M.O.A.R part3 Final Nail in THOOLAH's coffin

[High Lord Tolkien]

So in the beginning of my 3rd Chronicle THOOLAH life I raged against Linden's "love" for a child that has never even acknowledged her existence.

It made no sense to me that Linden was so willing to sacrifice everything that she knew, Giants, the Land and all the innocent people in it to rescue her oblivious son.

It was all....."my son" "my son" "my son!".........bleah!


And then.......
And then Thomas Covenant flips my THOOLAH world on me with this regarding Linden's rescue quest:

2nd chapter.........page 41 "Mhoram would approve".

That's right.....similar thing in tPtP when Mhoram correctly lets TC go to save the life of a little girl that TC didn't even know.
Which I praised Mhoram for.....
Damn-it!

THEN.....3rd chapter page 49 "None of the love you lavished on your son was wasted"......

God-damn-it!


And then at the end of the book she's knocking Ceasures out of the air like flies.....

Total.
Bad.
Ass.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

Dude. First step is admitting you have a problem. Good job.

[ussusimiel]

That's right.....similar thing in tPtP when Mhoram correctly lets TC go to save the life of a little girl that TC didn't even know.
Which I praised Mhoram for.....
Damn-it!

I don't want to nit-pick (I do actually ) but there are almost no similarities between the two situations. Firstly, Jeremiah is obviously crucial to the fate of the world of the Land, otherwise the deaths of (most blatantly) Liand and Anele would not be justified a-la-Mhoram.

Secondly, Jeremiah is in the world of the Land. Linden is acting out of a practical need whereas TC was acting out of a principled need. If Linden were acting out of a 'so-called' principled need then she would be behaving in a most selfish and thoroughly unjustifiable manner. I don't accuse her of that, merely of the constant (and to my ears inauthentic) whining about her dear son and as soon as he is freed she doesn't even give him a hug. What a wagon!

THOOLAH!

u.

[TIC TAC]

So in the beginning of my 3rd Chronicle THOOLAH life I raged against Linden's "love" for a child that has never even acknowledged her existence.

Words can sometimes make arguments but most of the time not so much.
The things we believe are driven mostly by feelings.
I have never had any deep feeling that there was any justification for Linden's love for Jerimiah.
I know this could be a failing on my part or that of SRD to properly convey the relationship in a way that makes me "feel" Linden's love. I say Linden's love because as you HLT have properly pointed out there was none to be had from the kid until recently in the story.

Now imagine someone that openly and plainly dislikes a character from day one trying to understand that character's motivations under conditions that said motivations are in my mind nearly non existent.
From the VERY beginning of the Last Chronicles I have not believed in Linden's love for her adopted child because the only evidence of it has been from what I deem as insubstantial statements from the character and actions that seem congruent with someone who has concern but I feel ZERO emotion from Linden as though she's going through the motions like a bad actor dragging her feel through an underdeveloped script.
Again. To me it's all talk and no substance, no feeling.

Now if it was Covenant I believe I could accept that he has feelings toward another character if he simply stated that he cared for them.
But Linden has not earned that kind of forgiveness from me.

I continue to stand firmly with THOOLAH as I have not been swayed by either the books or the fans that support LA with their well meaning but ineffective arguments.

BTW there's another aspect of LA that bugs me and its similar to the annoyance that Wesley Crusher from Star Trek The Next Generation produced whenever the character performed some amazing feat without earning the knowledge through life experience or hard work.
Linden has been granted great power through the use of the Staff of Law and of white gold but often times, IMHO, she finds awe inspiring uses for that power withouth haveing a genuine clue.
Now the Lords of Revelstone ALL worked their asses off earning the knowledge of earthpower etc as did the Ur-Viles and other lorewize creatures. LA however just knows stuff in many cases. Intuition? Luck? Divine guidance?
Covenant did some miraculous things too without earning the knowledge to do so however TC did buy some credibility with me by the fact that he spent quite a lot of time with Lords and lorewize characters throughout the first Chronicles. Linden's experiences in the Second chronicles were far less valuable in that the mechanics of lore and the way it was presented was wildly perverted by the Sunbane.
Its like Covenant was "taught" by Rembrandt and Linden by Picaso.

[wayfriend]

I have never had any deep feeling that there was any justification for Linden's love for Jerimiah.
I know this could be a failing on my part or that of SRD to properly convey the relationship in a way that makes me "feel" Linden's love.

Looking at your name here on the Watch, this is probably just a wasted effort, but ...

If you look at any other "mundane" stories that include an endangered child and a parent on a quest to rescue them, you won't see a lot in the way of "proof" that the parent loves their child. Mostly such stories are preluded with day-to-day, normal family activities. Such activities are normally devoid of overt declarations of love and devotion. In fact, if the child is any kind of teenager, there may not even be civility.

In those stories, if you were to search for proof of parental love, how much would you find? How much of it does the author presume you assume, just because he has written about parents and their children?

But Linden has an adopted child. A child with some sort of mental problem that precludes communication.

You need to ask yourself, are you suspicious that Linden may not love this child from the onset? Do you, therefore, expect more in the way of "proof" than you otherwise would?

I think so. Because we only have a few chapters in which to see Linden and Jeremiah's life. And in those few chapters we have seen how very much Linden is in tune with the vestiges of Jeremiah's feelings, how very happy she is with him, and how well Jeremiah is in her care.

I think that, for the most part, Donaldson assumes that when he presents a child and a parent, his readers will assume there is parental love, parental care, and parental concern. If you enter the story with a preconception that there isn't these things, and look for proof of them, you won't find much. Exactly like in any of those other stories. So it's fair to wonder how much of your resulting opinion is due to whatever preconceptions you bring into the interpretation.

For example, some people feel like Linden should be pining for Covenant and not moving on, and that Jeremiah is therefore some sort of replacement which they cannot help but resent.

Other people might interpret Linden's choice to not stay home with her child as evidence of a lack of parental love. Or they choose to perceive Linden's adoption as having other motives than love, and are therefore suspicious that she loves him at all.

Donaldson's not perfect. But in my opinion, if he failed here, he failed because he wasn't anticipating how suspicious people would be of Linden's love for Jeremiah.

[ussusimiel]

I have never had any deep feeling that there was any justification for Linden's love for Jerimiah.
I know this could be a failing on my part or that of SRD to properly convey the relationship in a way that makes me "feel" Linden's love.

......

Donaldson's not perfect. But in my opinion, if he failed here, he failed because he wasn't anticipating how suspicious people would be of Linden's love for Jeremiah.

I'm with Mr. Joykiller here, my response to Linden's relationship with Jeremiah is the same as his. I'm not sure it matters who's at fault, what is important is that Linden's core motivation in the Last Chrons is undermined and thus, for me, huge swathes of the books are rendered hard-going. I'm not a die-hard Linden disliker. I was quite happy with her in the 2nd Chrons. Her love of TC was touching and convincing and her empathy for the Land unquestioned.

Simply stating time after time how much Linden loves Jeremiah is not enough. There were endless opportunities to 'show' this through flashback and memory and this is where the doubt arises for me because it never happens. Whatever the reasons are for it, the effect is that I remain unconvinced of her love for Jeremiah. I certainly hope that his new state changes this.

u.

[I'm quite satisfied to see that a thread with the blessed THOOLAH in the title is as rightly focused as usual on Linden's faults and iniquities THOOLAH!]

[DWOLF]

It is easy to say "screw him, he's just a cabbage." because he is. I'm curious what Jerry will do, but I have no emotional investment in him. I had no problem with Linden in the 2nd Chrons, doesn't mean I want her as a flat mate. I'd prefer Brinn, quieter and makes less mess.

[dlbpharmd]

Someone please tell He Who Must Not Be Named that THOOLAH is alive and well, and there is no coffin in which to hammer a 'final nail.'

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Lord Voldemort is the vice-president of thoolah? O_o

Well...I guess Linden's the equivalent of muggle-born, regarding the circumstances.

[ussusimiel]

Someone please tell He Who Must Not Be Named that THOOLAH is alive and well, and there is no coffin in which to hammer a 'final nail.'

*whisper* Judging by the tenor of most of the comments on this thread I am beginning to wonder if this isn't a sneaky subtle ploy by HLQ to multiply the opportunities for the THOOLAH faithful to express their opprobrium.

He may be playing a double-game and will in the long-run prove to be the greatest of us all! *whisper*

THOOLAH!

u.

[Vraith]

simply stating time after time how much Linden loves Jeremiah is not enough. There were endless opportunities to 'show' this through flashback and memory and this is where the doubt arises for me because it never happens. Whatever the reasons are for it, the effect is that I remain unconvinced of her love for Jeremiah.

I'm not really revved up by the love/hate LInden stuff anymore...but on this, I have to make a public note that it's funny to complain about too much Linden and still want more Linden backstory. Why are you unconvinced is the real question...what she spent on him is briefly shown compared to other things perhaps, but it is firm and deep. Perhaps because it IS succinct and non-repetitive compared to other stuff is why you lost track of it? I actually find her love connection to Jerry more "real" than with TC in some ways...especially the way she utterly misunderstands his meaning of "don't touch me" in the mid to end parts of AATE. [and his lack of recognition of the fact that she misunderstands....OTOH, this is absolutely realistic for actual couples, even--maybe especially--the most loving and survivable.]

[Orlion]

simply stating time after time how much Linden loves Jeremiah is not enough. There were endless opportunities to 'show' this through flashback and memory and this is where the doubt arises for me because it never happens. Whatever the reasons are for it, the effect is that I remain unconvinced of her love for Jeremiah.

I'm not really revved up by the love/hate LInden stuff anymore...but on this, I have to make a public note that it's funny to complain about too much Linden and still want more Linden backstory. Why are you unconvinced is the real question...what she spent on him is briefly shown compared to other things perhaps, but it is firm and deep. Perhaps because it IS succinct and non-repetitive compared to other stuff is why you lost track of it? I actually find her love connection to Jerry more "real" than with TC in some ways...especially the way she utterly misunderstands his meaning of "don't touch me" in the mid to end parts of AATE. [and his lack of recognition of the fact that she misunderstands....OTOH, this is absolutely realistic for actual couples, even--maybe especially--the most loving and survivable.]

Let's not forget she is completely willing to let everything else rot just to save Jeremiah. If that doesn't convince people of devotion, I do not know what will.

[aTOMiC]

simply stating time after time how much Linden loves Jeremiah is not enough. There were endless opportunities to 'show' this through flashback and memory and this is where the doubt arises for me because it never happens. Whatever the reasons are for it, the effect is that I remain unconvinced of her love for Jeremiah.

I'm not really revved up by the love/hate LInden stuff anymore...but on this, I have to make a public note that it's funny to complain about too much Linden and still want more Linden backstory. Why are you unconvinced is the real question...what she spent on him is briefly shown compared to other things perhaps, but it is firm and deep. Perhaps because it IS succinct and non-repetitive compared to other stuff is why you lost track of it? I actually find her love connection to Jerry more "real" than with TC in some ways...especially the way she utterly misunderstands his meaning of "don't touch me" in the mid to end parts of AATE. [and his lack of recognition of the fact that she misunderstands....OTOH, this is absolutely realistic for actual couples, even--maybe especially--the most loving and survivable.]

Let's not forget she is completely willing to let everything else rot just to save Jeremiah. If that doesn't convince people of devotion, I do not know what will.

Maybe I missed her transformation but the Linden Avery I got to know in the second chrons doesn't seem like the same woman we meet at the beginning of the Last.
There is an in-congruency in her personality that shakes one's faith in her ability to allow herself to be emotionally stable enough to love an adopted child. Linden supporters would probably argue that the change in LA was demonstrated when she healed the Land but I'm just not comfortable with it. It doesn't feel organic to me. I need the exposition of her relationship with Jeremiah even if it means I'm forced to spend more time with a character I don't and have never connected with.

Long live THOOLAH!!!!!

[Cambo]

Linden supporters would probably argue that the change in LA was demonstrated when she healed the Land

That's exactly what I'd argue. And like a lot of complaints against Linden, I automatically measure it against my experience of Covenant. I detested Covenant in the First Chrons. I pitied the whiny rapist, but also found him exceedingly unpleasant company, due to his being a whiny rapist. Only in TPTP did he begin to make me admire him, and only right at the end could I celebrate him. Then in the 2nd Chrons, it was like reading a different character. He became an utter badass in big ways and small. Re-reading made me realise how completely this transformation was contained within his victory in TPTP. His character in the 2nd Chrons is just a logical extension of the resolution of his character arc in the 1st. He answers Joan and the Community of Retribution with compassion and Foul with rage, and puts himself in harms way with no hesitation, because that's who he is now.

Same for Linden, IMO. Her arc in the 2nd Chrons involved her defining herself against the lessons of her parents, learning to heal in a way that was inherently emotionally present rather than clinically detached, and learning to affirm good in the face of evil rather than denying it. All of these lessons make complete sense to me in how she starts of the 3rd Chrons, especially in her relationship with Jeremiah. She has taken on a broken, suffering being into her private world, given unconditional healing and love, and left herself recklessly vulnerable to pain because of that. That's who she is now.

Of course, this only applies to her character in the prologue. She's learning entirely new lessons now.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Linden supporters would probably argue that the change in LA was demonstrated when she healed the Land

That's exactly what I'd argue. And like a lot of complaints against Linden, I automatically measure it against my experience of Covenant. I detested Covenant in the First Chrons. I pitied the whiny rapist, but also found him exceedingly unpleasant company, due to his being a whiny rapist. Only in TPTP did he begin to make me admire him, and only right at the end could I celebrate him. Then in the 2nd Chrons, it was like reading a different character. He became an utter badass in big ways and small. Re-reading made me realise how completely this transformation was contained within his victory in TPTP. His character in the 2nd Chrons is just a logical extension of the resolution of his character arc in the 1st. He answers Joan and the Community of Retribution with compassion and Foul with rage, and puts himself in harms way with no hesitation, because that's who he is now.

I find it hilarious that the cowardly, disgusting, selfish LFB/TIW-Covenant who whines and complains and bristles all the damn time and about threefold more than Linden has no hate club. I think part of the problem here stems from the fact that many people cannot readily accept a female anti-hero. Alas, old gender biases... Personally I'd be pleased to see more the likes of Brienne of Tarth, etc. as main characters in fantasy. I'm thoroughly fed up with the bland, brainless pretty princesses prancing about and being oh-so-goody-goody-doody-hoody + rainbows and pink sparkles. Leave that into the worlds of cartoon ponies.

[aTOMiC]

There is something compelling about Thomas Covenant that is a very different sort of personality dynamic than the one Donaldson gave to Linden. TC is indeed whiny, indeed a complainer, indeed selfish but also in a odd way he is self aware enough to realize that he is imperfect in that way. The Linden character is completely a creation of the second chronicles. She has no history, plays no part in the events which take place in the story that captured my interest in the book in the first place. (Beyond the retcon treatment she's getting in the Last Chrons that is.) Covenant's character arc is remarkable within the context of the first trilogy. He is a remarkably different person by the beginning of TPTP but also still true to his core nature. In the beginning of Lord Foul's Bane I was torn. Covenant was someone that deserved my sympathy because of his predicament and the way he was being treated by his neighbors and family. Then he raped Lena. But also I understood that he still believed he was dreaming and he was being affected profoundly by the return of his senses so there was at least an explanation for his actions, vile as they were. And there seemed to be no limit to the offenses TC could commit to the people that were all too willing to forgive him because they believed in his special nature, especially Mhoram. In spite of Covenant's flaws I never stopped rooting for the guy and by the time he was ready to rise to the occasion at the end of the trilogy he had redeemed himself in my eyes for the most part.
Linden's journey for me was very different.
Linden began the second chronicles as an interesting and likeable person but spent nearly all of her time in the Land being all the things that THOOLAH members have pointed out time and time again. We've spent most of our time finding her annoying and offensive without much in the way of redeeming qualities other than the fact that TC loves her in some way. That was never enough for me. The fact that she was given the role of savior for the Land at the end of the second chrons didn't cut any ice with me either. I still only managed to tolerate her character. And now she more than shares the protagonist role which makes the Last chrons rather difficult to read much of the time. I just don't like Linden Avery very much and its a testament to Donaldson's brilliance that he has created a character that still manages to be irritating even while performing positive and impressive feats.

I guess I sort of stumbled across a bit of an explanation for my THOOLAH participation.

I think there are those that read the first Chronicles and loved them. Read them over and over and over again for years. I was one of those people. Then comes the second chronicles and though I enjoyed them for the most part they didn't exactly catch lightning in a bottle the way the first chronicles did. The Last chrons seem to have much more in common with the second chrons than the first.

I guess what I'm saying is there are those that loved Star Wars in 1977 along with Lord Foul's Bane but just can't seem to gin up much enthusiasm for either the prequel movies or the other Covenant trilogies mainly because they just aren't the same. Something is profoundly different. One features Jar Jar Binks the other is burdened with Linden Avery. There are 20 somethings out there that watched Episode I when they were 10 years old that love Jar Jar Binks and I guess there are those that began reading the chrons in the LA era that can't think of it any other way which sort of makes sense to me.
I loved the first 10 seasons of the Simpsons. There are those that started watching at season 11 that can't imagine the show being any different.

To each his own and live and let live I say.

BTW I think Female Anti heroes are great. Just not this one. Its not because she isn't more average joe or she isn't ethnic enough or not masculine enough or feminine enough. None of that stuff has ever bothered me before. Its this character in particular that has been constructed in just this singular way that gets under my skin.
But that's me.

[wayfriend]

I have to admit, the varied responses to Linden fascinate me. I just cannot help but wonder why they are so varied. So I persue this from time to time. I try not to sound like I disapprove of anyone who dislikes Linden, because that's not my intent. My intent is to discern something about her. What is it that polarizes us?

Zorm, I see your point about male and female heroes. I'd like you to consider something that's very similar, but a bit more subtle, and tell me what you think about it. And that is this: Covenant's problems were external; Linden's problems were internal.

The causes of Covenant's initial state were all external. A disease, an ex-wife, society - these were the causes of his woes. Therefore, in some ways we admire his cantankerousness, his rage, his fears, his Don't Touch Mes. Because he's fighting back. He's resisting, even when he's doing it wrongly, he's resisting. And so he gains in our eyes a measure of respect.

Linden's problems, on the other hand, are internal. She has psychological scars from her parents, scars we don't even understand until two books into the story. Like Covenant, she's fighting back, and like Covenant, she's not succeeding. But we don't see her fighting. Because it's internal, and private. Therefore, rather than admiring Linden, we consider her weak.

People always suspect that psychological issues are a sign of weakness. Strong people -- people we can admire -- always emerge from their traumas emotionally sound and healthy.

So Linden's problems are the result of her being a wallowing and whining person. They are not the result of anything anyone has done to her. Who can respect that?

Of course, it doesn't help that the man gets the external problems while the woman gets the internal problems. That's just condign. Men are expected to be strong, we assume they are until otherwise told. Women are expected to be weak, we assume they are until otherwise told. The mold is there, prefitted for our preconceptions.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

I'll try to return to this later this week, the night's descending here again... However, to put it shortly: I find both Linden and Covenant fascinating characters, which is also the reason to my preference of the 2nd chrons over all the others. In an odd fashion, the characters complement one another, but get a bit 'out of balance' when the narration concentrates too much on one or the other. Meaning the 3rd chrons mainly now, since the 1st were, naturally, wrought beforehand. This might have something to do with the whole external/internal thing, but I always understood C. had his share of those (internal) also due to his own gradual mess-making within the Land. He considers killing himself in TIW. He wallows a lot also in the problems he himself created. The suicide of Linden's father and the consequences of his unlove are, in my opinion, external. Both fight back, though not in a linear fashion and often get dropped back into the abyss (like people with depressive tendencies in real life often do), and both grow a great deal as characters.

But, getting later back to that whole male/female strong/weak mold later.

And glad to hear if others appreciate female anti-heroes too.

[ussusimiel]

I like female hero/anti-heroes and I suppose that one of the conflicts I see is that the whole hero/anti-hero thing is played out (in fantasy and sci-fi anyway) in what is traditionally seen as the male realm. The problem here for the female hero/anti/hero is that to be successful they must take on masculine attributes. And it is here that the price is paid because, IMO, masculine attributes can only be taken on at the expense of feminine ones. The result of this is that female hero/anti-heroes end up seeming to have less and less heart. In contrast a male anti-hero like TC starts off seemingly heartless yet as the story progresses his heart seems to become greater and greater.

(I don't know if this is a general problem or is it one related to male writers writing female characters. I have had the same reaction to The Deed of Parksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon and other strong female characters.)

u.

[Cambo]

Uss, to me there's a glaring counter-example of that in the Malazan series.