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Post by Cambo »

Menolly wrote:Baby steps, Cambo. Allowing priests to baptize children of single mothers is a step in the right direction, nu?
It is, I guess. I'm something of a curmudgeon when it comes to Catholicism :lol:
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Post by Savor Dam »

Rome was not built in a day; nor will it be changed so quickly...but by small steps such as Menolly cites, the change will take place. Perhaps (nay, probably) not all that you might want, Cambo, but change nevertheless. The Church will come to more resemble what many of its adherents already have come to believe.

Do not mistake what Sarge was saying. He and Julie are truly Catholics...but when I met them at Elohimfest two years ago, I can attest that they are people of love and acceptance. We had breakfast in downtown Albuquerque during a Rainbow Pride parade, and they enjoyed and cheered the proceedings. Sarge and Julie met Menolly and me and could clearly see how we feel about each other...much like they feel about each other. They assumed us to be a couple. Though I knew I was taking a risk that might doom a budding friendship, I looked them in the eye and told them the truth. Bless them, they accepted it. We had a grand time the rest of the weekend...and when it came time for them to leave after we had all waded in the Soulsease, we really missed them. They know what love is.

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Post by Vraith »

Not to offend people. And at the risk of falling into a cliche, "many of my best friends are Catholic." I know there is some distance between the "Church," and the faithful.
But I'm with Cambo.
How freaking small are the steps folk have to accept?
400 years to say "hey, yea, the earth goes around the sun" [which was known by educated folk 1000 years before they harassed the man].
Their official position is that evolution exists and doesn't conflict...
But on the ground, where schools are, they often back up the "creation science" folk...oddly enough, not in actual Jesuit/Catholic schools that I know of, only in public ones. At least in NY, the private Catholic schools give a damn good education...They don't sneer at science, and they don't ban "Harry Potter," or books that include 4-letter words.
50 years ago, their own INTERNAL folk said "leave contraception alone"...but officially, they said "fuck that" and are still trying to push not only their own people around...but Gov'ts that don't belong to them.
At this pace, by the time they're walking instead of crawling, we'll be just like Neanderthal's. Dead primitive species.

He seems to have the commitment to actual people, the personality and charisma to move things...but Same Sex adoption is child abuse? Not a baby step. A baby falling down and banging its head.
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Post by Menolly »

I've looked up some reports, and it appears what then Cardinal Bergoglio said was that adoption by gay couples was a discrimination against children, which others interpreted to mean abuse. He is a follower of the basics tenants of the church, and he believes G-d's plan is for children to have both a male and female presence in their upbringing.
“Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. ... At stake are the lives of many children who'll be discriminated against in being deprived of the human growth that God wanted to be given through a father and a mother.”
Believing children are being discriminated against, and believing they are being abused is a big difference. I disagree with his belief regarding discrimination, but I still think it is a far more liberal view than what the heads of the church has stated in the past.

Perhaps as he is exposed to more international viewpoints, he may reconsider. I admit doubt of this happening, but there is always the possibility. Let there be hope...
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Post by Cambo »

Doesn't deprivation count as a form of abuse? Anyway, what he literally said is bad enough.

Interesting how he says the fight for gay marriage is "a simple political battle...against the will of God." That oh-so-nonchalant pairing of worldly politics and divine will is what to me makes the mindset of the Vatican so dangerous. Whenever religion and politics mix, it's bad news for everyone, and let's face it, the Vatican has a ton of political power. I'd be more complacent about "baby steps" if these views were espoused by some small town nobodies. But when an incredibly rich and influential institution espouses them, they have terribly harmful effects. The Church's long standing crusade against contraception makes a real contribution to the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. And of course backing the discrimination against gay people sets their struggle for equality back.

Since perhaps I didn't before, these criticisms are aimed at both the institution of the Catholic Church, and the statements of Pope Francis. Not and Catholic worshipers as a whole. No need to leap to Sarge's defense, SD; I wasn't about to throw any stones his way.
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Post by StevieG »

I've gotta say I'm more in the Cambo/Vraith camp - maybe it's more of a general thought process regarding the Church. I don't think Pope Francis is going to change much, but we'll see. One issue that I am interested in hearing his views on is how the church will deal with allegations of child abuse by priests.

In other news, according to Wiki, Pope Francis:

- opposes abortion and euthanasia, describing the pro-choice movement as a "culture of death".
- is open to the use of contraception in order to prevent disease, but not as a birth control measure.
- is against pre-marital sex.
- opposes same sex marriage and adoption of children by same sex couples as mentioned above.

People are describing him as a humble man, who does not go for pomp and ceremony. He does appear to be a conservative. I don't foresee any major changes in the next decade or so regarding sexual equality. I don't think much will change.
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Post by Avatar »

Pretty much agree...nothing is really going to change.

I seem to recall that as cardinal, he once forced some diocese to release their records regarding sexual abuse allegations, so there is probably at least that going for him.

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Post by I'm Murrin »

StevieG wrote:People are describing him as a humble man, who does not go for pomp and ceremony. He does appear to be a conservative. I don't foresee any major changes in the next decade or so regarding sexual equality. I don't think much will change.
I don't expect him to last a decade as pope. He's in his late 70s and only has one lung. A lot of people were expecting a young pope this time; maybe after Francis the Cardinals will have to follow through on that.
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Post by Menolly »

Again, baby steps/transitions. Francis may not install changes, but perhaps he will be a stepping stone to some slight ones in our lifetimes. I honestly believe John Paul II may have been an instigator of slightly more liberal attitudes, set back some with Benedict. But ever so slowly the hierarchy may be accepting of change as more youthful cardinals enter the fray.

While Gorbechev brought about the end of socialism in the Soviet Union, he started slowly at the start of his appointment. I don't expect Francis to make as sweeping a change within the Roman Catholic church as Gorbechev did in the USSR, but perhaps he will instill enough of a change to set in motion future adjustments.

Let us have hope...
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Post by I'm Murrin »

Why should the Catholic Chruch be held to lower standards than the rest of the world's institutions, Menolly? The rest of the western world is decades ahead of them already.

Saying they can take it slowly, and that baby steps are good, is excusing them keeping themselves in the dark ages for as long as they possibly can.

(And how can he be a stepping stone to changes if he makes none?)
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Post by Orlion »

I'm Murrin wrote:Why should the Catholic Chruch be held to lower standards than the rest of the world's institutions, Menolly? The rest of the western world is decades ahead of them already.

Saying they can take it slowly, and that baby steps are good, is excusing them keeping themselves in the dark ages for as long as they possibly can.

(And how can he be a stepping stone to changes if he makes none?)
If you want to alienate what is arguably one of the most powerful political institutions in the world, be my guest. All that you will do is antagonize them and set back progress in areas where they can persuade the populace.

Baby steps may not be 'ideal', but it is the most pragmatic step and is the most likely to produce the desired result in the shortest time period.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

I'm only saying that if people - Catholics included - just keep allowing the church to stay the same on the basis of "well, they'll come around eventually", then it'll just take all the longer.
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Post by Orlion »

I'm Murrin wrote:I'm only saying that if people - Catholics included - just keep allowing the church to stay the same on the basis of "well, they'll come around eventually", then it'll just take all the longer.
Ah, ok.
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Post by Cambo »

Menolly wrote:Again, baby steps/transitions. Francis may not install changes, but perhaps he will be a stepping stone to some slight ones in our lifetimes. I honestly believe John Paul II may have been an instigator of slightly more liberal attitudes, set back some with Benedict. But ever so slowly the hierarchy may be accepting of change as more youthful cardinals enter the fray.

While Gorbechev brought about the end of socialism in the Soviet Union, he started slowly at the start of his appointment. I don't expect Francis to make as sweeping a change within the Roman Catholic church as Gorbechev did in the USSR, but perhaps he will instill enough of a change to set in motion future adjustments.

Let us have hope...
I'm with Murrin on this one, Menolly. The very small changes you've pointed to are positive, yes. But does that mean we can't criticize the much larger faults of the Church? Because they allowed some babies to have water splashed on their heads that couldn't before, does that mean they get a free pass on bigotry for an unspecified amount of time?

While baby steps may be pragmatically all that's likely to happen. I'm simply not prepared to pretend they are enough.
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Post by Avatar »

I'm Murrin wrote:I'm only saying that if people - Catholics included - just keep allowing the church to stay the same on the basis of "well, they'll come around eventually", then it'll just take all the longer.
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Post by deer of the dawn »

I have hope about the guy because the world can use another Francis about now.

You people talk about "lower standards". Who decided whose standards were above those of others? The Catholic Church holds to a set of standards that THEY decide on, not the rest of the world. Who are you to say your standards are better than theirs?

Recently it has come up in my teaching about tolerance for gay people. I told my students how proud I was of them because they really get that judging people is actually worse than the sins they judge others for; that gay people are not in some special category of sin apart from others. Yet at the same time they understand that it is immoral, according to Christian teaching, and this is clearly spelled out in the Bible. So the Catholic Church will likely NEVER condone homosexuality, no matter how the world may pressure them. And I respect them for that-- it certainly isn't the popular stance.

What's popular isn't always right; what's right isn't always popular. Kudos to them for not changing although what was once popular is no longer.

I saw the new Pope's stance described as that homosexuals are to be accepted and respected; but that same-sex marriage is not acceptable. I know this may garner me the alienation of others, but I feel the same. I have a family member who recently came out by introducing his boyfriend. Since we had him figured out years ago, this did not affect our love for him; and his friend was immediately accepted by the family. But if they invited us to their "marriage" I would tell them that I honor their lifetime commitment, but it's not marriage. I would stand beside them through anything, but their relationship will never be marriage.

Truth doesn't change because the world wants it to.

The world's agenda for the Catholic Church simply doesn't apply. They bow to what they feel is the highest standard of all.

Btw I am not Catholic, so perhaps I speak out of turn. My stance on some things differs greatly from theirs, but on this issue it seems we walk in fellowship.
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Post by Orlion »

deer of the dawn wrote:I have hope about the guy because the world can use another Francis about now.

You people talk about "lower standards". Who decided whose standards were above those of others? The Catholic Church holds to a set of standards that THEY decide on, not the rest of the world. Who are you to say your standards are better than theirs?
On the whole, it would be difficult. Specifically? If both our standards claim to help eleviate suffering... at least in our personal actions... then I can criticize based on that. I could say, for example, the proscription against birth control increases unnecessary suffering by spreading disease and adding additional burden to environments that can not support that population.

Just an example, not a position since in this same example the Church (or maybe the current pope) encourage the use of birth control to prevent the spread of STDs.
Recently it has come up in my teaching about tolerance for gay people. I told my students how proud I was of them because they really get that judging people is actually worse than the sins they judge others for; that gay people are not in some special category of sin apart from others. Yet at the same time they understand that it is immoral, according to Christian teaching, and this is clearly spelled out in the Bible. So the Catholic Church will likely NEVER condone homosexuality, no matter how the world may pressure them. And I respect them for that-- it certainly isn't the popular stance.
The various Christian religions have always cheery-picked from the Bible. Just look at divorce. Though most denominations would discourage it, I think few would flat out condemn it as adultery like Jesus did in the Gospels. And there's all the various controversial sayings of Paul (one of which some sects interpret as being that you, deer, should not teach doctrine in church... which you, I, and your church would find absurd).

The issue is further complicated in that the Bible is not the ultimate authority in the Catholic Church. The Vatican is.
Truth doesn't change because the world wants it to.

Truth is not necessarily objective, even if it is truth. What is bad/immoral for us could be good/moral in another culture. In a multi-cultural society, that means that one's cultural norms has as much claim to 'truth' as another. Which is why most cultural societies turn into secular ones, not because they are trying to destroy all cultures, but because they are trying to preserve all cultures....within reason.
The world's agenda for the Catholic Church simply doesn't apply. They bow to what they feel is the highest standard of all.


And this is as good a time to say the following: the idea of doing something in the name of tolerance is crap. Within the tolerance crowd you will have views just as intolerant as elsewhere. It's a tool that even religions use (as your example shows: you tolerate the existence of gay people, even if you find them sinful and unclean). Ultimately, some other ideal has to hold the top spot be it "God", Equality, Liberty, etc.
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Post by Avatar »

Read something a bit disturbing about the new Pope...it's an opinion piece, and it's pretty clearly biased against the church, but the bit I'm talking about has nothing to do with that:
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There’s a wonderful picture that dates back to the 1970s – not a particularly cheerful time in the history of Argentina – of rotund Father Jorge Maria Bergoglio walking alongside lean, dapper, mass murdering General Jorge Rafael Videla. The stroll itself is hardly proof of collusion – it merely confirms the fact that the Catholic Church and the Argentinian military regime were, occasionally, on strolling terms. But when one pairs the image with journalist Horacio Verbitsky’s devastating takedown, El Silencio, which is proof of collusion, we are able to understand the make of the man who now inhabits the Vatican.

El Silencio is an island in the River Plate, on which the Jesuit Archbishop of Buenos Aires kept a holiday home—never a more perfectly named location for a member of the Catholic gerontocracy, for whom silence is the ultimate calling. Therein did the good archbishop assist the Argentinian navy in hiding political prisoners from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission.

There are all sorts of excuses for this behaviour, and the new pope has intoned them all in his husky, man-of-the-people Argentinian Spanish. The Church did what it could to protect the flock, and lo, did the regime not kill the bishop Enrique Angelelli, a great friend of Argentina’s poor, by running his car off the road? Ah, but Angelelli was exactly the sort of man who gets his car run off the road. He was not the sort of man to stroll with murderers. Or end up on the throne.

“The most shaming thing for the church,” wrote Hugh O’ Shaughnessy back in January 2011, “is that in such circumstances Bergoglio’s name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to choose the successor of John Paul II. What scandal would have ensued if the first pope ever to be elected from the continent of America has been revealed as an accessory to murder and false imprisonment.”


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Post by Menolly »

I'm Murrin wrote:(And how can he be a stepping stone to changes if he makes none?)
...and the baby steps of change have begun. :hearts:
Pope washes women's feet in break with church law wrote:ROME (AP) — In his most significant break with tradition yet, Pope Francis washed and kissed the feet of two young women at a juvenile detention center — a surprising departure from church rules that restrict the Holy Thursday ritual to men.

No pope has ever washed the feet of a woman before, and Francis' gesture sparked a debate among some conservatives and liturgical purists, who lamented he had set a "questionable example." Liberals welcomed the move as a sign of greater inclusiveness in the church.

Speaking to the young offenders, including Muslims and Orthodox Christians, Francis said that Jesus washed the feet of his disciples on the eve of his crucifixion in a gesture of love and service.

"This is a symbol, it is a sign. Washing your feet means I am at your service," Francis told the group, aged 14 to 21, at the Casal del Marmo detention facility in Rome.

"Help one another. This is what Jesus teaches us," the pope said. "This is what I do. And I do it with my heart. I do this with my heart because it is my duty. As a priest and bishop, I must be at your service."

In a video released by the Vatican, the 76-year-old Francis was shown kneeling on the stone floor as he poured water from a silver chalice over the feet of a dozen youths: black, white, male, female, even feet with tattoos. Then, after drying each one with a cotton towel, he bent over and kissed it.

Previous popes carried out the Holy Thursday rite in Rome's grand St. John Lateran basilica, choosing 12 priests to represent the 12 apostles whose feet Christ washed during the Last Supper before his crucifixion.

Before he became pope, as archbishop of Buenos Aires, the former Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio celebrated the ritual foot-washing in jails, hospitals or hospices — part of his ministry to the poorest and most marginalized of society. He often involved women. Photographs show him washing the feet of a woman holding her newborn child in her arms.

That Francis would include women in his inaugural Holy Thursday Mass as pope was remarkable, however, given that current liturgical rules exclude women.

Canon lawyer Edward Peters, who is an adviser to the Holy See's top court, noted in a blog that the Congregation for Divine Worship sent a letter to bishops in 1988 making clear that "the washing of the feet of chosen men ... represents the service and charity of Christ, who came 'not to be served, but to serve.'"

While bishops have successfully petitioned Rome over the years for an exemption to allow women to participate, the rules on the issue are clear, Peters said.

"By disregarding his own law in this matter, Francis violates, of course, no divine directive," Peters wrote. "What he does do, I fear, is set a questionable example."

The Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said he didn't want to wade into a canonical dispute over the matter. However, he noted that in a "grand solemn celebration" of the rite, only men are included because Christ washed the feet of his 12 apostles, all of whom were male.

"Here, the rite was for a small, unique community made up also of women," Lombardi wrote in an email. "Excluding the girls would have been inopportune in light of the simple aim of communicating a message of love to all, in a group that certainly didn't include experts on liturgical rules."

Others on the more liberal side of the debate welcomed the example Francis set.

"The pope's washing the feet of women is hugely significant because including women in this part of the Holy Thursday Mass has been frowned on — and even banned — in some dioceses," said the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and author of "The Jesuit Guide."

"It shows the all-embracing love of Christ, who ministered to all he met: man or woman, slave or free, Jew or Gentile."

For some, restricting the rite to men is in line with the church's restriction on ordaining women priests. Church teaching holds that only men should be ordained because Christ's apostles were male.

"This is about the ordination of women, not about their feet," wrote the Rev. John Zuhlsdorf, a traditionalist blogger. Liberals "only care about the washing of the feet of women, because ultimately they want women to do the washing."

Still, Francis has made clear he doesn't favor ordaining women. In his 2011 book, "On Heaven and Earth," then-Cardinal Bergoglio said there were solid theological reasons why the priesthood was reserved to men: "Because Jesus was a man."

On this Holy Thursday, however, Francis had a simple message for the young inmates, whom he greeted one-by-one after the Mass, giving each an Easter egg.

"Don't lose hope," Francis said. "Understand? With hope you can always go on."

One young man then asked why he had come to visit them.

Francis responded that it was to "help me to be humble, as a bishop should be."

The gesture, he said, came "from my heart. Things from the heart don't have an explanation."
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Pope / CST / Migrants

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+JMJ+

Pope slams treatment of migrants as 2 Italians become saints
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Pope Francis leaves at he end of a mass he celebrated for the canonization of two new saints, Giovanni Battista Scalabrini and Artemide Zatti, in St. Peter’s Square at the Vatican, Sunday, Oct. 9, 2022. (Credit: Gregorio Borgia/AP)


Pope Francis has denounced Europe's treatment of migrants as “disgusting, sinful and criminal.�


ROME — Pope Francis on Sunday denounced Europe’s indifference toward migrants risking their lives to cross the Mediterranean Sea as he elevated to sainthood an Italian bishop and Italian-born missionary whose work and life paths illustrated the difficulties faced by 19th Century Italian emigrants.

Francis departed from prepared remarks to slam Europe’s treatment of migrants as “disgusting, sinful and criminal.� He noted that people from outside the continent are often left to die during perilous sea crossings or pushed back to Libya, where they wind up in camps he referred to as “lager,� the German word referring to Nazi concentration camps.

He also recalled the plight of Ukrainians fleeing war, which he said “causes us great suffering.�

“The exclusion of migrants is scandalous,’’ Francis said, generating applause from the faithful gathered in St. Peter’s Square for the canonizations of Don Giovanni Battista Scalabrini, an Italian bishop who founded an order to help Italian emigrants in 1887, and Artedime Zatti, an Italian who emigrated in 1897 to Argentina and dedicated his life as a lay-worker there to helping the sick.

“Indeed, the situation of migrants is criminal. They are left to die in front of us, making the Mediterranean the largest cemetery in the world. The situation of migrants is disgusting, sinful, criminal. Not to open the doors to those who are in need. No, we exclude them, we send them away to lager, where they are exploited and sold as slaves.�

He urged the faithful to consider the treatment of migrants, asking: ‘’Do we welcome them as brothers, or do we exploit them?�

The pontiff said the two new saints “remind us of the importance or walking together.�

Francis said Scalabrani showed “great vision,’’ by looking forward “to a world and a Church without barriers, where no one was a foreigner.� And the pontiff called Zatti “a living example of gratitude� who devoted his life to serving others after being cured of tuberculosis.

[…]

[Scalabrani] died in 1905 in Piacenza, where he was bishop, and was beatified in 1997 by St. John Paul II. Pope Francis dispensed with the canonization requirement of Scalabrini having a miracle attributed to him after his beatification.

[…]

Zatti died in 1951, and was beatified in 2002. Paving the way for canonization, Francis signed the decree recognizing Zatti’s intercession in the healing of a man in the Philippines who had suffered a brain bleed.


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