Who She is (an argument)

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

Premise 1. She is eternal. For Her, all Her time is united.
Premise 2. She recognizes the women She devours in some way. They seem to recognize Her.
Conjecture: She is not only all the women She already has devoured, but also in some way all those whom She will devour in the future. Therefore, Her true name would be the names of all women who have been or will be devoured by Her. Telling Her this would convert Her awareness back into an eternal state, a state that Time cannot very well contain. So it is for Her as it was for Linden: "In this instance her mind cannot be distinguished from the Arch" (not the exact quote, I think, but close enough; and it's from FR, somewhere in the Theomach's dialogue).

Prediction: Linden's reaction to "Diassomer Mininderain" was like her reaction to the Sunbane. What did Linden have to do to overcome the Sunbane? Enmesh herself in its essence. Fight it from the inside. If Linden is the one to deal with Her, then maybe plunging herself into that hell will be part of the way she does this. Remember, Linden hungers for power at times, as She does (else Esmer would not have heeded Covenant's warning against letting Her get the ring). Power to ravage entire worlds, or in Linden's case remake them, if at times arrogantly, in her own image. But Linden can learn to shed her dire obsession with power, the last vestige, I think perhaps, of what she didn't learn the entire lesson of last time she sojourned in the Land. Even her self-Despiteful sense of failure is a reflection of the fact that she feels powerless to stop the Despiser.

As Covenant has shown, it is possible to reconcile might and humility. Have you ever noticed that the Creator calls Covenant his son back at the end of The Power That Preserves? Now this could just be how old men sometimes indiscriminately refer to younger men as "son" (as in, "Son, what're you doin'?"), but I doubt SRD would use the word in that sense. Now SRD himself wrote the dedication for FR, I think it is, to a son, "in whom I am well pleased" or something is what SRD says, which is a paraquote of the New Testament where it says that the First Person of the Trinity referred to Jesus as, "My beloved son, in Whom I am well pleased."

Liand, a shepherd figure after a fashion, even refers to Covenant's resurrection as an incarnation. Not a reincarnation. Which former word is just the word for the Son of God-cum-Man, even.

Covenant had eternal sight, and then he underwent what in Christian theology is denoted kenosis, or an emptying of his eternal essence into a finite present. It's no coincidence, perhaps, that Linden compares the Timewarden's mind to a fractured grail.

Covenant was right at the end of White Gold Wielder: he had no reason to use power any more. But he's right to use power in the Last Chronicles, too. But that's because his power now is totally different in nature from the corruptive kind. It's the power of guilt to redeem itself. Unlike Earthpower or Vile-light or any number of other forms of magic, even white gold's fire, it can't be perverted because it is by definition the power of undoing perversion.

Linden has to understand that she is to comport herself so that "in my weakness is my strength made perfect" or whatever it says in some epistle or something in the New Testament. She has to learn to reconcile might and humility like Covenant did. Morinmoss redeemed the covenant; the covenant needs to be mediated by a man with leprosy (Covenant says he needs to be a leper), a form of weakness that the Creator's adopted son turned into strength during the triumph over Corruption at the end of The Power That Preserves.

The only outcome of the normal exercise of power is entropy, the depletion of the concentration of energy. Now there is a kind of martial arts known as aikido, and it is based decidedly on an almost literal application of the Taoist conception of wu wei to fighting. There's at least a chance SRD knows of these concepts, or at least has a personal sense of them, supposing them to be objectively real. A power based on weakness is a paradox (wild magic as a law unto itself). The Law is the Land's Creator's self-discipline. "Eternity is powerless," or something, Covenant talks like that one time, I remember. So maybe the solution to entropy is to embrace a kind of eternal kenotic power, some metaphysical transcendence. Find a way for the Land to be real and surreal at the same time.

Linden has to believe that she won't die in the end. She's living her entire death in the death of the Land on the premise that she's dead in the real world. She doesn't stop to consider the significance of her wounds being healed on transition to the Land. She thinks she's dead, she decides the fate of the Land's Earth on the basis of this deep assumption that she has on that very important level basically already failed. No wonder all her choices conduce to ruin: she assumes this deep powerlessness inside herself, and doesn't try to embrace it. She doesn't reconcile herself with her inner Despiser, doesn't learn to yield like a crucifixion under the Despiser's rage channeled like the eternal sun through the white gold ring. So the Land ends up a reflection of her inner state where she believes she's dead: overwhelmed by forces that defy her will so completely that even her most innocent lover's and mother's passions can be subverted to iniquity.

But if she saves the Land somehow, the Creator can maybe, just maybe save her back on Earth, and Jeremiah there, too, just as he saved Covenant. Or at least Jeremiah (that would be pretty sweet).

And maybe "Diassomer Mininderain" was the name in the Land of a woman from our Earth who the man in the ochre robe knew? Maybe Linden can return "Diassomer Mininderain" to Her home (just imagine that that woman is in a catatonic schizophrenic state in the "real world"). To contradict my earlier suggestion, maybe Her true name is the name She had on our Earth.

[dlbpharmd]

In AATE, there are several references to who She is - she's Joan, Diassomer Mininderain, the Auriference, the mortal lover of Kastenessen, and most recently, she is Elena.

I don't think it's possible to know who She really is at this point. I suspect we may never know her true name, but if SRD chooses to reveal it, the name will be something we've never heard before.

[Vraith]

I don't think it's possible to know who She really is at this point. I suspect we may never know her true name, but if SRD chooses to reveal it, the name will be something we've never heard before.

Yea, we don't know "who" she is specifically [we know names of facets/pieces/incorporations]...but we do know "what" [more accurately have hints that delineate a narrow range of "whatness"] She is.

I suspect we will know her true Name...but I agree, we haven't heard it before.

I actually expect that the "consumed" identities will be redeemed [Elena's ghost will be important for this] through events that restore Her "True Name" AND her "True Purpose/Nature." [Simplistic version: "Love Conquers All"]

[SGuilfoyle1966]

I don't know that I would be particularly satisfied if in the definitive end of a multi-part story, the main bad character or at least antagonist will turn out to be someone new. It is kind of time to resolve things, not start new things up.

[dlbpharmd]

I don't know that I would be particularly satisfied if in the definitive end of a multi-part story, the main bad character or at least antagonist will turn out to be someone new. It is kind of time to resolve things, not start new things up.

I agree. The more retconning of the Land's history, the less I like the story.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

I must be an even worse writer than I thought... I'm not supposed to be arguing for any of the following:

• 1. A new antagonist.
  
  2. More retconning.
  
  3. The revelation of Her true name in all its particulars.

I'm supposed to say:

• 1. Her true name is the sum of all the names of those She consumes.
  
  2. For Her to know all these names would be the equivalent of Her knowledge encompassing the future as well as the present and past. This is why She must not be told Her true name: the same reason why Linden's awareness of certain facts had to be restricted when she traveled deep into the past. In effect, She is like (I stress the word like) a self-aware caesure, only She isn't conscious of everyone who ends up inside Her, at least not until normal time catches up with Her feeding. But if She knew all of whom She would feed on, Her consciousness would return to an eternal state. We know from Covenant's resurrection that the Arch of Time cannot contain such an eternity, so for Her to become eternal again would damage the Arch by putting too much internal pressure on it.
  
  3. Even if She originated in our world, She would not be a new character, because we already know Her as Diassomer Mininderain. My suggestion is that, just as Covenant and Linden have names or titles in the Land, so does She (the name or title given to Her by people like the Clave), and this is why it is correct to refer to Her as Diassomer Mininderain, although this is not Her true name.

[earthbrah]

Ok wow, Mighara, whatever yer smokin', I want some...

But I do think you're on to something when you talk about Linden possibly needing to fight SHE from the inside. It's been a couple years since I read AATE, but I recall thinking that Linden was a prime candidate for being devoured by this entity precisely because she seems so lost in her perceived weakness and despair (which might indeed be because of her belief that she's already dead in her world). She will need to turn her granite heart into a grand edifice of water (not unlike how she made the Staff). There is also love in the world.

I also believe you're on to something when you talk about the reason for why SHE's name must not be revealed to Her. An eternal essence emptied into a finite present...another paradox, one that is very fitting at this stage in this story. At any rate, it's the best explanation I've yet heard for why Her name should not be spoken or revealed to Her.

I find so many character, plot and thematic threads in this story so many of which seem to interconnect that my mind just swirls with awe and possibility...

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

Ok wow, Mighara, whatever yer smokin', I want some...

ZOMG, haha, I will admit I was insanely high when I wrote the OP.

She will need to turn her granite heart into a grand edifice of water (not unlike how she made the Staff).

This image would certainly make sense of Linden's fate being written in water.

I also believe you're on to something when you talk about the reason for why SHE's name must not be revealed to Her. An eternal essence emptied into a finite present...another paradox, one that is very fitting at this stage in this story. At any rate, it's the best explanation I've yet heard for why Her name should not be spoken or revealed to Her.

Don't thank me, thank SRD: he confirms the general idea in the GI somewhere. I was just trying to figure out the details.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

If this is the culmination of all the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, SHE has to be someone we've met before.
I vote for Osondrea. She was just a bit of a witch, if you catch my drift.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

If this is the culmination of all the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, SHE has to be someone we've met before.
I vote for Osondrea. She was just a bit of a witch, if you catch my drift.

But Osondrea would have to have lived during the time of the Auriference and Emereau Vrai for that to work out, wouldn't it?

[dlbpharmd]

Osondrea was a High Lord and a holder of the SoL. We have no information that she was ever betrayed by a man. No way she will be She.

[Zarathustra]

As I've said before, I think it's Joan. Apotheosized. She was already in the Land, "asleep" while Joan was crazy--kind of like how Jeremiah was both in the Land and the real world while in his catatonic state. But now that Joan has been killed in the Land, she's like Hile Troy/Caer Caveral. She couldn't be told her name while Joan was still alive, because that would collapse the paradox of her "dual" presence in the Land. But now that Joan is dead/apotheosized, she can be told who she is and Covenant can finally have the confrontation which has been brewing in the background of this series since the beginning.

We have another thread about this around here somewhere ...

[SGuilfoyle1966]

I was just joking.
Osondrea wasn't the nicest Lord we've met.

[wayfriend]

I think it might be tempting to assume that if Covenant's got Foul, Linden gets She.

But I think that the lack of any sort of important conflict between Linden and She makes that unlikely. Also:

Hence the thematic development from the first to the second "Chronicles." In the first, Covenant opposes his--dare I say it?--Dark Side and wins (an expensive--and temporary--victory). In the second, he surrenders to his Dark Side, and thereby gains the power to contain it (another expensive--and temporary--victory). "The Last Chronicles" will explore this theme further as Covenant's quest to become whole continues. (Linden Avery is also on a quest to become whole, but hers takes an entirely different form.)

Of course, "different form" can mean anything. But I am tending to believe that Linden's "quest to become whole" isn't also about confronting her personal demon incarnated as an immortal being trapped in the Earth.

As for Joan, the text of the story has thrown Joan's name in the bag with many other women whose anguish She "represents". There's no hit that she's more significant than any other. Nor did She respond to Covenant brandishing his wedding ring in a way that I would think Joan might have. So I'm just not feeling it - not a logical analysis, but there you are.

I guess I just don't think that She is related to anyone the way that Foul is related to Covenant. If anything, I think that both She and Foul are aspects of Covenent - Foul his self-loathing for being a leper, and She his self-loathing for betraying his marriage.

[Zarathustra]

As for Joan, the text of the story has thrown Joan's name in the bag with many other women whose anguish She "represents". There's no hit that she's more significant than any other.

She's more significant because this is where the story began, it was the beginning of Covenant learning self-despite from her rejection. And she alone is the most like Shebane in her own self-despite disguised as having been "wronged" by her former lover. No other single character in the book more closely matches this particular personality trait.

And there is this:

She embraced revulsion because she understood it. The fangs in her mind approved. Offers of forgiveness only pushed her farther into the Lost Deep of her defining despair, her essential and necessary loathing.

That's about as explicit as you can get.

From my post on this subject in the other thread She thread:

The whole section from 557-560 is an amazing summary of Joan's life. That's a detailed, step-by-step explanation of how you create a Bane. It starts in contentment and happiness. Then moves to sudden revulsion at Tom's leprosy. "His illness was a form of treachery because it destroyed her contentment." Her illusion of a perfect life was gone. She could have still been happy with him if she'd been brave enough to accept life without perfection, but she could not. "[T]he shock of his condition taught her that she lacked any kind of courage." Even leaving him took everything she had. "She was doing her utmost when she abandoned him ... putting as much distance as she could manage between herself and her cowardice."


Once she left, it was really too late for her. ".. she had already begun the process of selling her soul." Therapy didn't help because it "asked her to confront the beating heart of her revulsion; and so it pushed her deeper." Religion was no better because "they insisted upon contrition. Another form of abandonment: the surrender of her will and abhorrence to their forgiving God." ... "[S]he could not distinguish between contrition and self-abasement, between acknowledgment and blame. And she could not surrender her horror. It alone justified her."


So she could not accept the blame for leaving Covenant. She couldn't face it/overcome it in therapy, nor let it go by forgiving herself (because that first required admitting it was her fault). So she needed to cling to her horror in order to justify her abandonment. She could think of herself as blameless in leaving Covenant as long as she could insist that the horror of his disease justified it. And that's why she went deeper and deeper into the Lost Deep of her defining despair. She embraced revulsion and horror because it absolved her of guilt.

And then the Community of Retribution gave her a way to legitimize this plunge into the Deep. At the Community, "... she felt that she had found recognition at last." "She reveled in promises of punishment. They made sense to her." Note: not forgiveness, but punishment.

"[S]he was given a kind of peace. Not the peace of forgiveness: the Community of Retribution did not forgive. Rather she received the peace of universal condemnation. Within the Community, she was blameworthy only because the whole world deserved denunciation, and she was part of the world. In every other way--so the believers and their priests taught her--she was innocent because nothing was her fault. She simply existed: she had not done anything, caused anything, inflicted anything. And the world needed retribution."

This is simply amazing. It is so horrific, and yet so familiar. In order to deal with her own horror at life containing mortality and disease (Tom), and her own weakness in not being able to face it (her guilt in leaving Tom), she condemns the whole world in order to make herself "innocent." [Warning: comparison to Christianity ahead.] And this is exactly what our own religions do: condemn the whole world in order to carve out a path of innocence for ourselves. The world itself has Fallen into its own Lost Deep. Only by turning away from the world, toward "Heavenly" things, can we escape the guilt inherent in the world itself. This is also very much like the Clave myth of a-Jeroth and the creation of the Land's world as a place of punishment.

So she has her own Christ figure in her religion of Retribution: Covenant. She needed to exact the cost of her suffering from him. Only his agony, destruction for his crimes, could redeem her.

But she was betrayed again. Covenant's death only led to his spirit flourishing in the Arch of Time, where he gained strength, love, and reverence. He negated her retribution. And so "... she had fallen too far to be retrieved."

Now the question is: what has happened to her once she died in the Land? We know that people who die in the Land don't ever leave it. Troy. Covenant. They are all transformed into something "larger."

Get ready for the metaphor to become literal!

We must also consider that Joan's story isn't finished. She hasn't been resolved. Since Joan is dead (after having been killed in the Land after dying in her real world), then the only possible way for her to resolve her story is to have some some kind of "apotheosized" existence in the Land, like Covenant and Hile Troy.

Also, we must consider why Donaldson said that if She learned her name, it would be the equivalent of breaking the Arch of Time. That has to be a very special name. It's a name that condenses the metaphorical status that She enjoys right now--standing for lots of different women--into one literal woman. And I believe that woman must come from the real world, in order for this collapse of the metaphor-to-literal to threaten the Arch. That leaves only Linden and Joan. While Linden might have a role to play (such as entering She in order to save Joan, similar to Elena), it doesn't really make sense for Linden to be She, since she never developed this sense of blame toward her former lover for having "wronged" her.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

Wow. Very deep, and astute.

[Simanent]

If this is the culmination of all the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, SHE has to be someone we've met before.
I vote for Osondrea. She was just a bit of a witch, if you catch my drift.

A woman, betrayed by her lover.

LENA?

[dlbpharmd]

If this is the culmination of all the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, SHE has to be someone we've met before.
I vote for Osondrea. She was just a bit of a witch, if you catch my drift.

A woman, betrayed by her lover.

LENA?

I have no doubt that SHE would love to consume Lena just as Elena was consumed, but I doubt that She is Lena.

[Simanent]

A woman, betrayed by her lover.

LENA?[/quote]

I have no doubt that SHE would love to consume Lena just as Elena was consumed, but I doubt that She is Lena.[/quote]

It doesn't make a lot of sense. I just thought nothing had been said about Lena for a long time. Did she appear in Andelain lately?

[dlbpharmd]

No, she was not among the Dead in Andelain.