The search for Richard III

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Post by Damelon »

Iolanthe wrote:There is no way that the exhumation of closer relatives will be allowed.
I didn't think they would but I mentioned it because I thought I'd seen a story that they had taken a look at Edward I relatively recently. Though thinking on it, relatively recently could have been a couple of hundred years ago.
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That's crazy...why wouldn't they allow it?

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Post by Iolanthe »

It could be complicated, Av. We've been through two periods when monuments, tombs, crypts have been attacked. Firstly the reformation, which eventually resulted in R III ending up under a car park, and then the civil war (1640s and 1650s) when the puritans did a lot of damage to church monuments etc. There have been instances of burial places being opened only to find a heap of bones strewn about, which bones belong to who is anyone's guess. The nearest relatives to Richard are his parents and his elder brother Edmund who are buried at Fotheringhay in Northamptonshire, Richard's birthplace. But these tombs were also damaged during the reformation, and rebuilt in the 1570s. And of course those of his brothers Edward and George. Edward is in St George's Chapel, Windsor, not much chance of getting at that one. George is in Tewksbury Abbey. So there are lots of possibilities to obtain a Y chromosone sample, but little hope of doing so.
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So they won't allow it because the results might be questionable?

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Post by Iolanthe »

That's one reason. The other is the sanctity of the grave. Is the cause worthy enough to require exhumation? If there is another way, that will be attempted first, and perhaps last as well. DNA is not the only answer. Age of the bones, medical evidence etc. will also be investigated. The article below says Richard spent his early years at Fotheringhay. Yes, he was born there, but his early years were spent at Middleham Castle in Yorkshire under the tutelage of the Earl of Warwick (the Kingmaker) and where he first met and got to know well his wife Anne Neville. He also spent some time at Ludlow in Shropshire.

www.nytimes.com/2012/09/24/world/europe ... d=all&_r=0

The New York Times, no less.
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Post by Avatar »

Ah, the sanctity of the grave. :D

Still, I suppose that if my preference for cremation had been followed, there wouldn't be any bones to test even if they would allow it. :D

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Post by Iolanthe »

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/lifestyle/healt ... -1-5192836

Good article here, as we wait for the results.
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LEICESTER UNIVERSITY’S PRESS CONFERENCE 10AM 4 FEBRUARY 2013

The press conference will reveal the results of the investigations into the human remains found on the site of the Greyfriars.

There will not be a live stream on the university’s website, however the press conference will be recorded and put up on the site as soon as possible after its conclusion. Leicester University website: www.le.ac.uk/

The University will also be tweeting live from the conference:
twitter.com/uniofleicester

We understand that the BBC may be carrying a live stream via their website and news channel, subject to the news agenda for that day. BBC website: www.bbc.co.uk/news/
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Post by Damelon »

Ah, I was wondering this morning what became of that investigation. I'll know when I wake up Monday morning.
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Post by Iolanthe »

Yeah, it's all tying in with a programme about the Dig on channel 4 on Monday night!
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Post by Avatar »

So, what happened? :D

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Post by Iolanthe »

Hey, I'm not psychic. One hour and 2 minutes to the press conference! :D
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Post by Iolanthe »

Beyond reasonable doubt, the skeleton is that of Richard III. The DNA results were amazing - almost an exact match with both Michael Ibson (female line) and another descendant through the female line who wishes to remain anonymous (edited as incorrect first time). Incredible. I'm in tears!!! :lol:

Added later:
www.le.ac.uk/richardiii/

Most of the press conference was shown on the BBC News Chanel, but it was cut off before the end. I am waiting for a re-run to be added to the above website.

Phillipa Langley, of the Richard III Society, made a very moving speech. To put it in a nutshell, we searched for Richard, we found him, now we will honour him. No longer will Shakespeare's view of him dominate the historical record.
Last edited by Iolanthe on Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Vraith »

Now if we can just rehabilitate Macbeth, it'll be all good. [after all, that was all just propaganda for James and blood and circuses for the masses].
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Post by Avatar »

So that's it for the society huh? ;)

Hahaha, seriously, that's cool. :D

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Post by Damelon »

They did do a facial reconstruction, I see from the Richard III Socieity page.

He'll be buried next year in Leicester Cathedral. Is the Society assisting with that?
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Post by Iolanthe »

Yes. Apparently the Society have designed a tomb which has been accepted, and I think it is paying for it too. The membership numbers have gone up tremendously in the last few months! We should find out in the next Bulletin which is due soon.

The facial reconstruction is fantastic, so like his portraits. Did you manage to see the programme on Channel 4? It is on the web here: www.channel4.com/programmes/4od

There are still some Y chromosome DNA results to come. At the press conference the genealogist explained that he had to go up to Edward III then back down through John of Gaunt's line to find four or five male descendants to test with. That is not so difficult as there are hundreds of people about descended from the Beaufort line - including Henry VII of course, although thankfully he's not still about. :D
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Post by Damelon »

I haven't been able to see more than snippets of it from the BBC site. Apparently, the Channel 4 link does not work in the US. I imagine someone like PBS will pick it up for over here, it would make for an interesting NOVA episode, though it may take some time. Fascinating reading about it, though.
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Post by Iolanthe »

www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/press-relea ... trol-freak

This is an interesting study. May explain his reaction to Hastings who was taken out and executed on the spot. Don't be put off by the title!
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Richard III In Pitched Battle

London - More than five centuries after he went down fighting, England's medieval monarch Richard III is in the middle of another pitched battle - this time over where his newly discovered remains should be re-buried.

The Plantagenet Alliance, made up of Richard's distant descendants, has asked England's High Court to rule on plans to re-bury their ancestor's remains in Leicester, the city where they were found two years ago under a municipal car park.

The alliance says the Ministry of Justice was "unreasonable" to give permission to Leicester to bury him in its cathedral and argues the decision on the final resting place of the last Plantagenet king should have been a matter of public consultation.

"It matters what happens when you identify the only king since 1066 whose remains were not identified," the alliance's counsel Gerard Clarke told the court on Thursday.

"It should not be left to chance, whim, or commercial interest," he said in the first of two days of hearings on the complaint. The court is due to rule in several weeks.

The discovery of the skeleton of Richard, whose death effectively ended the Wars of the Roses, was one of the most remarkable English archaeological finds in recent times.

Leicester University archaeologists found the remains close to the site of the 1485 Battle of Bosworth where he was killed, the last English king to die in battle.

The Leicester city council has unveiled plans for a £4m visitors' centre around the find.

The Plantagenet Alliance wants to see him buried in York, his northern powerbase during his 26-month reign, and started its legal action last year.

Wars of the Roses

Leicester's plans for "a tourist attraction should not trump the process" of proper decision-making, Clarke said.

About 100 people took part in a march through York last year in support of the city's claims to the king.

The Wars of the Roses were named after the heraldic badges of the two rival dynasties: the white rose of the House of York and the red rose of Lancaster.

They were a dynastic struggle between rival Plantagenet factions that lasted for about 30 years until Richard's defeat by Henry Tudor, who took the throne as Henry VII.

Richard III is a controversial figure in English history, seen by some as a monster who murdered his own nephews to take the throne and by others as unfairly maligned by his enemies.

William Shakespeare, writing in the reign of Tudor Queen Elizabeth I, depicted him as a power-crazed hunchback.

- Reuters
I didn't know he was the last English king to die in battle.

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