Sleepless Ones?

[peter]

In the First Chrons the Bloodguard, as a result of their Vow, were condemned(?) never to die nor to sleep. Bannor when encountered after the Vow has been abandonned had aged and presumably was enjoying a few Z's when the need took him as well. I don't remember much reference to it in the 2nd Chrons - Brin and Cail were never mentioned as going to sleep I think, but neither were they mentioned not. Now in the Third Chrons the Haruchai are once again being refered to as 'sleepless ones'. What is behind this. Did TC, in confering the task of protecting Revelstone upon them once again elicit a Vow that cursed them to forgoe sleep or is there something else behind this. I don't recall it being explained anywhere (so far) but maybe I have missed something.

[I'm Murrin]

There was at least one scene in The One Tree which referred to how the Haruchai had stopped sleeping while protecting Covenant and Linden, I think. While they were staying in Brathairealm.

[dlbpharmd]

The Ramen have used this invective for the Haruchai for centuries.

To my knowledge, there are no references of the Haruchai sleeping at any point in TLC.

[peter]

Agreed, but I had never seen the sleepless thing as being an aspect of the Haruchai that they could turn on and off according to the particular commitment they were currently making (they seem to need to have some form of obligation which they have taken upon themselves at all times), but more of an unintended consequence of making a vow in the presence of Earthpower, a 'one off' event as it were.

[I'm Murrin]

I think in the First Chronicles it was very much a consequence of the Earthpower which supported their Vow. In the Second Chronicles, I think it's maybe an inconsistency in the storytelling, where SRD decided they do just choose to not sleep when they're dedicating themselves to something.

[ussusimiel]

I don't think it's said in the 2nd Chrons that the Haruchai don't sleep, but it's implied especially when Mistweave takes over looking after Linden. I always took it that the Haruchai's vigilance and dedication was almost superhuman and if they slept it was for a short time (remember there were 'spare' Haruchai for most of the Quest). Mistweave was also caught between his allegiance to the Giants and the Giantship whereas the Haruchai were single-minded in their protection of those under their care. If another Haruchai was in danger they were always clear about their priorities.

u.

[I'm Murrin]

As I said above I'm pretty certain there are scenes in TOT that mention the fact that the Bloodguard guarding Linden (I forget which that was) doesn't sleep.

[dlbpharmd]

As I said above I'm pretty certain there are scenes in TOT that mention the fact that the Bloodguard guarding Linden (I forget which that was) doesn't sleep.

It was Cail, and I agree. Ussusimiel is also correct about Mistweave's difficulty with forgoing sleep to ward Linden.

[ussusimiel]

As I said above I'm pretty certain there are scenes in TOT that mention the fact that the Bloodguard guarding Linden (I forget which that was) doesn't sleep.

I think this is the Chrons equivalent of a troll

u.

[I'm Murrin]

No, just me saying Bloodguard when I meant Haruchai.

[ussusimiel]

No, just me saying Bloodguard when I meant Haruchai.

A really good troll is one that you can casually pass off as a slip

Personally I think that it would diminish the sacrifice of the Bloodguard if the Haruchai were able to be sleepless without the help of Earthpower. The way I always took it in the 2nd Chrons was that the superior discipline of the Haruchai meant that they could operate at a high level for extended periods with little or no sleep. (A level of discipline that even Giants couldn't match.) It might be something as simple as when they stood watch they could meditate or enter an alert trance that staved (pun noted) off the need for sleep.

We also need to remember that this is a fantasy world and it may not be strictly necessary for it to adhere to 'our' world's rules. In 'our' world if a person foregoes sleep for a couple of days they start to hallucinate and 'dream' while they are awake. This may not apply in exactly the same way to the Haruchai.

u.

[dlbpharmd]

Personally I think that it would diminish the sacrifice of the Bloodguard if the Haruchai were able to be sleepless without the help of Earthpower.

That's a really good point.

[I'm Murrin]

I agree with that. And I fully believe it's a mistake SRD made - that he genuinely wrote it that the Haruchai in the second Chrons could regain te Vow-like abilities just because they needed them to protect Covenant.

[Vraith]

I think there are two different things going on.
The Har. habitually, almost constantly do things that are difficult...hell, torturous...that amaze everyone. The doing is part of the amazement...but the other part of the amazement is because quite often the mien of the Har. makes some [or all] of the difficulty, the struggle/effort, the effects, practically unnoticeable to most people.

The other [but related] thing: it is a deed/act in the 2nd to remain sleepless. It must have come at some cost. If it DIDN'T, then they'd all do it all the time.
For the Bloodguard, it was no such thing. It was a condition imposed on them, an effect of the power of the Vow. [IIRC, there might even have been some mention/hint that the Bloodguard would have preferred sleep, just as they would have preferred to see their home, their wives, the end of their lives. But sleeplessness was part of the price paid.]

IIRC, it is the Ramen who call them sleepless in AATE...they do so simply because that is how they know them best. It is how they group/judge/"know" them. Much the same reason they call LF "Fangthane the Render."

[ussusimiel]

I agree with both assertions, Vraith. Part of the 'price' paid for the chosen 'sleeplessness' of the Haruchai is the severe discipline imposed on them by their training (the trials by combat that we see in the Chrons exemplify this).

The historical memory of the Ramen's first encounter with the Haruchai would colour their subsequent dealings with them.

u.

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

We also don't know everything about how the original Vow worked, and we know that even after the Bloodguard order passed away, the Haruchai still felt the call of the Vow draw them into the Clave's domain (IIRC).

[Kevin BeerDrinker]

Without going back to the chrons to look for supporting material, I somehow had the impression that it was their telepathic link, and not so much the Vow, that allowed the Haruchai to get by with little or no sleep.

[bikebryan]

Without going back to the chrons to look for supporting material, I somehow had the impression that it was their telepathic link, and not so much the Vow, that allowed the Haruchai to get by with little or no sleep.

I disagree. Bannor clealy pointed out that he could no longer do without sleep in TPTP. He mentioned this on the Plains of Ra when he met Covenant there. That makes it pretty clear it was the power of the Vow that kept them without sleep all those centuries.

[Vraith]

We also don't know everything about how the original Vow worked, and we know that even after the Bloodguard order passed away, the Haruchai still felt the call of the Vow draw them into the Clave's domain (IIRC).

I don't think you do recall correctly.
Think being the important qualifier.
I don't recall any indication at all that the Vow had any
role in drawing them back. Their own nature and memory, sure...
but not the Vow.
If the Vow still carried force among them, the 2nd would have been
completely different, and they could never, ever, have become "Masters."
Bloodguard and Masters are antithetical in every imaginable way.

[peter]

The Haruchai constantly strive. They strove against the Insequant, against the Despiser, against the Old Lords - and when they have no-one else to strive against, hell, they strive against themselves (or even themself!). I think the Blodguard were exaulted by the Haruchai as being the ultimate in self-sacrificing service (the H seem to need this 'service' thing going on in their lives), even though they failed (there was no dis-honour in failure as long as it was failure at the final end of what you could ever have done to suceed). I can see them being drawn to the place of the Bloodguards deeds just by being driven to emulate them and I can even see them emulating the Bloodguards sleepnesness for the same reason. They are that stubborn that to do less would be unacceptable. What was initially imposed upon them by Earthpower as an unintended consequence of their Vow became theirs to use at need thereafter - and again their very nature gave them no choice in it's use. When they served, they didn't sleep; end off. Brinn, in becoming the Guardian of the Isle became the new standard against which all Haruchai would judge themselves. He, after all, had defeated an Insequant, the humiliation by which had started the whole thing off.