Women, women! And darnit, my only complaint about Jeremiah

[Tefazipipo]

[mod edit - moved to AATE]

I am so happy that all of our Giants are women! Well, except for Lostson, who the Elohim screwed over. I noticed in reading that the Haurachai's main problem with Linden seems to be that she is a woman. Of course, they've also come to believe that Thomas Covenant is the greatest person ever.

My complaint about Jeremiah is that he is a boy. *sigh* Anele was the last hope of the land, and he's passed that on to Jeremiah, who I'm guessing will form a Forbidding that will contain the Worm, and possibly Lord Foul. Plus, must resolve the name of She. Plus, must neutralize the Sarangrave Lurker which also we now know that one's name. Thus once again a story has been manipulated so that all the women are supporting characters to make sure the man will save the world.

I don't mind that when it's the man from the beginning of the story, but I mind it if Jeremiah is the answer to everything, only because it would suit me better if he were a girl. *sigh*

[Frostheart Grueburn]

(You might want to place FR/AATE-specific plot twists within spoiler tags, since this is in the Runes forum. )

I personally have no problems with the ultimate savior of the Land being a male, but we cannot precisely predict the gender-balance of the most important roles of The Last Dark yet. SRD may well continue the pattern of the Second Chronicles: In my opinion, all the duties and deeds towards the end were spread out equally: both Linden AND Covenant redeemed the Land. Covenant's sacrifice, Linden's making of the Staff and the utmost healing. The First led the Giants, but she likely would have become cavewight-trodden mess without Pitchwife. He worked as the spiritual guide, she as the main strength. Sunder and Hollian fought against the perils as equals. All teamwork; don't really see one gender triumphing over the other.

Spoiler

The Swordmainnir, however...have to agree here. They're a truly refreshing bunch; not the traditional smoldering-hot amazons bouncing around in two stamps and a bootlace, but serious, badass warriors in proper armor. Love the fighting scenes. Still, would have liked to see some more of their men...I'm missing their bubbly humor. The Giantesses appear to have, generally, somewhat darker spirits. That, of course, may just be a subjective observation.

[Tefazipipo]

Oh shoot! I meant it for The Last Chronicles Forum! Too far down, I am sorry. The women/men issue isn't about triumphing, for me. It's okay. I just would rather Jeremiah a woman.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

A mod can probably move this into the AATE forum if they see it appropriate. Don't worry.

[dlbpharmd]

I noticed in reading that the Haurachai's main problem with Linden seems to be that she is a woman.

I don't see this. The Haruchai never seemed to have any issues with other powerful women, such as Elena or Lord Shetra.

[Tefazipipo]

That's why this should be in another thread. That impression came while reading AATE. As we are not generally privvy to their thoughts, it may be that they do have issues. They certainly would with Elena, who broke the Law of Death.

[wayfriend]

The Haruchai have issues with Linden because she's powerful and she wants to mess with their nice, peaceful status quo.

[Zarathustra]

I can't believe people worry about these things. What difference does it make which sex the "savior" is?

[Tefazipipo]

Recently I've been fretting a lot about the portrayal of women in entertainment. Just as African Americans, Native Americans and others react to their portrayal. "What difference does it make whether the character is played by a Chinese, Japanese or Korean?" Some people loathe Twilight because of Bella's character and cannot for the life of them believe that many other people adore it.

There are numerous occasions when I think a story would have been served better if some characters were the opposite sex. It's not that serious, more of a game I play in my head. This was partly triggered by reading an interview with a Blake's 7 writer who said that he'd introduced the character Servalan as a man and been mostly finished working on the script before he decided a woman would be cool reading those lines. Jacqueline Pierce, yay!

[Zarathustra]

Recently I've been fretting a lot about the portrayal of women in entertainment.

Doesn't that make it less entertaining? I can understand worrying about how women are treated in reality. But to get worked up over the sex of imaginary characters seems just bizarre to me.

Personally, as a white man, I couldn't imagine fretting about how white men are portrayed in entertainment. Darth Vader was a white man. So was the Emporer. Am I supposed to be upset, or something? Does this say something about white men being evil or susceptible to the Dark Side? I don't get it.

There are numerous occasions when I think a story would have been served better if some characters were the opposite sex.

In what way? How would the story be better if Jeremiah was a girl? Can you give a specific reason? For instance, would any of his actions have been any different? Or just his name?

It's not that serious, more of a game I play in my head.

I prefer Quake III Arena. Yeah, it's an old game, but I don't fret over the sex of the players. In fact, I play as a woman ... Min Donner ... because her avatar is skinny and therefore harder to see by my opponents.

[ussusimiel]

I don't mind that when it's the man from the beginning of the story, but I mind it if Jeremiah is the answer to everything, only because it would suit me better if he were a girl. *sigh*

I kinda see what you are getting at; Linden has all the power and looks like she's going to be the saviour but then it turns out Jeremiah is the key. Personally, I don't think that if Jerry was Geri it would make much of a difference to the story

Jeremiah has been basically characterless for most of the Last Chrons which also, IMO, makes him mostly genderless. However, his particular gift does seem to centre around boys' toys: racetracks, Tinkertoys etc. so there does seem to be a logic behind him being a boy. There is also the balance that his presence provides to Linden's loss of Covenant at the end of the 2nd Chrons.

I think, on the whole, that Linden having a male child probably works out better in terms of narrative structure. I seriously doubt that SRD thought, 'Can't have a woman saving the day! I'd better get some XY genes in there.' Not really his style, I'd say

A good thought experiment would be to re-imagine the story with Geri instead of Jerry. How would the dynamics play out differently? Presuming it was different from Jerry, what 'gift' would Geri have that would 'save' the world of the Land? What difference would it make having two female and one male saviour of the Land as opposed to vice versa? Playing with these ideas may cast light on why SRD chose to tell the story as he has (or not ).

u.

[Zarathustra]

Good points, U. In a series called, The Chronicles of THOMAS Covenant, where a female takes the lead role for three books, one can hardly say that women have been given a disproportionate role. This is Tom's story, but Linden has nearly taken it over. Even when he's back, he's not really altogether "there."

I think that art should reflect reality, illustrating What It Means to Be Human ... not simply project our wish-list for how we'd change reality if we could. Feminism has done many wonderful things in changing the way we view and treat women. But do we really need "affirmative action" type quotas for fictional characters, too? The story should serve the characters needs, not the readers' or the authors' politics. That would be proselytizing, which Donaldson has said many times that he is not doing. He tells the stories that his characters need to happen to them, not stories that society needs in order to feel better about itself.

[Tefazipipo]

Recently I've been fretting a lot about the portrayal of women in entertainment.

Doesn't that make it less entertaining? I can understand worrying about how women are treated in reality. But to get worked up over the sex of imaginary characters seems just bizarre to me.

We're quoty. Yes, actually, it removes some of the entertainment value when you look at a female character being belittled for her femininity by the male lead. When that offends me, it takes joy out of watching. The thing is that how women are treated in reality is reflected in our entertainment and what people are exposed to in their entertainment is reflected in how they will behave in reality.

I've read people pointing out more than once that your average white man, being in the group that is not often subject to racial profiling, doesn't generally get too upset about the fact that a bad guy happens to be white. After all, white people are everywhere. *waggle brows*

There are numerous occasions when I think a story would have been served better if some characters were the opposite sex.

In what way? How would the story be better if Jeremiah was a girl? Can you give a specific reason? For instance, would any of his actions have been any different? Or just his name?

I said "a story". I didn't say this story. The point of Jeremy being so non-active is that it would not have mattered if he were a she. So why not a she? He was not the only child of that woman to shove an arm into that fire. However, to take a quote from Star Trek: Voyager... on the subject of raising a child. Neelix asked what he had to offer a daughter, and Tuvok responded logically asking why it would be any different from what he would offer a son.

Again, this is not directly about this series. You know the Golden Compass stories? Lyra is the main character, a wildly active tomboy fighting, at least until she is put into a coma for days on end and after that is weakened and must rely on the male hero introduced to save the damsel in distress.

[ussusimiel]

The thing is that how women are treated in reality is reflected in our entertainment and what people are exposed to in their entertainment is reflected in how they will behave in reality.

This is a legitimate feminist concern, IMO. It is legitimate to point it out and highlight it whenever it occurs. Hopefully the result of this is that more writers (especially women) write stories, make films etc. that contain strong female characters that can reflect such people in the real world (thus creating a positive cycle by providing more positive images of women for women and men). What shouldn't be expected (as Z pointed out above) is that any author (male or female) feels obliged to include such characters in their work out of some sense of fairness or political pressure. It is a given that the quality of any work that is made under such circumstances will suffer.

I've read people pointing out more than once that your average white man, being in the group that is not often subject to racial profiling, doesn't generally get too upset about the fact that a bad guy happens to be white.

This is known as the 'white wage' in the sociology of race (myself and Z may diverge in our opinions at this point. No male hegemony here ). And added to that us lucky white men also benefit from what is known in feminism as the 'male dividend'. And it is here that I believe that feminism remains completely relevant today despite the backlash that has been ongoing against it now for nearly forty years. That many young women in contemporary Western society have chosen to use the freedoms that feminism gained for them to re-enslave themselves in unequal roles and as commodified objects doesn't mean that the feminist project has failed or is futile. It means that feminism is as relevant as ever and needs to find new and effective ways to communicate its message*.

u.

*[In saying that I do believe that feminism does need to change its position on men. The relentless attack on male identity has served its purpose and can be shown to be flawed. The social constructionist idea (that men and women are essentially the same and are totally formed by their culture and upbringing) needs to be set aside (if it already hasn't been). It was useful initially as a way of asserting female identity in a positive manner. Now it is destructive and unhelpful, IMO.]

[Zarathustra]

Yes, actually, it removes some of the entertainment value when you look at a female character being belittled for her femininity by the male lead. When that offends me, it takes joy out of watching.

Tefa, I didn't realize we were talking about female characters being belittled for their femininity. I thought you were complaining that Jeremiah was a boy, and wanting to take his gender away from him and give his narrative "glory" to a girl for the sake of mere substitution to a more "Tefa-approved" gender. Now you're changing the subject, a bit, and conflating two distinct issues: sexual quotas in fiction, and depictions of female denigration.

So, following your lead, I disagree that seeing depictions of people being belittled robs such depictions of any entertainment value. We're talking about stories. Have you ever read a story without conflict? It's boring. It's not a story. Characters must face challenges in order to have a story. And one of those challenges--just like in the real world--is facing people who belittle you for unfair reasons. If we cleanse our stories of this real element of human experience, we do a grave disservice to the feminist movement by acting as participants in covering up these "crimes of humanity." Why don't we rewrite Schindler's List while we're at it to cover up the fact that Jews were persecuted and murdered by the millions because they were Jews?? This sanitizing of our literature to reflect some PC Utopian is inauthentic. It's Orwellian. It hides reality by insisting that our fiction not depict bad behavior which occurs in reality.

These concerns can't be overruled by worrying whether or not people will see depictions of bad behavior and then behave that way in reality. The purpose of fiction is not to control people's behavior. If that is your goal here, then you were being dishonest to say that this is merely a little game in your head. I think that seeing depictions of bad behavior can actually have the opposite effect: spread awareness, make it harder to deny or dismiss, and invoke people's empathy for a real issue. To pretend that women are some protected class that can't withstand being depicted in an unflattering or belittling way is more insulting, in my opinion, than the thing to which you're objecting.

I've read people pointing out more than once that your average white man, being in the group that is not often subject to racial profiling, doesn't generally get too upset about the fact that a bad guy happens to be white. After all, white people are everywhere. *waggle brows*

Or maybe we have thicker skin, and don't get our feelings hurt by how fictional characters are portrayed.

For every damsel in distress character, there is also a nerdy, effeminate guy who can't attract a woman. There are stereotypes for all sexes, all races, all ages. And there are actual, real people who fit every single one of these stereotypes. You're not going to get rid of those real people by sanitizing our fiction of these stereotypes. In fact, I think you merely perpetuate the negative judgments you ostensibly claim to dislike by agreeing that the "damsel in distress" stereotype is negative in the first place. What's wrong with a woman needing help from a man? Why is that so bad? I'm sure you've had help from men in your own life. A father? A teacher? There is nothing wrong with admitting that we all need each other and that we all need help sometimes.

If we remove these characters from our fiction, aren't we teaching girls that it's wrong to feel this way? Not every girl is a tom boy in an nontraditional role who kicks ass and defies expectation. Some girls are legitimately, happily, being conventional and girlie. By accepting the judgment that traditional roles are bad, we are merely praising one kind of girl at the expense of many others. And feminism starts to cannibalize itself, and become the very thing that it was fighting against.

ussusimiel, good points, again.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

I would just like to note that Donaldson is perhaps the most feminist of all fantasy writers, and even he cannot escape feminist criticism.

[Tefazipipo]

I'm not certain I should ever Quick Reply to anything. I'm rather surprised to find expressing a wish that women aren't being belittled or sneered at equates to whitewashing history "to cover up the fact that Jews were persecuted and murdered by the millions because they were Jews". To be specific, I was thinking of the TV series "House" and not "Mad Men". Straight fiction, not something trying to be true to its historical setting.

Back to the J front: Zara, you said "I thought you were complaining that Jeremiah was a boy, and wanting to take his gender away from him and give his narrative "glory" to a girl for the sake of mere substitution to a more "Tefa-approved" gender." I am complaining that Jeremiah was a boy, but I do not want to take his gender away. I like how U expressed it: "A good thought experiment would be to re-imagine the story with Geri instead of Jerry. How would the dynamics play out differently?"

To me, it's rather under the same category as a person wondering if Mohram might be gay because he's never paired up with a woman in the stories.

The reason behind my grumping about Jeremiah being a boy is just recent accumulation of confusion and anger over U.S. politics, the abortion debates, a woman getting thrown in jail for not trying to kill her abusive husband - oh that was for firing a gun at all, sorry. I talked with someone recently about her story where she was pairing up two male characters, one of which had fled into the army to escape an arranged marriage to a princess. Such tales usually mean the princess will prove to be either vapid or a horrible sadist. The writer swore her princess is nothing of the sort, though.

[ussusimiel]

ussusimiel, good points, again.

And people say there's no Brotherhood

u.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Tefazipipo, you're invited to unburden yourself politically in the 'Tank, although I realize that a woman needs the 'Tank like a fish needs a bicycle.

[Shaun das Schaf]

I would just like to note that Donaldson is perhaps the most feminist of all fantasy writers, and even he cannot escape feminist criticism.

Seriously? The most feminist of all fantasy writers? More feminist than Marge Piercy, Ursula Le Guin, Joanna Russ, Octavia Butler and Margaret Atwood, to name but a few?

That'll be why he made his ex-wife character in TCoTC - don't unspoil tags if you haven't read The Last Chronicles -

Spoiler

a jealous, unintelligent, impotent, cardboard cutout who needs to be 'rescued' via death-by-repetitive stabbing?

<--- Only one of the many parts of the Chronicles that stand out to this particular feminist as not being particularly feminist.

ETA: Didn't realize this had been moved to AATE forum, so that probably didn't need wrapping in black. Heck, I'll leave it just in case.