The Tank has Gone to Hell

[sindatur]

This is really sad, it used to be, you could come to the Tank, and actually debate Political Issues, and it was even possible for legitimate, well constructed arguments to sway your opinion on matters. Heck, even Russmeister, as brazen as some of the things he said could be, you could still hold a debate with him about the issue.

This forum has become nothing but sniping one-up-manship and almost no actual debate. There doesn't even seem to be a desire to actually debate anymore, as almsot every debate post put forward (By a Conservative or a liberal poster) is met with cries of "slander" or pedantic word definition gymnastics, or some attack on someone's intelligence or sanity.

It's not just the usual suspects either, it's infecting over half of the regular posters, there's very few anymore who refrain from the personal crap and actually address the issue.

Some posters try to moderate it, and if they don't "Blindly" back up the guy who debates on their side of the fence, and ask that person to dial it down, and let them know they're in the wrong, that poster gets attacked (I've seen this happen several times in the last few weeks/months from both Conservative Posters that were told by other Conservatives they were in the wrong and should dial it down, as well as liberal posters told by liberal posters they were in the wrong and should dial it down).

I've been a member of this board for 9 years (And I believe a good 90% of my posts are probably in The Tank, hence why my posting rate has dropped off over the last year or two as the Tank sinks lower and lower), and through all the problems and the Reputation The Tank has had, this is the absolute lowest, it's become every bit as bad as any "Red Meat" liberal or Conservative Forum out there (You know the ones, where you're Satan if you don't agree with every single position, even if it's only 1 or 2 out of 1000 positions held by the board members)

I'd ask everyone to take a step back, hold hands and sing Kumbaya and make a new start, but, obviously we're way past that point

[Hashi Lebwohl]

This is the trend for all political discussion in the country these days. Politics was, in times past, divorced from personal feelings--it was simply politics. Now, though, politics is personal--disagreements are viewed as personal attacks, even (as you note) between people who might otherwise be in agreement.

Consider the RNC developments. Ron Paul is a life-long Republican who has more in common with Ronald Reagan than Karl Rove. Because of this, though, he and his supporters have essentially been booted out of the Republican Party because they aren't "conservative enough" or some such nonsense.

[Zarathustra]

I disagree!

The dictionary defines, "Hell," as ... "A place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering."

This is not even close to hell. It's more like debate purgatory. Boring, same old crap being debated over and over for eternity, while we wait around for things to change and get interesting.

Actually, I started out joking, but now I've convinced myself. This place used to be a lot more interesting. I used to post here more often. We used to have a dozen threads with active debate. Now it's one or two.

Do you all ever look at other debate forums? This is the tamest, lamest, most reasonable debate forum I've ever seen. I have no idea why people complain about it getting out of hand or going to hell. Try another board sometime. On the Dawkins board, you'll find atheists who actually make rape jokes to women (not always joking) and argue that pedophiles are okay. Dawkins himself recently wrote a parody letter about a real woman who complained about sexist treatment at an atheist convention. This place is TAME! Maybe you guys need to get out more and see how bad it is elsewhere.

I've said it before, but I think the problem here is that we have rules at all. I participate on another political forum where people can curse at each other and call each other whatever name they want, and it self-moderates. There's only so many times you can say, "fuck you," or "you're an absolute moron" before it's clear that you have nothing else to say. And then you have to get creative and actually back up your points.

If we didn't have the rules, we'd see what people are really like, and things would sort themselves out through community pressure, not authority figures.

[sindatur]

Z, yes, I've looked at "Red Meat" forums on both sides of the aisle, and debate is still possible on them, it's become impossible here

[Hashi Lebwohl]

If we didn't have the rules, we'd see what people are really like

People already see what I am really like. Most of the time I am correct in my views and when you are correct you need neither mince your words nor alter your position.

[[Syl]]

The invisible hand of the forum?! Typical conservative. Besides, I think people on both sides could testify to the effectiveness of moderating their respective behavior, much less the individuals.

Personally, I'm pretty big on rules during debate, but I'm old school like that. Since these things are far from structured, the rigid, stuffy formal debate rules probably wouldn't be very good, but I think guidelines are reasonable.

The problem, if there is one, is that this forum is old, largely with the same old players. Not to dismiss the strides we've all made in personal growth, political awareness, etc., but we tend, I think, to either tune out from boredom or get set in our ways.

Sure, I've waxed nostalgic for the 'good old days,' when we first started. We were just a bunch of fantasy nerds sitting down to talk current events. Then a bunch of upstarts showed up, disturbing the natural order. Some may remember this differently—the bad old days, when the liberals ruled the roost and stifled the truth of conservatism. Then as time went on, the Tank became a thing of itself with its own subset of denizens that hadn't read Donaldson or didn't venture out into the sunlight of the rest of KW (much like the GT forum does now). It evolved into something different, so now there's tension between the 'normal' tone at KW and the slightly more heated tone in the Tank. The Close has, at times, suffered similarly.

Now, me being the sage that I am, I foresaw this many years ago. I tried suggesting ways to tag posts for what kind of debate, if any, they wanted and general guidelines to keep everyone happy. But nobody ever listens to me. I whined, I complained, I bitched... dropped out, returned, dabbled... now I mostly seem to get involved in this meta stuff. I'm a fossil, and I know it.

So, maybe we need a renewal. I think both Z and Sin are right, depending on your frame of reference. Can we put the past behind us, start Hile Troy's Think Tank 2.0? Maybe instead of rules we could set up a contract (the unspoken social contract codified). You want to debate, with all the rights and responsibilities, dangers and rewards, that that entails, cool. Otherwise, please enjoy the rest of the Watch. Conservatives are all about contracts, right (no worries, liberals, there won't be manditory binding arbitration... probably)? It's not like the private entity of KW owes us a political debate forum, right?

Another option is to just disband the Tank. Move this back to GD so it can soak up the atmosphere there. It's not like we moved these discussions because they polluted GD, but that it provided clarity and organization. The traffic isn't as high here as it was in the day, so I don't think that would be a problem (and would alleviate some of the inanity—which I know some people love—of the general discourse in GD). The problem with that is, I think, is that it doesn't really address the problem... or if there's not a problem, people's concerns. Grudges could smoulder then reflare and scorch outside this compartmentalized forum. *shrug*

[sgt.null]

really it seems most of the problems can be traced back to one source. and it seems many have tried to engage this poster in debate... and failed.

[Zarathustra]

It seems this same exact thread has been created at least two times before now. Seems every couple of years, we have this same conversation.

Purgatory.

[[Syl]]

Who does that sound like to me... Denise Q. Good... no, that's not quite right?

Actually, I'd say it's described pretty much all of us, at one point or another, to one person or another. Pointing fingers, three back at you (one at God), and all that.

[sgt.null]

It seems this same exact thread has been created at least two times before now. Seems every couple of years, we have this same conversation.

Purgatory.

Sysyphus

seems more like it...

[Worm of Despite]

I'm really unhappy with the Tank. I wish it could be a constructive place, and as long as I can remember dating back to the early part of last decade it never really was.

I suggest it be disbanded, thus consolidating the forum and drawing us toward more positive discussion.

People here simply can't control themselves and do not uphold the values of Kevin's Watch or the rules they agreed to when registering.

Please disband it.

[Zarathustra]

Yes, let's commit a Ritual of Desecration on the Tank, because we view it to have an element of Despite. Good solution!

You can't get rid of Despite. You can fight, surrender, or ... well we won't know the 3rd solution until next year, but destroying something we love because it isn't perfect sure the hell isn't it.

So you've read The Chronicles, and that's your answer?

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Maybe we could have a form of the old Athenian ostracism. Too many black stones in your cyberbag and poof you're gone for two weeks. Think of it as the stick companion to the "Good Post" carrot. What you post can win laurels or result in a flogging.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Yes, let's commit a Ritual of Desecration on the Tank, because we view it to have an element of Despite. Good solution!

You can't get rid of Despite. You can fight, surrender, or ... well we won't know the 3rd solution until next year, but destroying something we love because it isn't perfect sure the hell isn't it.

So you've read The Chronicles, and that's your answer?

A clever argument indeed.

[Worm of Despite]

Yes, let's commit a Ritual of Desecration on the Tank, because we view it to have an element of Despite. Good solution!

You can't get rid of Despite. You can fight, surrender, or ... well we won't know the 3rd solution until next year, but destroying something we love because it isn't perfect sure the hell isn't it.

So you've read The Chronicles, and that's your answer?

This is what I'm talking about. I just calmly stated the Think-Tank has reached a dead-end and I'm attacked and given a "roll eyes" emoticon.

The fact is some people here thrive on the negative emotions and I think they're writhing now that a boot is being placed over their fire.

The fact is: there is no going back. There is no Think-Tank 2.0. If we just "go back to the way things are" there is no solution just going back to the status quo and this will repeat again. The Think-Tank has reached a point where the only solution is an invasive one, not ham-fisted appeasement.

I really don't see how you can "love" the Think-Tank Z, when the only solutions for this place is just a "hope and pray" it goes back to normal for a while, ban someone indefinitely when they eventually and inevitably go ape-shit, or simply disband the forum and carry on.

It's just not a part of Kevin's Watch in any spiritual manner and belongs on a forum full of sunlight fearing sociopaths and assholes.

Does Kevin's Watch need a place where people fear to click on or wonder if their replies are torn apart? Is that Kevin's Watch?

I have a solution: make the forum HIDDEN to the rest of the Watch and the people who use it have to request from the Admin to see it or enter a password, similar to The Writer's Circle.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

I have no idea who you are but I consider your arguments specious. By ignoring the substance of Z's post and treating it like a personal attack, you have displayed the very behavior that is destroying this forum. Having a constructive discussion begins by getting down off your high horse.

[Worm of Despite]

I have no idea who you are but I consider your arguments specious. By ignoring the substance of Z's post and treating it like a personal attack, you have displayed the very behavior that is destroying this forum. Having a constructive discussion begins by getting down off your high horse.

I have a solution: make the forum HIDDEN to the rest of the Watch and the people who use it have to request from the Admin to see it or enter a password, similar to The Writer's Circle.

I am offering a solution right there my friend. And am I not allowed to vent that I am frustrated with this forum and its incongruence with the feel of the Watch?

Again; now I’m being asked to come off a high-horse? Only in this forum people. You all have been ratcheted super-sensitive by years of yelling and debates gone south.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

I didn't see that edit prior to posting, yes that could be a solution, even if it is one I do not particularly like. And yes, when you lump 'Tankers in with assholes and degenerates, yes I'd say that's a bit condescending. There are problems that need to be grappled with, and I agree that they are severe; but the solution doesn't begin by demonizing a whole class of people. I think a few prudent steps could get things back on track. There's no need for a scorched earth policy.

[Worm of Despite]

I didn't see that edit prior to posting, yes that could be a solution, even if it is one I do not particularly like. And yes, when you lump 'Tankers in with assholes and degenerates, yes I'd say that's a bit condescending. There are problems that need to be grappled with, and I agree that they are severe; but the solution doesn't begin by demonizing a whole class of people.

Yes; as a writer I continually edit.

I think my solution keeps the Tank, keeps the people, but lets them have their own space separate from the Watch and no one can be responsible for what happens to it but the people involved. It's pretty prudent to me and not "scorched earth", which would be no Tank at all.

Because seriously--the rest of the solutions: more rules, banning, etc. sounds very weak to me.

Plus: if the Think-Tank is hidden and the members improve their conduct it could perhaps be unhidden.

And my comment on assholes was more directed to what it turns the posters into temporarily much like a hateful Hulk who was once a normal Watcher, rather than who they are at heart or our sum total.

It's also more an indictment on the general feel of the Tank as compared to what the rest of the Watch stands for.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean to convey by the lol icon, but I don't especially care for it. My response to your original post of course cannot anticipate subsequent edits, so if you are attempting to play gotcha on that basis it seems like trolling to me. But maybe I'm being hypersensitive.