variol son wrote:SRD's use of the word simony aside, the idea that the Masters have lost the generosity of spirit seen in previous Haruchai, and especially the Bloodguard, was very much an "of course" moment.
Yes, but they haven't listened to anybody about this issue. They always defend it. Now one of their fellows is upbraiding them and so they have to pay more attention.
variol son wrote:The way it's come together in my mind over the past few hours, by becoming the Bloodguard, the Haruchai sought to repay Kevin by preserving everything he loved. It was an act by which they hoped to prove themselves equal to him, while at the same time I don't really believe it had anything to do with indebtedness, or settling scores as such.
By becoming Masters of the Land however, they sought to obey Covenant by suppressing everything he loved about the Land, and their attempts to prove themselves equal to him come across kind of, "if you shout me a coffee then I have to shout you one of exactly the same value so that neither of us ever owes the other". More about rules and precepts and rigid score-keeping than generosity or gratefulness.
And I love it when Brinn gave them a dressing down and then turned away - they've heard it all before (as have we) from Covenant and Linden and Stave, and I thought it more powerful that he made his point and then disregarded them.
The "Masters" mindset is still too strong in them, but eventually they'll come around.
variol son wrote:
SRD wrote:You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
But yeah, just some thoughts so far.
In what sense were the Masters obeying Covenant?
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variol son wrote:SRD's use of the word simony aside, the idea that the Masters have lost the generosity of spirit seen in previous Haruchai, and especially the Bloodguard, was very much an "of course" moment.
The way it's come together in my mind over the past few hours, by becoming the Bloodguard, the Haruchai sought to repay Kevin by preserving everything he loved. It was an act by which they hoped to prove themselves equal to him, while at the same time I don't really believe it had anything to do with indebtedness, or settling scores as such.
By becoming Masters of the Land however, they sought to obey Covenant by suppressing everything he loved about the Land, and their attempts to prove themselves equal to him come across kind of, "if you shout me a coffee then I have to shout you one of exactly the same value so that neither of us ever owes the other". More about rules and precepts and rigid score-keeping than generosity or gratefulness.
And I love it when Brinn gave them a dressing down and then turned away - they've heard it all before (as have we) from Covenant and Linden and Stave, and I thought it more powerful that he made his point and then disregarded them.
SRD wrote:You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
But yeah, just some thoughts so far.
If the Masters won't listen to Brinn, how then will they listen to Pahni and Bhapa? I predict some sort of challenge, similar to what Marhtiir did in FR, where Pahni and Bhapa will call the Ranhyn and a great host of horses will answer, thereby reaching the Haruchai in a way no one else has been able to achieve.
Yeah, you figure only the ak-haru could administer the long called for haruchai spanking. I'm looking forward to Bhapa and Pahni's miracle and seeing what shape it will take.
it wasn't the reaction I expected from the Masters. They actually took a defensive stance towards Brinn like they were going to fight him. It's was weird. I was expecting more of a revelation or a reversal after Brinn told them they were doing it wrong.
Maybe that's coming later......
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:In what sense were the Masters obeying Covenant?
I don't have my copy of Runes of the Earth with me, but I seem to remember that their Mastery evolved from their following Covenant's instruction/request to look after Revelstone/the Land.
High Lord Tolkien wrote:it wasn't the reaction I expected from the Masters. They actually took a defensive stance towards Brinn like they were going to fight him. It's was weird. I was expecting more of a revelation or a reversal after Brinn told them they were doing it wrong.
Maybe that's coming later......
It wasn't what I was expecting either, but I think it might end up being better if they come to an acceptance in their own time like Galt did, rather than undergoing a sudden transformation.
I also suspect that the Humbled and the Voice of the Masters won't both find redemption (i.e. that one or the other will end up dying without coming to understand where they went wrong in terms of their Mastery).
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
(I know next to nothing about catholic rites and sin-concepts, it seems. On the other hand, the idea of selling religious ranks can be applied to any religion embracing some kind of earthly hierarchy.)
After long ages of slumber, the Worm now draws nigh unto the Land, seeking its final sustenance. In natural consequence, the One Tree expires to its roots.
There goes the theories about a return trip to the One Tree.
I just had a thought about this. I wouldn't rule out a return trip to the site of the One Tree in TLD, just not in the present time of the book. There may be a need for some time-travel if the anomaly of Linden holding Covenant's ring at the end of WGW is to be explained. (I think that SRD mentioned this in the GI at some stage.)
Personally. I was quite happy with Linden having the ring at the end of WGW, it actually seemed quite symbolically apt. SRD, however, may have other ideas
u.
Tho' all the maps of blood and flesh
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
After long ages of slumber, the Worm now draws nigh unto the Land, seeking its final sustenance. In natural consequence, the One Tree expires to its roots.
There goes the theories about a return trip to the One Tree.
I just had a thought about this. I wouldn't rule out a return trip to the site of the One Tree in TLD, just not in the present time of the book. There may be a need for some time-travel if the anomaly of Linden holding Covenant's ring at the end of WGW is to be explained. (I think that SRD mentioned this in the GI at some stage.)
Personally. I was quite happy with Linden having the ring at the end of WGW, it actually seemed quite symbolically apt. SRD, however, may have other ideas
u.
There's plenty to resolve without a trip to the past (if such a trip could be accomplished). I also imagine that time travel would not be much help, otherwise why would the Elohim not travel back in time to escape the Worm? Any other method would potentially destroy the Arch and/or let the Worm into the Land's past.
As far as going back to the real world, if Covenant's perspective in AATE is correct, Linden and Jeremiah are dead. They have no place to return to (much like Hile Troy and Thomas Covenant). Linden could easily have unconsciously grabbed the ring in one of the two cases she was near enough Covenant to do so.
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Hiro wrote:Hmmm. Sorry to be a bit negative. I don't know about this chapter. Brinn feels like yet another Deus Ex Machina thrown in...
Not entirely sure if that's the term I would use (but I have made my distrust of that term known in the past ) But I know what you are talking about. In one sense, I would ask, "where's Brinn?" if he never showed up, so in that sense, it's good to see him and that he is concerned about things and will provide what aid he can.
On the other hand, he is acting as a sort of hybrid DEM and McGuffin by "solving" the problem of Covenant's health and providing direction for the story.
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Orlion wrote:
On the other hand, he is acting as a sort of hybrid DEM and McGuffin by "solving" the problem of Covenant's health and providing direction for the story.
Orlion wrote:
On the other hand, he is acting as a sort of hybrid DEM and McGuffin by "solving" the problem of Covenant's health and providing direction for the story.
Exactly.
I agree with this also, although I will say I'm glad to see Brinn again in any capacity, since he was one of my favorite characters from the 2nd Chronicles.
The line that struck me as out of place: “Here’s another fine mess you’ve gotten me into.” This pop-culture reference and the sense of humor prompting it just did not seem in character.
Love prevails.
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
I don't know if it's entirely fair to call Brinn's appearance deus ex machina.
After all, the Worm has awakened, so I imagine this would release the Guardian of the One Tree who is no doubt both powerful and immortal. And also probably wants to do something to save the Land.
True, it would be less "deus ex machina" if he showed up at a less opportune time, but maybe that would be bad story-telling.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
Savor Dam wrote:The line that struck me as out of place: “Here’s another fine mess you’ve gotten me into.” This pop-culture reference and the sense of humor prompting it just did not seem in character.
The Krill has become "much more". Was that the quote?
The gem has been described as a perfect structure, who loves structures?
What could Jeremiah do with a wild magic infused perfect structure?
High Lord Tolkien wrote:The Krill has become "much more". Was that the quote?
The gem has been described as a perfect structure, who loves structures?
What could Jeremiah do with a wild magic infused perfect structure?
I don't know but I can't stop thinking about it.
I've speculated that the Wraiths will use the krill-light to help hold back the Worm...
) But I know what you are talking about. In one sense, I would ask, "where's Brinn?" if he never showed up, so in that sense, it's good to see him and that he is concerned about things and will provide what aid he can. 
