The search for Richard III

[Iolanthe]

This report is actually from Australia!

www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-25/medieval ... rk/4222264

Nice picture of Richard; this is the one I have up on my office wall

[Vraith]

Weird...how do you get a real picture from a mythical place???

[Iolanthe]

Oh, ha ha!

[Damelon]

I read something about that the other day on the BBC's page. Led me to look up the Richard III Society. A long shot, but it would be interesting if they turned up something.

[sgt.null]

jimmy hoffa is buried under there.

[Iolanthe]

I read something about that the other day on the BBC's page. Led me to look up the Richard III Society. A long shot, but it would be interesting if they turned up something.

I'll own up, I'm a member of the Richard III Society. Have been for some time now. If you're interested enough, you might enjoy reading "Daughter of Time" by Josephine Tey.

[Damelon]

Now I'll own up. I'm not a member, but I've known of the existence of the Richard III Society for some time. The American branch has a good amount of links to historical texts and essays. I considered joining them the last time I looked up the site, a few months ago, though I put it on the back burner.

[Iolanthe]

Worth joining, Damelon. Four good newsletters and the much more scholastic "Ricardian" publication once a year. Lots of articles based on medieval sources - that's what I joined for.

More news on the dig.

www2.le.ac.uk/news/blog/2012/august/gre ... -28-august

[Damelon]

You're coming close to convincing me.

I'll have to take a look at it again and see if I can swing it.

[Iolanthe]

Oh, yes, do, Damelon. You'll find the reading very interesting, and it's not all about Richard, particularly the annual Ricardian.

[Iolanthe]

Large numbers of visitors to the site, and a third week of digging!

www2.le.ac.uk/news/blog/2012/september/ ... third-week

[Iolanthe]

Has Richard been found?

“We have exhumed one fully articulated skeleton and one set of disarticulated human remains. The disarticulated set of human remains was found in what is believed to be the Presbytery of the lost Church of the Grey Friars. These remains are female, and thus certainly not Richard III.

“The articulated skeleton was found in what is believed to be the Choir of the church.

“The articulated skeleton found in the Choir is of significant interest to us. Dr Jo Appleby has carried out a preliminary examination of the remains. There are five reasons for our interest:

1. The remains appear to be of an adult male.

2. The Choir is the area reported in the historical record as the burial place of King Richard III. John Rous, reports that Richard ”at last was buried in the choir of the Friars Minor at Leicester”.

3. The skeleton, on initial examination, appears to have suffered significant peri-mortem trauma to the skull which appears consistent with (although not certainly caused by) an injury received in battle. A bladed implement appears to have cleaved part of the rear of the skull.

4. A barbed iron arrowhead was found between vertebrae of the skeleton’s upper back.

5. The skeleton found in the Choir area has spinal abnormalities. We believe the individual would have had severe scoliosis – which is a form of spinal curvature. This would have made his right shoulder appear visibly higher than the left shoulder. This is consistent with contemporary accounts of Richard’s appearance. The skeleton does not have kyphosis – a different form of spinal curvature. The skeleton was not a hunchback and did not have a “withered arm”.

“Both sets of remains are now at an undisclosed location where further analysis is being undertaken.

“I need to be very frank. The University has always been clear that any remains would need to be subjected to rigorous laboratory analysis before we confirm the outcome of the search for Richard III.

“We are not saying today that we have found King Richard III. What we are saying is that the Search for Richard III has entered a new phase. Our focus is shifting from the archaeological excavation to laboratory analysis. This skeleton certainly has characteristics that warrant extensive further detailed examination.

www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/press-relea ... istory2019

[Avatar]

Hey, when did they decide he didn't have a withered arm? I suppose Shakespeare had a greater hold on my memory than I thought.

--A

[Iolanthe]

Av, I'm not taking the bait.

I'm presuming you've heard of Hollinshead, Polydore Vergil and John Morton/
Thomas More who were Shakespeare's sources?

[Avatar]

Hahaha, no bait, really.

Thomas More, sure. The others are not familiar.

I mean, I never really actively thought about it, but when RIII comes to mind, it's the two quotes that come with it. The one about the horse, of course, and the one about the withered sapling.

I never really wondered about if it was injured or deformed or to what extent, but if asked, I would have said it was withered.

--A

[Iolanthe]

Well, if you think about it a bit more, how on earth could Richard have fought so successfully in so many battles if he had a withered arm?

The withered arm comes from Thomas More who lived in John Morton's household as a child - he was 7 when Richard was killed. JM hated Richard. He was bishop of Ely and escaped to there after Buckingham's rebellion. One of the two (only two) rumours about the two princes being killed is in the Crowland Chronicle - Crowland is very close to Ely.

Polydore Vergil was Henry 7's "historian". A lot of what he wrote came from Morton/More.

Hollinshead, chronicler, was later but got most of his info from More and Vergil.

Shakespeare used Hollinshead as his source. Ergo withered arm, and all the rest. Shakespeare wrote a good tale, but it wasn't "history"!

That's why the Richard III Society exists - to win back Richard's reputation and to find out as much as possible about the period in which he lived.

[Avatar]

Well, if you're king, you don't have to swing a sword yourself. Of course it was fashionable in those days.

Thanks, good to know.

--A

[Iolanthe]

Whatever else comes from this dig, one thing is sure. Richard's character and deeds are being revalued. The papers are full of it - I've seen several articles on the internet questioning the perceived view of him. This is good.

[Damelon]

Whatever else comes from this dig, one thing is sure. Richard's character and deeds are being revalued. The papers are full of it - I've seen several articles on the internet questioning the perceived view of him. This is good.

Very good! He really was a victim of black propaganda. Have they done a dna sample yet? I saw they had lined up a fellow who was said to have been a relative. Or barring that, could they open the vault of his brother and take a sample from him.

[Iolanthe]

They say 12 weeks to do the DNA investigation and other studies on the skeleton. The chap's mother whose DNA they are using is descended from Richard's sister so they are using the Mitrocondrial DNA which is apparently more useful. Don't know much about this DNA testing, but experts seem to agree that they are doing the best thing.

There is no way that the exhumation of closer relatives will be allowed. The R III Soc has been trying for years to get a further investigation done on the bones of the supposed two children found at the tower in the 1600s. They are in a vase in Westminster Abbey. Someone has done a very detailed study on the Tower of London and reckons that the position and depth they were in makes the two skeletons over 1000 years old!!!