm that lives in the desert ... that could be an interesting creature.

Once they start producing Melange...well, can you imagine a Lord, being able to utlize the full spectrum of Earthpower, also on a great drug like the spice Melange? WOW.

[danlo]

The sleeper must awake and be puissant!

[dirtcat]

Maybe they'll be transported to Earth and try to terraform it to their liking. If that happens it will be a matter for men.

Or simply a method for madness.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Maybe they'll be transported to Earth and try to terraform it to their liking. If that happens it will be a matter for men.

Or simply a method for madness.

[RaverRats]

Sorry if I am asking a dumb question. but is Brinn still alive? Can't remember seeing him in the dead zone. So when the Isle went down, with the tree still existing, I am assuming Brinn survived as Guardian. If so, with the Worm out and about, couldn't Brinn have left his guardianship of the tree and is now on his way to redeem the Haruchai?

Brinn's gaze was knowing and absolute. "Be not dismayed, ur-Lord." His tone reconciled passion and self-control. "Though I may no longer sojourn in your service, I am not dead to life and use. Good will come of it, when there is need."[quote]

[High Lord Tolkien]

Sorry if I am asking a dumb question. but is Brinn still alive? Can't remember seeing him in the dead zone. So when the Isle went down, with the tree still existing, I am assuming Brinn survived as Guardian. If so, with the Worm out and about, couldn't Brinn have left his guardianship of the tree and is now on his way to redeem the Haruchai?

Brinn's gaze was knowing and absolute. "Be not dismayed, ur-Lord." His tone reconciled passion and self-control. "Though I may no longer sojourn in your service, I am not dead to life and use. Good will come of it, when there is need."

Nice!
Not dumb at all.
I didn't consider that.
Brinn should be free to act now I would think.
I still say that the "One Tree" is actually an antler like thing on the head of the Worm.

[Vraith]

that is a really good catch on Brinn, I completely forgot that line...I don't have the books with me to look at where and why it was said...but I didn't notice anything related to it happening since then, and it seems a pretty powerful, definitive, and absolute statement.
Maybe its something else than the redemption of his people, though that would seem strange...but it almost has to be something.

[wayfriend]

Yep, that's a fine catch there, Rats. BTW, welcome to the Watch. BTWBTW, Why not intro yourself over in the Intro Yourself Forum?

In the GI, Donaldson says that the Theomach won't be in the story again, but he also says that the Theomach died when Brinn defeated him, and so I guess Brinn lives on as Brinn and not as the Theomach. And therefore Brinn is eligible to be in the story one more time.

Another way it makes a whole lot of sense: Donaldson must have added that whole bit about the Theomach defeating the previous Guardian for a good reason. So it makes sense that the Guardian has to factor in somewhere.

Finally, Brinn also stands for the notion of the Haruchai becoming stronger through defeat. Only Brinn's defeat by the merewives enabled him to defeat the Guardian. This has to be related in some way to their redemption.

[High Lord Tolkien]

and Brinn is the only one I can think of that will change the Masters.
No idea how that will work with Pahni though.....


And.............if the Elohim are gone will the Haruchai finally find their "worth" if they become the protectors of the Earth? (and in a good way not the jerks they currently are)

[wayfriend]

HLT, after the Haruchai chose to serve the Lords, and that didn't work, and then served Covenant, and that didn't work, and then served The Land, and that didn't work, do you think their answer is going to be ... serving something else they haven't tried yet?

I think three failures is Donaldson saying that they need a paradigm shift. They need to try something completely different. They need to give up one of their preconceived notions, like, for instance, that they need to serve something.