Are The Ravers She-Bane's Children?

[Orlion]

I never thought the Creator threw Foul into the mix of creation. That would be like building a car with a time bomb in it. Does not make sense. The impression I always got was that Foul was in the world, messing about when the Creator decided to set the Arch of Time. Once this happened, he realized he left an insane megalomania in his creation but could not get him out without destroying the creation.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I can't go for that...it works against my grand theory.

But, without getting into THAT thing...LF wasn't necessary, cuz the "flaw" is in the structure...the Arch of Time, Time itself, is the necessary flaw: it guarantees death/decay/ending. [also life/growth/beginning].
The Worm is a flaw.
The shadow on the hearts of the Elohim is a flaw.
These are internal.
LF isn't internal or flaw, he's external and a threat.
The difference between dying and murder.
Between a stroke and a hammer to the skull.

Again, I point to the Vorlon maxim: your side, my side, and the truth.

The Arch as part of the world is perfect--its perfection allows it to contain everything and supports/is supported by Law. The Worm as an entity is perfect--it has a very simple job do be done when a specific set of circumstances occur otherwise its default is "sleep".
I have always thought that the Elohim shadow was either Fouls' subtle influence on the world, the self-awareness that their claims of superiority and perfection are false--they can lie to anyone else but not themselves, or a combination of both.

I agree that Foul is external; however, I have always had the opinion that the Creator put him in the world as its necessary flaw for its overall perfection. In short, I agree with Kasreyn. It is almost a shame that he was so corrupt that he had to die; I suspect there were other secrets of lore that he could have shared.

We are led to believe that he somehow carried She (or the being who became She) into the world when he was put there, either by force or by trickery, but this almost doesn't make sense--why would he willingly go near to where she lingers when he is the maker of her torment? I can only presume that he doesn't fear her.

I can readily see the Ravers being her "offspring", though--She only consumes and they can only destroy, which is a form of consumption.

[I'm Murrin]

I never thought the Creator threw Foul into the mix of creation. That would be like building a car with a time bomb in it. Does not make sense. The impression I always got was that Foul was in the world, messing about when the Creator decided to set the Arch of Time. Once this happened, he realized he left an insane megalomania in his creation but could not get him out without destroying the creation.

I thought we were told more than once that when the Creator noticed Foul messing with his work, he got angry, threw him down and locked the door behind him, and only then realised his mistake.

Anyhow, I don't think Foul is necessary for the world to be perfect. The earth can be a perfect creation because it contains the seed of its own destruction: the Worm.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The Worm isn't a flaw. Although its designated purpose is "break the Arch of Time", it was put into the world specifically for that purpose. The few beings who came to The Land from outside, though, are flaws; this includes Covenant, Linden, Jeremiah, Foul, She, Roger, and Joan...but not Hile Troy, who managed to repurpose himself as a natural part of the world.

Of all the characters SRD has placed in The Land, Hile Troy is the most unique and the most mysterious. Apparently he is from our world but no other explanation how he could possibly be related to Covenant in any way is given, we are never given any indication that Foul had anything to say to or about him, and apparently he did not have the emotional difficulties or severity that the others possess. I suppose he deserves his own thread, but a handful of them probably already exist (if I would look for them). Ignore my derail.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

Right. A few, there are likely more somewhere:
Hile Troy, Dualism, and other Sundry Items!
Hile Troy in the "Real" World
Hile Troy not what he claimed to be thread?

As for Lord Foul being the necessary flaw - at least doesn't sound like that was the intent, and the Creator most likely knew of the flaw needed, so it has to be something else he placed, maybe many more minor things. Doesn't preclude the possibility LF may be a necessary flaw anyway, but above what the Creator intended. Or may become one, that could be in the Last Dark, like with Linden and the Sunbane - not destroying, changing to what is needed.

[Zarathustra]

The Worm is most certainly a flaw. Just like leprosy and entropy. That's not to say it isn't natural or isn't supposed to be that way. It's a recognition of mortality and the fact that All Things End in a temporal existence. The Worm should be there. And it should destroy the world, at some point. We can be sad when it happens (i.e. it's a flaw, and it sucks), but we shouldn't deny it or despise it.

[shadowbinding shoe]

My impression is that the flaw is Free Will. Time is meaningless if there is no uncertainty in the worl.

[wayfriend]

I was going by Covenant's memories of Foul's history at the start of AATE:

From there [the time Foul he masqueraded as Lord A Jeroth], Covenant's recollection involuntarily retreated to the many centuries when Lord Foul had inhabited the Lower Land, unknown to the Council, or to any of the peoples who preceded the Lord; unrecognized by anyone except the Forestals who preserved the truncated awareness of the One Forest. During that long age, the Despiser was hampered by the Colossus of the Fall and by the fierce strength of the Forestals. Therefore he had hidden himself even from the Ravers, until the first waning of the Interdict freed them to do his bidding. Instead he bred other servants among the twisted denizens of Sarangrave Flat and the Great Swamp. and built Foul's Creche, and spawned his armies, and readied his powers - and quested unceasingly for the most useful of the banes buried deep under Mount Thunder.

That's interesting.

I can reconcile the fact that there was a time where Foul hid himself from the Ravers, and then later there was a time when he gathered them to his service. The creation of his Creche in Ridjeck Thome marked the time of this transition.

However, I am stumped by this reference to the Colossus hampering Lord Foul. Because the first story we have of the Colossus is this:

"But it was not Despite which the Colossus resisted," Mhoram resumed when his song was done. "Despite was the bane of men. It came with them into the Land from the cold anguish of the north, and from the hungry kingdom of the south. No, the Colossus of the Fall forbade another foe - three tree- and soil-hating brothers who were old in the Spoiled Plains before Lord Foul first cast his shadow there.

And then there is time of Kevin, when Foul walked about the Upper Land, and the Colossus had not yet fully waned.

Perhaps Foul was "hampered", not because he was himself blocked from going to the Upper Land (where he didn't even want to go anyway), but because all of his minions were. But I think that this text you found indicates that Foul was "hampered" in his use of the Ravers - that the Ravers usefulness was hindered by the Colossus, since they weren't very useful to him when they were interdicted. So he didn't even bother with them until the "first waning of the Interdict". Then they became useful, and so then he took up with them.

He also said that in order to create "perfection" the creator needs to put a flaw into his work else it would fail.

We have to consider the source here. That was Kasreyn's philosophy, and as such it was filtered through his world view, which was that of a power-hungry megalomaniac. It need not be true.

For example, we do have it that life must contain within it death, and the seeds of it's own destruction. Kasreyn, being who he is - someone who desires infinite life, might consider this seed "a flaw", where another might say that "life and death are too intimately intergrown to be severed from each other", and another might say that "there is a time and a season for every purpose under heaven".

Hence the Worm could indeed be a "flaw", of you view it as an obstacle to the "perfect work" of infinite existence, and don't realize that such existence is inherently impossible.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

We have to consider the source here. That was Kasreyn's philosophy, and as such it was filtered through his world view, which was that of a power-hungry megalomaniac. It need not be true.

For example, we do have it that life must contain within it death, and the seeds of it's own destruction. Kasreyn, being who he is - someone who desires infinite life, might consider this seed "a flaw", where another might say that "life and death are too intimately intergrown to be severed from each other", and another might say that "there is a time and a season for every purpose under heaven".

Hence the Worm could indeed be a "flaw", of you view it as an obstacle to the "perfect work" of infinite existence, and don't realize that such existence is inherently impossible.

You make an excellent point--Kasreyn isn't necessarily a bastion of mental stability.

Perhaps the Worm is simply the Creator hedging his bets. He cannot reach through the Arch so he puts in a method by which the Arch can be broken from within, allowing him to reach inside and change or fix things before he puts a new Arch back in place.

[Vraith]

The Worm is most certainly a flaw. Just like leprosy and entropy. That's not to say it isn't natural or isn't supposed to be that way. It's a recognition of mortality and the fact that All Things End in a temporal existence. The Worm should be there. And it should destroy the world, at some point. We can be sad when it happens (i.e. it's a flaw, and it sucks), but we shouldn't deny it or despise it.

Yes, this was my basic thinking when I mentioned the Worm as a flaw. It is the physical embodiment of a flaw.
The shadow of the Elohim is the mental/spiritual expression of flaw.
But the AoT is the metaphysically necessary flaw. It is the mechanism/means by which the Creator establishes the differences that make a difference between his realm and the world. It enables growth/change, is imperfect, must be imperfect, by definition. Flawed in itself or it couldn't be destroyed, at least not from within, and outsiders could never have crossed over.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The other thing to consider is this: since people are able to translate from this world to The Land (do we have a name for that world or do we only ever refer to The Land?) without breaking the Arch then our world must exist inside the Arch, as well. If this is true, then breaking the Arch there will break the Arch here and this world is doomed, as well. If this is not true, then the Arch must be "semi-permeable" to beings not on par with the Creator--it should theoretically be possible to translate from The Land to this world. Foul was partially able to do this via burnt sacrifice here but we don't know what other rules or situations have to occur here to facilitate this.

Would we even want to translate Foul to this world? On the one hand that could be really bad, given his nature and the apparent extent of his abilities. On the other hand, if he is limited and mortal here he could be killed for real and stay dead.

[shadowbinding shoe]

The other thing to consider is this: since people are able to translate from this world to The Land (do we have a name for that world or do we only ever refer to The Land?) without breaking the Arch then our world must exist inside the Arch, as well. If this is true, then breaking the Arch there will break the Arch here and this world is doomed, as well. If this is not true, then the Arch must be "semi-permeable" to beings not on par with the Creator--it should theoretically be possible to translate from The Land to this world. Foul was partially able to do this via burnt sacrifice here but we don't know what other rules or situations have to occur here to facilitate this.

Would we even want to translate Foul to this world? On the one hand that could be really bad, given his nature and the apparent extent of his abilities. On the other hand, if he is limited and mortal here he could be killed for real and stay dead.

Translating beings from the Land's world to ours wouldn't work the same way as the translations we saw so far. Both Foul's manifestation in the cult members and flame and Covenant's and Linden's translations show that only spirits come and go to our world. Covenant's and Linden's bodies remain behind and Foul is only an influence in the minds of the cult members.

This fits with the Land being populated by ideals.

I'm not sure how much difference Foul's spirit can make in our world. Would a little more spiritual evil even be noticeable with all the evil already in place?

[wayfriend]

Yes, in the GI Donaldson had stated that people in the Land could not go to Covenant's world. It was categorically impossible, and a bit abhorrent to the author as well.

In the Platonic sense, the Land is *more* real than Covenant's "real world." So characters from Covenant's "real world" can expand into the Land, but characters from the Land cannot shrink into Covenant's "real world".

(09/08/2004)

So the Creator cannot go to the Land, and people from the Land cannot go to the "real" world -- it strikes me that the real world is in the opposite direction to the Land than the world where the Creator abides.

Not in a simplistic "inside/outside" sense. But in that Platonic sense. The Creator cannot shrink into the Land - the Creator inhabits a world that is more real than the Land, which is in turn more real than Covenant's world.

Which only leaves one to wonder how the Creator got into Covenant's world ...

[High Lord Tolkien]

But I think that this text you found indicates that Foul was "hampered" in his use of the Ravers - that the Ravers usefulness was hindered by the Colossus, since they weren't very useful to him when they were interdicted. So he didn't even bother with them until the "first waning of the Interdict". Then they became useful, and so then he took up with them.

No very useful in the Upper Land maybe.
They were very effective outside influencing the Viles and Demondim and Berek's King.

There's a thread out there where we all discussed what raw power Foul actually had/has.
I can't find it though.
It was interesting.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

This one? Just what can Foul do?

...
Not in a simplistic "inside/outside" sense. But in that Platonic sense. The Creator cannot shrink into the Land - the Creator inhabits a world that is more real than the Land, which is in turn more real than Covenant's world.

Which only leaves one to wonder how the Creator got into Covenant's world ...

Possibly in a way similar to how LF was able to manifest himself in the fire. Like an extension of power, just more similar to human in appearance. For instance, someone 10sm tall can go to a place like ours, but someone from here won't go to his home whole, won't fit. But can stick a finger in - may be tricky to operate in such a way.

[wayfriend]

Yes, Effaeldm, the notion that the old man was an avatar or an agent of the Creator and not the Creator himself has been theorized. Maybe an infinite being who could create universes and wrestle Lord Foul to the ground might want to walk around main street with a beggar's bowl. But an ochre robe? No way.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

Not exactly what I meant - it's possible that's not him, but looks unlikely to me. I think that's more like some of him - like in the finger analogy. Pretty much the same with LF - only a small portion of his presence was in Covenant's world, though apparently with more trouble, likely because of his power diminished where he actually is. And why, maybe he likes the color, infinite beings may have various tastes

[shadowbinding shoe]

Yes, Effaeldm, the notion that the old man was an avatar or an agent of the Creator and not the Creator himself has been theorized. Maybe an infinite being who could create universes and wrestle Lord Foul to the ground might want to walk around main street with a beggar's bowl. But an ochre robe? No way.

If Spirit-based translations are what happens when someone translates from an ideal world to a mundane one, then maybe the old man in the ochre robe is not really the creator but simply a real beggar that the Creator possessed temporarily or nudged into interacting with Covenant and Linden.

Or maybe there was never any man in ochre robe in their world. He was simply a vision that Linden and Covenant got from the Creator when he touched their spirits. Similarly, there was nothing supernatural about the fire the cult members built during the 2nd chronicle translation. It was just a visual aid for the vision/possession Foul was making.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

Possession doesn't feel like something the Creator will do, regardless of if he's capable of that.

A very good thought about a vision - that could explain a lot and fit with all the rules.

[Orlion]

Possession doesn't feel like something the Creator will do, regardless of if he's capable of that.

A very good thought about a vision - that could explain a lot and fit with all the rules.

Could be the hobo is dead. It isn't a violation because the body is just an empty husk. Like wearing a coat you find on the side of a highway...

So the hobo/Creator is a zombie.