The Elohim have an important role in the Last Chronicles. All of their appearances however are of the haughty Infelice variety. Why did Donaldson choose her and only her to represent the Elohim in his Last Chronicles? She may be the most impressive member of that race in power and beauty but she hasn't been a very interesting character so far. What's more, she's very unsympathetic, not only to us but to the heroes she is trying to convince as well.
So why Infelice?
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Hashi Lebwohl
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hrm...her name does closely mean "an inappropriate act" or "an instance of misfortune" so that would be appropriate.
Although powerful, I have always viewed the Elohim as useless. I think this is because they are so self-absorbed and self-important and that this prevents them from being able to take action--since they cannot see past themselves they cannot see the end result of any action they may take.
Although powerful, I have always viewed the Elohim as useless. I think this is because they are so self-absorbed and self-important and that this prevents them from being able to take action--since they cannot see past themselves they cannot see the end result of any action they may take.
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Vraith
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Perhaps something as mundane as for us [and many of the inhabitants] she is the "face" of the elohim, and has been seen as the paragon of the kind...why bring in a new one in those circumstances?
OTOH, given SRD's ways, it would be unwise to ignore what Hashi said...and in the same vein, while Hashi's interpretation should be kept in mind [cuz of relation with infelicitious], felice by itself means basically "happy," and the prefix in- can mean in, towards, inside, and such...making "in/towards/inside happiness." Is our storyteller tricky enough to mean something like she [they, by extending a bit] WERE my version, but BECOMING Hashi's? [or, in the final reel, swapping again, so both work and always have, as a whole?] Maybe...just maybe. Or maybe that's digging and pushing a bit too far.
My last [and favorite] thought is this: Perhaps, she was Appointed to deal with this doom...much like Kasty was Appointed to the skurj for his prior acts/responsibilities.
OTOH, given SRD's ways, it would be unwise to ignore what Hashi said...and in the same vein, while Hashi's interpretation should be kept in mind [cuz of relation with infelicitious], felice by itself means basically "happy," and the prefix in- can mean in, towards, inside, and such...making "in/towards/inside happiness." Is our storyteller tricky enough to mean something like she [they, by extending a bit] WERE my version, but BECOMING Hashi's? [or, in the final reel, swapping again, so both work and always have, as a whole?] Maybe...just maybe. Or maybe that's digging and pushing a bit too far.
My last [and favorite] thought is this: Perhaps, she was Appointed to deal with this doom...much like Kasty was Appointed to the skurj for his prior acts/responsibilities.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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deer of the dawn
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I agree too... but what's Chant, dlbpharmd??dlbpharmd wrote:I agree with this.Vraith wrote:
My last [and favorite] thought is this: Perhaps, she was Appointed to deal with this doom...much like Kasty was Appointed to the skurj for his prior acts/responsibilities.
The Elohim described by the Ramen in ROTE sounded like Chant to me.
Infelice's agenda and flaws are evident. They work for the story. She seems almost pathetic, in spite of being so haughty, because she seems helplessly drawn into events (as would be consistent with Appointment), and not very happy about it.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria
ahhhh... if only all our creativity in wickedness could be fixed by "Corrupt a Wish." - Linna Heartlistener
ahhhh... if only all our creativity in wickedness could be fixed by "Corrupt a Wish." - Linna Heartlistener
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Vraith
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Chant was one of the other elo when the company went to elemesnedene...don't recall who Chant "escorted," but I THINK was the sorta grumpy/judgy one.deer of the dawn wrote: I agree too... but what's Chant, dlbpharmd??
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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wayfriend
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Although he doesn't directly appear, Kastenessen is another Elohim that figures prominently in the LCs.
Infelice is the supreme Elohim, it would make sense if she was Appointed to meet the supreme doom. But if she is Appointed, what will it be her task to achieve? Surely something more than throwing herself in front of the Worm.
Her actions before Covenant's resurrection are consistent with a wiley Elohim trying to dodge their Appointment. As are her actions at Muirwin Delenoth. So we have a clue that somehow Jeremiah healing is own mind is a requisite for her doom.
I wonder (as I have before) what Jeremiah can build with an Elohim?
Infelice is the supreme Elohim, it would make sense if she was Appointed to meet the supreme doom. But if she is Appointed, what will it be her task to achieve? Surely something more than throwing herself in front of the Worm.
Her actions before Covenant's resurrection are consistent with a wiley Elohim trying to dodge their Appointment. As are her actions at Muirwin Delenoth. So we have a clue that somehow Jeremiah healing is own mind is a requisite for her doom.
I wonder (as I have before) what Jeremiah can build with an Elohim?
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Right, Chant was the jerk that tried to talk Covenant out of his ring. He was seen with Daphne. (Whenever I think of those 2 Elohim, the original cover of TOT always comes to mind.)Vraith wrote:Chant was one of the other elo when the company went to elemesnedene...don't recall who Chant "escorted," but I THINK was the sorta grumpy/judgy one.deer of the dawn wrote: I agree too... but what's Chant, dlbpharmd??
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Hashi Lebwohl
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Vraith
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Exactly...she has a dual fear...that she personally will be lost to name and use, and also that all elo will/could be...and it all centers on Jerry...and they ALWAYS see only HORROR if things don't go exactly as they wish. They have also [as I've pointed out, and just like LF] ALWAYS been WRONG...the only true horror arises when they're wrong but no one else knows anything about it so can't do anything [Kasty prime example].wayfriend wrote:Although he doesn't directly appear, Kastenessen is another Elohim that figures prominently in the LCs.
Infelice is the supreme Elohim, it would make sense if she was Appointed to meet the supreme doom. But if she is Appointed, what will it be her task to achieve? Surely something more than throwing herself in front of the Worm.
Her actions before Covenant's resurrection are consistent with a wiley Elohim trying to dodge their Appointment. As are her actions at Muirwin Delenoth. So we have a clue that somehow Jeremiah healing is own mind is a requisite for her doom.
I wonder (as I have before) what Jeremiah can build with an Elohim?
I think she/they is/are wrong about the results of Jerry's power [not that what they fear couldn't happen...but that that is the least likely, yet only thing they give a flying f(*k about...cuz they're elohim.]
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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shadowbinding shoe
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I had a strong sense throughout AATE that Infelice wasn't only fearful and/or incensed with our heroes, she had some secret hope that they could save the day somehow. The way she always gives the group nuggets of information and warns them about what'll happen if they screw up has to mean something. With the central theme that unearned knowledge is worthless she can't just tell them what to do. They have to figure that out by themselves but she try to provide them with what help she can.
A little knowledge is still better than no knowledge.
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wayfriend
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The only thing that prevents me from believing the answer is so simple is that it leaves the Land in tact and going on as it always has. There have been too many hints that this will not be the case. (Then again, Donaldson, like Foul, seeks ever to mislead you.)Hashi Lebwohl wrote:A "pet carrier" for the Worm?wayfriend wrote:I wonder (as I have before) what Jeremiah can build with an Elohim?
Also, any proposed solution that doesn't wrap up the Lord Foul arc has to be considered incomplete.
Of course. We must never forget the reticense of the Elohim. The creator made them powerful, and so he also made them aloof and disdainful of participation. (And that is a good thing, no matter how annoying it makes them seem.) So they never act unless there is no other recourse, and they avoid their Appointments. It seems selfish to us, but it's the way that they are designed to be. All the alternatives lead to every other being on the Earth losing their freedom.shadowbinding shoe wrote:I had a strong sense throughout AATE that Infelice wasn't only fearful and/or incensed with our heroes, she had some secret hope that they could save the day somehow.
I don't doubt that, in the end, Infelice will be forced to serve. I daresay it will unleash a cheer or two!
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Hashi Lebwohl
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Why hasn't Kastenessen made an appearance yet, I wonder? I think the word used was "slipped" his Durance, so was he able to only partially escape his Appointment and this prevents him from being able to wander freely? As an Elohim, why would he rebel against his Appointment in the first place? No, they aren't entirely selfless so maybe his Appointment was against his will; I don't recall at this point.
Why would an Elohim be needed to restrict the skurj in the first place?
I was simply trying to be funny with the "pet carrier" joke.
Why would an Elohim be needed to restrict the skurj in the first place?
I was simply trying to be funny with the "pet carrier" joke.
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wayfriend
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Kastenessen "slipped" his Durance by exchanging some of his essense with that of the skurj. The Durance, built to hold Kastenessen, didn't recognize him as such any longer, and so he was able to pass it.
Kastenessen's job was to hold the skurj. The Durance's job was to hold Kastenessen, because he was a crazy Elohim. Thus, the Durance only indirectly held the skurj.
Yes, I imagine he will appear. Like Foul, he likes to work indirectly. He won't show his face until both his servants, Esmer and Roger, are neutralized. That's how I think it will happen, anyway.
The "pet carrier" thing isn't all humor. That's exactly what the Harrow was saying could be done: "With such forces at his command, [Jeremiah] will possess might sufficient to devise a gaol into which the Worm must enter, and from which it will be unable to emerge." I took your comment as such.
"Worm Hotel" would also have been acceptible.
Kastenessen's job was to hold the skurj. The Durance's job was to hold Kastenessen, because he was a crazy Elohim. Thus, the Durance only indirectly held the skurj.
Yes, I imagine he will appear. Like Foul, he likes to work indirectly. He won't show his face until both his servants, Esmer and Roger, are neutralized. That's how I think it will happen, anyway.
The "pet carrier" thing isn't all humor. That's exactly what the Harrow was saying could be done: "With such forces at his command, [Jeremiah] will possess might sufficient to devise a gaol into which the Worm must enter, and from which it will be unable to emerge." I took your comment as such.
"Worm Hotel" would also have been acceptible.
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Hashi Lebwohl
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Thank you. It has been a while since I read AATE and I have forgotten some of the details. Currently, I do not have the time to devote to rereading the novels so I have to work from memory alone...which can be frustrating at times.wayfriend wrote:Kastenessen "slipped" his Durance by exchanging some of his essense with that of the skurj. The Durance, built to hold Kastenessen, didn't recognize him as such any longer, and so he was able to pass it.
Kastenessen's job was to hold the skurj. The Durance's job was to hold Kastenessen, because he was a crazy Elohim. Thus, the Durance only indirectly held the skurj.
Yes, I imagine he will appear. Like Foul, he likes to work indirectly. He won't show his face until both his servants, Esmer and Roger, are neutralized. That's how I think it will happen, anyway.
The "pet carrier" thing isn't all humor. That's exactly what the Harrow was saying could be done: "With such forces at his command, [Jeremiah] will possess might sufficient to devise a gaol into which the Worm must enter, and from which it will be unable to emerge." I took your comment as such.
"Worm Hotel" would also have been acceptible.
Worm Hotel.
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deer of the dawn
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Ooohh, Witch on Wheels meets Mr Jones!!ninjaboy wrote:I strongly expect Infelice and Kastenessen to have a bit of a firey exchange before this is over, so I am looking forward to that.
Lock them in the pet carrier and see the fur fly!!Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria
ahhhh... if only all our creativity in wickedness could be fixed by "Corrupt a Wish." - Linna Heartlistener
ahhhh... if only all our creativity in wickedness could be fixed by "Corrupt a Wish." - Linna Heartlistener
Hearing the thought that Infelice is indeed an Appointed seems very logical: I can't believe I haven't thought that before now. Thanks for that.
Also, I have thought since the end of FR that Jeremiah will use an elohim (or perhaps many, depending on how many still live) to build that forbidding that Anele and the old Forestals kept talking about.
Every Appointed has been placed inside some sort of prison: Kas in the Durance, some elohim within the Colossus, Findail in the Staff...and Infelice in the Forbidding? Seems imminently plausible; but even if that is what happens, I'm sure that act will just be one among many to solve the Land's/Earth's crises.
Also, I have thought since the end of FR that Jeremiah will use an elohim (or perhaps many, depending on how many still live) to build that forbidding that Anele and the old Forestals kept talking about.
Every Appointed has been placed inside some sort of prison: Kas in the Durance, some elohim within the Colossus, Findail in the Staff...and Infelice in the Forbidding? Seems imminently plausible; but even if that is what happens, I'm sure that act will just be one among many to solve the Land's/Earth's crises.
"Verily, wisdom is like hunger. Perhaps it is a very fine thing--but who would willingly partake of it."
--Saltheart Foamfollower
"Latency--what is concealed--is the demonstrable presence of the future."
--Jean Gebser
--Saltheart Foamfollower
"Latency--what is concealed--is the demonstrable presence of the future."
--Jean Gebser
Agreed, good post.earthbrah wrote:
Every Appointed has been placed inside some sort of prison: Kas in the Durance, some elohim within the Colossus, Findail in the Staff...and Infelice in the Forbidding? Seems imminently plausible; but even if that is what happens, I'm sure that act will just be one among many to solve the Land's/Earth's crises.