Bannor in Love?

[Nekrimah]

Hi, I'm new here...

I read the First Chron about 15 years ago. I was young and there were some nuances I missed, although it was certainly action packed enough!

Now, rereading Lord Foul's Bane, with some age on me, I noticed some things that seem to be implied but not stated outright.

The Quest for the Staff of Law is attacked by kresh just before arriving at Manhome in the Plains of Ra. The Ramen use ropes to strangle them all, and Cord Grace leaps out of nowhere to kill one last kresh with her rope just before it attacks.

Bannor then examines the dead kresh, picks up the rope, gives Covenant a short history lesson about the Ramen, then breaks it.

When I was younger I thought he merely disdained the rope, the Haruchai use no weapons.

But Bannor stepped over to the dead wolf and pulled Grace's rope from around its neck. Holding the cord in a fighting grip, he stretched it taut.

"A good weapon," he said with his awkward inflectionlessness. "The Ramen did mighty work with it in the days when High Lord Kevin fought Corruption openly." Something in his tone reminded Covenant that the Bloodguard were lusty men who had gone unwived for more than two thousand years.

Then, on the spur of an obscure impulse, Bannor tightened his muscles, and the rope snapped. Shrugging slightly, he dropped the pieces on the dead kresh. His movement had the finality of a prophecy. Without a glance at Cord Grace, he left the hilltop to mount the Ranyhyn that had chosen him.

But now that I'm older, it seems to me the text is dropping some mighty hints. It seems rather obvious now. Bannor admires Cord Grace and the Ramen. Then Covenant remembers that the Bloodguard were lusty men, unwived for centuries, ascetic, womanless and old by their Vow.

Bannor has an "obscure impulse", and breaks the rope, with such "finality of a prophecy". And the text makes sure to mention he does not look at Cord Grace.

(Who's playing hard to get?)

I think Bannor fell in love with Grace, but constrained by the Vow, breaks the rope in sexual frustration.

Or maybe I'm the sexually frustrated one?

I've only reread Lord Foul's Bane, and haven't started on the others yet.

I remember in The Power that Preserves, Bannor refuses to follow Covenant and the Giant down Landsdrop and goes away with the Ramen. Never says why.

Bannor never declares his affection outright. Damn, will he ever get laid?

[Fist and Faith]

Could be what we tell little girls.
"Why does he keep picking on me?!?"
"Because he likes you."

"Why does he keep breaking my cord?"
"Because he likes you."

Heh.

But seriously, yeah, you could be right. The Bloodguard, the Haruchai in general, most definitely DO feel passion, at least as strongly as any other race. They just express it in ways we don't always recognize, or don't interpret correctly.

And welcome to the Watch.

[Holsety]

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion: I think you are dead on.

[hyarmion]

I think I picked up on the sexual symbolism of this scene on my second reading of the First Chrons (I dont think one has to be Sigmund Freud to see it): By pulling the cord stiff Bannor is expressing his sexual desire, and then by breaking it (ouch!!) he is reaffirming his denial of such desires.

[Holsety]

I think I picked up on the sexual symbolism of this scene on my second reading of the First Chrons (I dont think one has to be Sigmund Freud to see it): By pulling the cord stiff Bannor is expressing his sexual desire, and then by breaking it (ouch!!) he is reaffirming his denial of such desires.

To some extent, I think it could be a bit of a dominance/superiority thing because of the tension between the Bloodguard and the Ramen generally (though exacerbated by sexual tension). You know, he is strong bloodguard, *flexes muscles*, no ropey girly man.

[peter]

For me I think, is this maybe reading a bit to much into the scene - although I do concur that the interpretation is a perfectly valid one.

I had always interpreted it as at first (by his words) Bannors tacit approval of the Ramens efforts (both current and historical), in the fight against Corruption, but then he tests the cord (and the Ramen) both physically (and mentally) against the thew and muscle (and capability) of the Haruchai. They are found wanting. He shrugs and walks away. It is of no significance - the Haruchai suffice.

Bannor would certainly have 'appreciated' Cord Grace as a woman, but only in the sense of her reminder of his own self-imposed womanless state. I don't believe any Haruchai would have ever contemplated consumating a relationship with anyone other than a Haruchai woman (not even the five fingered widow ). It is to my lasting regret that we were never allowed to meet the Harichai women and children (ditto the Giants re children) but I suspect they would be of a nature that would not be replacable in any way - least of all the copulatory act - by women of other races (though my bet would be that Haruchai lovemaking would be as extreme in it's tender and gentle nature as other aspects of their life were in their hardness.) The 'sepparateness' of the Haruchai would never be breached by an act of such closeness and intimacy with another race.

[Holsety]

(though my bet would be that Haruchai lovemaking would be as extreme in it's tender and gentle nature as other aspects of their life were in their hardness.)

Nah man. Ever seen History of Violence? Angry sex. That's what the Haruchai have. And, on narrow stairways. Yes. The Haruchai have two story houses with staircases.

And sometimes the women put on cheerleader uniforms and they roleplay Haruchai high school sex (haruchai play cricket, just so you know, not football).

OK on to the actual discussion.

The 'sepparateness' of the Haruchai would never be breached by an act of such closeness and intimacy with another race.

I would like to open my comments by pointing out that, if you have read the second chronicles, specifically The One Tree, you will be aware that the Haruchai have already (in our world, if not in the world of Bannor in the middle of LFB) breached that separateness you suspect exists.

On the one hand, you might offer that, due to their shame at being called away, it is clear that this is an extenuating circumstance and in all other instances, including with the ramen, there would be no attraction or intimacy. I would respond that, because the haruchai were ashamed because they abandoned their duty as a result of the situation they were placed in, there is no reason to assume that it is either attraction or consummation of attraction that the haruchai detest in themselves - it is failing to perform their duty.

That being said, Peter, I do suspect you have a point about the Haruchai not being likely to consummate anything with women not sui generis. I do not, however, believe that is such a strong emotion/conviction/principle/urge that they have no admiration or attraction for ramen women, or women of the land. From my point of view, Covenant's assessment was probably quite perceptive. All that being said, your post is good, your viewpoint raises good questions. It is only my feelings that disagree.

That being said, what I have noticed, that none of us have commented on till now explicitly (I think) is that it is not Donaldson who says that Bannor is lusty over Cord Grace, but rather Donaldson tells us that Covenant is reminded of this by his tone. Thus, while this is in my view unlikely, the sexual aspect of what is going on may be in Covenant's imagination.

[peter]

Yes Holesty - I do think the Merewive's incident is not of the same nature as the type of conjoining we might consider between Cord grace and Bannor. Inabilaty to resist the compulsion placed upon them, Ceer and Cail certainly performed 'the act' with those Sirens of the Seas - but this was because they sang the song of the Haruchai womenfolk themselves - but a million times more so. This was the one thing alone that no Haruchai would have been able to resist (well, that and the Illearth Stone perhaps ). I am sure that feminine beauty would in no way be lost on them - but as I say cannot see them sucumbing to it unless it was framed in the strong and defiant features of a proud Haruchai fighting girl.

[Ananda]

You guys sure have put a lot of thought into the sexlives of the haruchai!

[Holsety]

You guys sure have put a lot of thought into the sexlives of the haruchai!

Bahaha I was waiting for someone to say something like that!

[Linna Heartbooger]

Ananda- What?
With regards to the haruchai, do deny that the sexual part of their being is of relevance to who they are?
Do you despise this part of their humanity?
Would you make a mockery of their deathless asceticism which chooses to - in answer to the call of Landservice - revoke an essential, valued part of their being?

(okay, I enjoyed writing that / throwing the accusation out there.)

Holsety-

I would respond that, because the haruchai were ashamed because they abandoned their duty as a result of the situation they were placed in, there is no reason to assume that it is either attraction or consummation of attraction that the haruchai detest in themselves - it is failing to perform their duty.

Thank-you.

Btw, when I finished LFB this time, I was consciously looking for the "prophesy" that might be hinted at... so I especially noticed some of the wording of Tuvor's death:

Tuvor shuddered again and died with a flat groan as if the chord of his vow had snapped.

Thinking within the mindset of "What is important is what is happening to Covenant"... (and using the fact that SRD seems to be very intentional about his wording) maybe there's a connection.

Actually, I think I have something.
Bloodguard revoking their marriages for the vow - Covenant's marriage was something he had to give up without his will being involved - about the last thing he wanted to give up.
So the bloodguard are in such a unique position to draw Covenant's allegiance - dare I say love, or will I get in trouble on this thread?
Tuvor dying in Covenant's arms - he was in the position to extract Covenant's (admittedly ambiguous) promise to be true.

There's a big connection between death and the end of Covenant's marriage - his life being trivialized - him being treated as if he's already dead.

[Holsety]

I do think that's correct. Just to make sure I'm on t he same page, though (perhaps literally), Tuvor is the first mark who died in Lord Foul's Bane, fighting Rockworm?

[Linna Heartbooger]

Yup... that's him.

[Ananda]

Ananda- What?
With regards to the haruchai, do deny that the sexual part of their being is of relevance to who they are?
Do you despise this part of their humanity?
Would you make a mockery of their deathless asceticism which chooses to - in answer to the call of Landservice - revoke an essential, valued part of their being?

(okay, I enjoyed writing that / throwing the accusation out there.)

I stand accused! Noooooes!!!!! I agree I havent considered the steamy possibilities of hawt Bannor lovin'! I am ashamed.

I will go meditate on haruchai sexiness now.

[Ur Dead]

I think Bannor fell in love with Grace, but constrained by the Vow, breaks the rope in sexual frustration.

After two thousand years without having sex you would be frustrated too.
But it wouldn't work out. Bloodguard can't have any long term relationships.

[Tefazipipo]

*stares at copy of "All Things Ending" then sets it tenderly aside* *stares at you*

Hello! I have noticed in general life that the less of a sex-life people can identify you as having, the more interested they are in you having one. Perhaps this is why the Bloodguard having severed themselves from their wives and very clearly not having sexual relationships (or sleep, for that matter) makes some people very uncomfortable. I think it was love for the Ranyhyn and respect for the Ramen that led Bannor to go to them. The horses are purely themselves, and the Ramen serve them purely for love, with no thought for their own gain. That, to me, is the appeal for Bannor. Perhaps also that's a bit of what he sees in TC. Someone not trying to gain something but fighting tooth and nail to be himself.

[High Lord Tolkien]

For me I think, is this maybe reading a bit to much into the scene - although I do concur that the interpretation is a perfectly valid one.

I had always interpreted it as at first (by his words) Bannors tacit approval of the Ramens efforts (both current and historical), in the fight against Corruption, but then he tests the cord (and the Ramen) both physically (and mentally) against the thew and muscle (and capability) of the Haruchai. They are found wanting. He shrugs and walks away. It is of no significance - the Haruchai suffice.

That's how I took it as well.

[Shuram Gudatetris]

This is a neat line of thought!

I came looking for a thread on the subject of Bannor breaking Grace's cord, sure I had missed something. I mean, why would he be such a dick? I don't recall any other Bloodguard going around damaging other people's property. The Ramen are allies for crying out loud!

Reading Nekrimah's post reminded that the line about the Bloodguard being lusty and unwived had also seemed out of place. There certainly seems to some validity to the idea that Bannor was frustrated and attracted to Cord Grace.

I think I picked up on the sexual symbolism of this scene on my second reading of the First Chrons (I dont think one has to be Sigmund Freud to see it): By pulling the cord stiff Bannor is expressing his sexual desire, and then by breaking it (ouch!!) he is reaffirming his denial of such desires.

Intriguing interpretation!

I've read and re-read the quote from LFB posted above several times in the last few minutes, and can't help but feel that Bannor is accusing the Ramen of something. Or maybe he's feeling nostalgic and regretful? Recalling the days of Kevin, when the Bloodguard were enamored of Kevin, and all of Corruptions foes were fighting valiantly against him? I don't know. I'd love to pick SRD's brain on the subject (maybe it's worth checking the his GI for more clues).