King Joyse

"Reflect" on Stephen Donaldson's other epic fantasy

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shadowbinding shoe wrote:Terisa let Eremis know Joyce was still a player but did it really worsen Mordant's situation that much?
It got the Queen kidnapped, so Joyse wasn't able to direct strategy. Nevertheless, Mordant and Alend managed to work together, thanks to the Tor and Norge being determined to form an alliance with Prince Kragen. So it certainly didn't drive the wedge between kingdoms that Eremis wished.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:Why did Joyce choose to reveal himself to her? I'm sure he knew about her closeness to Eremis. Their famous conversation after Myste disappearance was very informative to Terisa but Joyce already knew all the answers to his questions. Did he just want to hear about his daughter from a friend of hers after he distanced himself from her for so long? Maybe, but I doubt that's the whole answer. Why take such a huge gamble after all this time and for so little reward?
I think he wanted to know if Terisa was trustworthy, and he gambled that Terisa would keep her mouth shut, which she didn't.
shadowbinding shoe wrote: Joyce and Havelock master plan necessiated estranging himself from all his alleys but in the end he needed to gather them back again for the final showdown and Geraden and Terisa were his tools to accomplish that. They toured the kingdom and met with the Cares, with Kragen and the people of Orison and explained to the people what was going on. Without that Joyce wouldn't have anyone to rally.

Joyce was a gamble and as the story neared its end the stakes grew ever higher but as we know it paid off eventually.
I can't argue with that! :)
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Now it's the time after Havelock has burned the callat prisoner in the dungeon, and Geraden and Eremis are getting ready to accuse each other of treason before the Congery. Terisa goes to Joyse to get him to stop it all before Geraden is ruined.
In [i]The Mirror of Her Dreams[/i] was wrote:King Joyse lay as much as sat in an armchair with his legs stretched over a hassock toward the fire. His purple velvet robe showed the benefits of a recent cleaning, and his cheeks were freshly shaved: his appearance, if not his posture, suggested readiness.

In contrast, the Tor slumped as if his skeleton no longer had enough willpower to support his fat. Like his flesh, his robe spilled over the arms of his chair; the green fabric was stained with splotches of wine. Too plump to look haggard, his face sagged like wet laundry. He gave the impression that he had become so involved in Orison's preparations for defense that he had stopped taking care of himself.

Between the two old friends sat the King's Dastard, Adept Havelock, looking grimier and loonier than ever in his ancient surcoat, with his unruly tufts of hair and his disfocused gaze.

All three men held large, elegant goblets.

All three turned their heads toward Terisa as she was announced. The Tor peered at her through a haze of exhaustion and wine. Adept Havelock licked his lips salaciously. King Joyse nodded but didn't smile.

She had been hoping that he would smile. It would have done her good to see his luminous smile again.

He greeted her casually; his tone implied he was a bit the worse for drink. "My lady, come join us." His cheeks were red, scraped raw with shaving, but behind their color his skin looked pale. "Pour yourself some wine." He nodded toward a decanter and extra goblets on a table against the paneled wall. "It's quite good--a fine wine from--" A look of perplexity crossed his face. "Where did you say this wine is from?" he asked the Tor.

The Tor shook himself as if he were in danger of falling asleep. "Rostrum. A small village near the border of Termigan and Domne, where the babes drink wine instead of milk from their mother's breasts, and even the children can do exquisite things with grapes. Rostrum wine."
King Joyse nodded again. "Rostrum wine," he said to Terisa. "Have some. We're celebrating."
She stood in the center of the thick blue-and-red rug and tried to watch all three men simultaneously. "What're you celebrating?"

Adept Havelock giggled.

"Are we celebrating?" The Tor's voice sounded damp. "I thought we were grieving."
"Grieving? My old friend." King Joyse glanced at the Tor kindly. "What for? This is a celebration, I tell you"

"Oh, of course, my lord King." The Tor waggled a hand. "A celebration. I misspoke." His fatigue was plain. "Orison has been invested by the Alend Monarch. Your daughter has poisoned our water. While we sit here, the men of Perdon die, spending themselves with hope against Cadwal. And the royal Imager, Adept Havelock"--he inclined his head courteously in Havelock's direction--"has burned to death our only clue as to where--and who--our chief enemy is. We do well to celebrate, since we can accomplish nothing with sorrow."

"Nonsense," replied the King at once. Although his expression was grave, he appeared to be in good spirits. "Things aren't as bad as you think. Lebbick knows a trick or two about sieges. We still have plenty of Rostrum wine, so we don't need much water. As soon as he realizes we can't reinforce him, the Perdon is going to back off and let Festten through. That will stop the killing."

He seemed unaware that what he was saying didn't convey much reassurance.
He still seems like the same old out-of-touch delusional Joyse. But that impression won't last long at all, in this scene!
[More to come from this scene in the following posts.]
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In [i]The Mirror of Her Dreams[/i] was wrote:"And the death of the prisoner?" inquired the Tor glumly.

King Joyse dismissed that question. "Also, we have another reason to celebrate. The lady Terisa is here. Aren't you, my lady?" he asked Terisa, then went on speaking to the Tor. "Unless I've gotten it all wrong, she's here to tell us that she has found a new cure for stalemate."

Again, Adept Havelock giggled.

For a second, Terisa nearly lost her head. A cure? A cure for stalemate? Then they were all doomed.

Fortunately, she caught hold of her reason for being here before all her thoughts veered off into panic. Geraden. That was the important thing. Geraden.

"I don't know anything about stalemates. Or cures." Her tone was too curt. She made an effort to moderate it. "My lord King. I came because I'm worried about Geraden. Master Eremis is going to try and ruin him in front of the Congery."

The King gave her his attention politely. "Ruin him, my lady?"

"He and Master Eremis are going to accuse each other of betraying Mordant."

"I see. And don't you call that a stalemate?"

"No." She wasn't getting through. She had to do better. "No, my lord King. The Congery will believe Master Eremis." And yet she was certain--
"But he's lying."

The Tor twisted in his seat to study her more closely. With a show of effort, Adept Havelock picked up his chair, turned it, and plumped it down again so that he could sit facing her.

King Joyse, however, gazed toward the fire. "Master Eremis?" he asked as if he were losing interest. "Lying? That would be risky. He might get caught. Only innocent men can afford to tell lies."

"My lady," said the Tor quietly, "such accusations are serious. Master Eremis is a man of proven stature. The Congery might have some justification to take the word of one of their own number over the charges of a mere failed Apt. How do you know that Master Eremis is lying?"

She opened her mouth, then closed it again. What could she say? The piece of information lodged in her brain refused to come clear. Something Master Eremis had said, or revealed--Or was it Geraden? After a moment, she admitted, "I haven't figured that out yet."

"I see, my lady." The old lord returned his attention to the fire. "You simply trust Geraden. That is understandable. I trust him myself. There is no help I can give you, however. I am no longer my lord King's chancellor."

What?

Adept Havelock grinned at her.

King Joyse sighed and leaned his head against the back of his chair. "My old friend was wearing himself toward his grave with the business of Orison. He doesn't want to admit he's no longer young. Sadly, it's true."

"My lord Kin," the Tor explained, "has given instructions that I am not to be obeyed, except in matters of my personal comfort. With the arrival of Alend's army, my power ended." He snorted to himself. "You may imagine castellan Lebbick's delight. Remember, he thinks it possible that I am a traitor myself. He did not like my interest in our defenses. Though my lord King does not say so, I believe he has taken away my position to protect himself in case the good Castellan's suspicions prove correct."

At that, King Joyse jerked up his head. His watery eyes were suddenly acute, and his mouth twisted. He didn't reply to the Tor, however. Glaring at Terisa, he demanded, "Just what is it you want, my lady?"

She was startled: for a moment, she had lost herself in empathy for the old lord. Almost stammering, she said, "Geraden doesn't stand a chance in front of the Masters. Master Eremis will chew him to pieces. You've got to stop them. Don't let them do this to him."

"But if Master Eremis is telling the truth," returned the King in a voice like a rasp, "Geraden deserves to be caught and punished."

"No." She couldn't think. It was maddening. "You don't believe that."

King Joyse aimed his gaze at her like a nail and spoke as if he were tapping his words into wood. "That is not the point, my lady. At the moment, it isn't him I doubt. It's you."


Notice King Joyse manages to feign disinterest at Terisa naming Eremis a liar, but that Havelock and the Tor cannot. King Joyse has acting ability like no other character we've met in this world.
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In [i]The Mirror of Her Dreams[/i] was wrote:She blinked. Her heart began to labor again, pounding alarm in all directions. "Why?'

"Are you surprised? You underestimate me. I warned you this game was dangerous.

"After we talked, I had Myste's rooms searched. She took nothing personal with her--none of her little momentos of childhood, none of her favorite gifts. Does that seem likely to you? If she had gone after her mother, she would have taken everything she could carry.

"You liked to me, my lady. You lied to me about my daughter."

Inside her chest, a cold hand knotted into a fist. Both the Tor and Adept Havelock squinted at her as if she were being transformed to ugliness in front of them.

"Where did she really go?"

This was what Terisa had feared: King Joyse had found her out. She had learned the danger of lies when she was still a child. Falsehood had been exquisitely tempting to her; her dread of being punished had made her ache to deflect every manifestation of parental irritation, discontent, or disapproval. She had learned, however, that the punishment was worse when she got caught.

In simple defensiveness, she tried to counter as if she had cause to complain. "How did you know she came to see me? Were you having your own daughter spied on?"

Adept Havelock swung his chair back to face the fire, sat down again, and began to twiddle his fingers.

The King continued to glare at her for a moment. She met his gaze because she was afraid to do anything else. Then, abruptly, he too turned away. "You were warned," he muttered. "Remember that. You were warned.

"My lord Tor, be so good as to summon the guards. I want this woman locked in the dungeon until she condescends to tell me the truth about my daughter."

"No!" The cry burst from her before she could stop it. "I'll tell you. I'll tell you anything. Geraden needs me. If I'm not there, he'll have to face the Congery alone."

None of the men were looking at her. The Tor emptied his goblet, but didn't trouble to refill it.

Terisa took a deep breath, squeezed her eyes shut for a second. "She went after the champion. She thought he needed help." She swallowed hard. "I'm sorry."

To Terisa's astonishment, King Joyse's profile quirked toward a smile. But almost at one his expression turned sorrowful, and he leaned his head morosely to rest against his chair again. "More wine would be nice, don't you think?" he commented in the direction of the ceiling.

The Tor seemed to slump farther down in his seat.

With a strangled chortle, Adept Havelock tossed his wine into the fire. While the wine hissed and burned, he threw his goblet behind him, narrowly missing Terisa.

"Fornication," he pronounced, "is hard to do well alone."

"My lady," the King breathed as if he were going to sleep, "I didn't know Myste went to see you. I reasoned it. If you were more honest, I would have less trouble trusting you. You ought to try using a little reason yourself."

Terisa had expected him to be appalled and angry. Obviously he wasn't. Preconceptions were being jerked out from under her. This new surprise seemed to knock the last bit of sense out of the situation. Myste was doing something that had been foreseen in Havelock's augury of King Joyse. Was that why a lie made the King furious and the truth had nearly made him smile?

"I don't understand," she murmured weakly. "Don't you care?"

King Joyse reached out a swollen, unsteady hand and nudged Adept Havelock, who in turn nudged the Tor. "My lord, I said, 'More wine would be nice.'"

Sighing, the Tor pried his bulk out of his chair and moved to fetch the decanter.

"You want me to use a little reason." Terisa had difficulty holding her voice down. "How about giving me some information to reason with? Myste is probably dead. If the cold didn't kill her--and the champion didn't kill her--then that firecat probably did. You act like the only thing you care about is that she didn't go see her mother!"

"No." The King sounded sad, but he answered without rancor. "What I care about is that she did something I can be proud of."

Like an echo, Terisa seemed to hear Castellan Lebbick quoting King Joyse to Prince Kragen: She carries my pride with her wherever she goes. For her sake, as well as for my own, I hope that the best reasons will also produce the best results.

She wanted to yell, But that doesn't make any sense! Elega betrayed you! Myste is probably dead! The words died in her throat, however: they were hopeless. The thought that she would have to go support Geraden with nothing except more confusion made her feel sick.
As good a role-player that he is, Joyse can't keep playing the part when he wants to know how his family is doing. Even though he's been a good enough actor to fool his family and his close associates (Lebbick, the Tor) into thinking he doesn't care.

Adept Havelock swung his chair back to face the fire, sat down again, and began to twiddle his fingers. I've been trying to figure out what to make of this reaction of Havelock's to Terisa's resisting answering Joyse without getting information for herself. I suppose that he feels he knows what's going to happen in this scene from here on out. Assuming, of course, that he's in one of his saner phases.
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In [i]The Mirror of Her Dreams[/i] was wrote:The Tor refilled the King's goblet and his own, then eased himself into his chair. "The lady Terisa is distressed," he remarked distantly. "It would be a kindness, my lord King, if you gave her what she desires.'

King Joyse lifted his head once more, scowling sourly as if he meant to say something acid to the Tor.

But he didn't. Instead, he growled, "Oh, very well."

Over his shoulder, he addressed Terisa. "The reason I told Geraden not to talk to you when you were first brought here is the same reason I didn't intervene when the Masters decided to translate their champion. It's the same reason I'm not going to intervene now. I'm trying to protect you. Both of you."

"Protect us!" She was too upset to restrain herself. "How does it protect me to keep me ignorant? How does it protect us to let that champion be translated? We were buried alive!" I almost lost my mind. "How does it protect him to let Master Eremis destroy him? all you're doing is making us look foolish."

The King turned his head away and sketched a frail gesture with both hands. "You see?" he observed to the Tor. "She doesn't reason." Then his tone grew bitter. "You're still alive, aren't you? Do you have any conception how unlikely that was when you first arrived? Better minds than yours were sure neither of you would last for three days. A little foolishness is a small price to pay for your lives."

Terisa stared at the back of his head with her mouth open as if he had taken all the air out of the room.

"'Better minds'!" crowed Adept Havelock like a man addressing a crowd of admirers. "He means me. He means me."

"If I had welcomed you with open arms," King Joyse went on, "my enemies would have formed a higher estimate of how valuable you are. They would have put more effort into killing you." He sounded querulous and old, peevishly incapable of the things he ascribed to himself. "As long as they thought I had no interest in you--they could afford patience. Wait and see. Gart attacked you that first night because my enemies hadn't had time to find out I hadn't welcomed you. But as soon as people heard that I wasn't treating you like an ally, Gart held back for a while.

"Are you satisfied?"

His demand took her by surprise. She scrambled to ask, "Do you mean the reason you can't help Geraden now is that if you do your enemies will know you're his friend and start trying even harder to have him killed?"

"I mean much more than that," he snapped. "I mean that if I had given him permission to tell you whatever you wanted to know I would have doomed you both. My enemies would have taken anything like that as a sign that you were on my side.

"Now are you satisfied?"
Candor from Joyse like we've never heard from him before! And being so candid at this time certainly doesn't please him, does it?
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In [i]The Mirror of Her Dreams[/i] was wrote:"But what--?" It was too much: his explanation increased her confusion. It had all been an elaborate charade. "Who are your enemies? Why can't you protect anybody you want in your own castle?" Images of Geraden and Myste and Elega and Queen Madin and Master Barsonage and even Castellan Lebbick rose in her, all of them lost and aggrieved. "Why do you have to make everybody who's loyal to you think you don't care what happens?"

"My lady." His tone was no longer petulant. Now it was as keen and cutting as ice. "If I had any desire to answer such questions. I would have done so earlier. As a courtesy to your distress, I have already told you more than I consider wise." Like Geraden's, his speech became more formal as it gathered authority. Despite his years, his voice still had the potential to lash at her. "I advise reason and silence, my lady. You will not prolong your life by speaking of what you have heard."

He dismissed her without a glance. "You may go."

But--? But--? She knew she should have been stronger. She should have demanded a better explanation. But what she wanted to ask couldn't get past her mental stutter into words. She had no sure ideas left to stand on. King Joyse knew what he was doing--he knew with a vengeance. He was being passive and obtuse on purpose. But what purpose was that? It was inconceivable. He--

"My lady," he said again, "you may go."

In a tone of faraway sadness, the Tor murmured, "My lady, it is generally unwise to disregard the will of a king." He spoke as if from personal experience.

With a fierce effort, Terisa quelled her insistent incomprehension. The exertion left her angry and panting, but in control of herself.

"Thank you, my lord Tor," she said stiffly. "My lord King, I'm sorry. I lied to you about Myste because she trusted me. She was afraid somebody would try to stop her. She asked me to protect her. I lied to you because I didn't know you would have let her go."

None of the three men looked at her. They stared vacantly into the fire, as if they had used up their allotment of words for the day and had nothing left to think with. King Joyse let her get as far as the door before he breathed softly, "Thank you, my lady."

She left as if she were escaping.
As stunning as Joyse's revelations are about his strategies, I had to like him in this scene because of his "Thank you, my lady" response. I found myself thinking, "The old dodderer's all right after all. I believe I'll be rooting for him!"

She knew she should have been stronger. She should have demanded a better explanation. But what she wanted to ask couldn't get past her mental stutter into words. Actually, Terisa does the wisest thing she can do in this scene, despite her strong desire to gain some sort of assistance for Geraden: she got the heck out of there while "the getting was good"!
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

It's interesting to see the reactions of the two other men in the scene on reread now that we know all the secrets.

What does the Tor's lack of response here signify, do you think? I don't think he knows the King's mad plan. He's drunk and maudlin but beneath it all, is he madly, oh so silently, praying for the reappearance of his old friend and radiant leader Joyce? Somehow, this girl is conjuring something of that man that all his love and grief couldn't. Would he disappear again like a burst bubble if he uttered the wrong word now?
A little knowledge is still better than no knowledge.
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shadowbinding shoe wrote:It's interesting to see the reactions of the two other men in the scene on reread now that we know all the secrets.
I strongly agree!

shadowbinding shoe wrote:What does the Tor's lack of response here signify, do you think? I don't think he knows the King's mad plan. He's drunk and maudlin but beneath it all, is he madly, oh so silently, praying for the reappearance of his old friend and radiant leader Joyce?
The Tor doesn't understand the King's game at all, here. He probably is fervently hoping for the Joyse he remembers and has supported!

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Somehow, this girl is conjuring something of that man that all his love and grief couldn't. Would he disappear again like a burst bubble if he uttered the wrong word now?
By "he", do you mean the Tor or King Joyse?
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Nice interpretation of his feelings. :D

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Cord Hurn wrote: By "he", do you mean the Tor or King Joyse?
The Tor. He says very little in this scene.
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shadowbindingshoe wrote:Somehow, this girl is conjuring something of that man that all his love and grief couldn't. Would he disappear again like a burst bubble if he uttered the wrong word now?
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Cord Hurn wrote: By "he", do you mean the Tor or King Joyse?
The Tor. He says very little in this scene.
To answer your question, in my opinion the Tor is determinded to stick around whether or not Joyse says/does the right things or the wrong things.
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One of the noteworthy differences the second Mordant's Need book has with the first is that we no longer see everything only through Terisa's eyes. Here, it's through Lebbick's viewpoint. The Tor interrupts Castellan Lebbick's threatening Terisa with pain and unwanted advances to demand that they see what the King has to say about such behavior. Lebbick fears that the King will take the Tor's side, but can't refuse the Tor's challenge.
In chapter 28 of [i]A Man Rides Through[/i] was wrote:When Lebbick demanded an audience, the King answered in his nightshirt.

Instead of admitting the Castellan and the Tor to his presence, he opened the door of his formal rooms and stood there between the guards, blinking his watery old eyes at the lamplight as if he had become timid--as if he feared he might not be safe in his own castle in the middle of the night. He hadn't been asleep: he had come to the door too promptly for that. And he neglected or forgot to close it behind him. The Castellan saw that King Joyse already had company.

Two men sat in front of his hearth, looking over their shoulders toward the door.

Adept Havelock. Of course. And Master Quillon, the recently designated mediator of the Congery.

Master Quillon, who had accidentally contrived to help Geraden escape by tripping Lebbick. Master Quillon, who had mistakenly given that woman time to help Geraden by sending the guards away from the rooms where the mirrors were kept.

The Castellan ground curses between his teeth.

King Joyse gaped at Castellan Lebbick and then the Tor with a foolish expression on his face. His beard was tangled in all directions; his white hair jutted wildly around the rim of his tattered and lumpy nightcap--a cap, Lebbick happened to know, which Queen Madin had given him nearly twenty years ago. His hands were swollen with arthritis, and his back stooped for the same reason. The result was that he looked small and a little silly, too much reduced in physical and mental stature to be a credible ruler for his people.

And yet the Castellan loved him. Looking at him now, Lebbick found that what he missed most wasn't Joyse's former leadership--or his former trust. It was the Queen: blunt, beautiful, pragmatic Madin. She had done everything in her power to keep King Joyse from becoming so much less than he was. She wouldn't have let anybody see him in this condition.

That recognition surprised Castellan Lebbick out of the fierce speech he was primed to make. Instead of spitting his bitter demands in Joyse's face, he muttered almost gently, "Forgive the intrusion, my lord King. Couldn't you sleep?"

"No," King Joyse assented in a vague tone. "I meant what I told you to tell Kragen. I want to use the Congery. But I didn't know how. It was keeping me awake. So I sent for Quillon." As if he believed this to be the reason Castellan Lebbick had come to see him, he asked distractedly, "If you were them, what would you do tomorrow?"

Involuntarily, Lebbick exchanged a glance of incomprehension with the Tor. "'Them', my lord King? The Masters?"

"The Alends," King Joyse explained without impatience. "Prince Kragen. What's he going to do tomorrow?"

That question didn't require thought. "Catapults. He'll try to break down the curtain-wall."

King Joyse nodded. "That's what I thought." He seemed too sleepy to concentrate well. "Quillon and Havelock are going to do something about it." As an afterthought, he added, "They'll need advice. And you need to know what they're doing. Meet Quillon at dawn.

"Good night."

He turned back toward his rooms.
So far in this scene, we see a Joyse that is competent, if not inspiring. Nothing in his behavior to be shocked about, YET. But then the Tor brings up his concerns...
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In [i]A Man Rides Through[/i] was wrote:"My lord King." It was the Tor who spoke.

The King raised his eyebrows tiredly. "Was there something else?"

"Yes," the Tor said sharply before Castellan Lebbick could break in. "Yes, my lord King. Lebbick has put the lady Terisa of Morgan in the dungeon. He struck her. He means to question her with pain. And he may"--the Tor looked at Lebbick and fought to contain his anger--"may have other intentions as well.

"He must be stopped."

The Castellan started to protest, then caught himself. To his astonishment, King Joyse was glaring at the Tor as if the old lord had begun to stink in some way.

"What difference does it make to you, my lord Tor?" retorted the King. "Nyle was killed. Maybe you didn't realize that. The son of the Domne, my lord Tor--the son of a friend." He spoke as if he had forgotten why the old lord had come to Orison in the first place. "Lebbick is just doing his job."

In response, the Tor's expression turned to nausea; his mouth opened and closed stupidly. He was so appalled that a moment passed before he was able to breathe; then he said as if he were suppressing an attack of apoplexy, "Do I understand you, my lord King?" His lips stretched tight, baring his wine-stained teeth. "Does Castellan Lebbick have your permission to torture and rape the lady Terisa of Morgan?"

A muscle in King Joyse's cheek twitched. Suddenly, his eyes were no longer watery: they flashed blue fire. "That's enough!" Echoes of the man he used to be rang off the walls as he articulated distinctly, "You fat, old, useless sot, you've interfered with me enough. I'm sick of your self-righteousness. I'm sick of being judged. Castellan Lebbick has my permission to do his job."

Behind his constant scowl. inside his clenched heart, Lebbick felt like cheering.

The Tor's face swelled purple; his eyes bulged. His fists came up trembling, as if he were in the throes of a seizure--as if he had finally been provoked to strike his King. When he lowered them again, the act cost him a supreme effort. As the blood left his face, his skin became waxen.

"I do not believe you. You are my King. My friend." His voice rattled in his throat; his gaze was no longer focused on anything. "I, too, have lost a son. I will not believe you.

"Be warned, Castellan. You will suffer for it if you believe him."

His flesh seemed to slump on his bones as he moved away and went slowly down the stairs, carrying himself as if his years had caught up with him without warning and made him frail.

Softly, so that he wouldn't betray his jubilation, Castellan Lebbick murmured, "My lord King."

At once, King Joyse turned on him. The King's blue eyes continued to burn, but now they were unexpectedly rimmed with red. "That woman must be pushed," he rasped under his breath. "She must be made to declare herself." Then he thrust a crooked finger into Lebbick's face and snarled, "Be ready to answer for everything you do."

Without allowing Lebbick time to reply, he reentered his rooms and slammed the door.
Even though by this point in the story it's clear that Joyse is playing a role, this is still rather shocking! Joyse is energized, but apparently only for malicious pragmatism. It's tough to see the Tor get chewed out like this; it makes me echo what Geraden says later on about the King's intentions: "I don't like plans that hurt the Tor." :evil:
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We get some further insight into the way Joyse was known to be when Terisa escapes to Domne and is in discussion with that Care's lord. The Domne talks about not wanting to save the world like King Joyse, even though he does want it to be saved! The Domne prefers to focus on looking out for the people and resources of his own care, where he can more easily see what he can do to improve life. It is just after he explains this to Terisa that the following quote fits in:
In chapter 32 of [i]A Man Rides Through[/i] was wrote:Terisa thought that perhaps King Joyse and his old friend had more in common than the Domne appeared to realize. Problems should be solved by those who see them. But she preferred the Domne's way of doing it. Controlling her tendency to get angry whenever she thought about the King, she inquired, "Then why are you friends?"

"I'm not sure I can explain it," he said musingly. "We need each other.

"When I first met him--when he chased away the minor Cadwal prince who had been using the Care of Domne as his personal vassalage for the better part of a decade and set us free--I hadn't thought to refuse anything. I had as much fire in my blood as any young man who had just been released from a servitude he hated, and I seem to recall that I was perfectly willing to start learning how to use a sword.

"But when I actually met him--

"Terisa, that smile of his went right through my heart. As if it came down to me from the sky, I knew that I loved him. And I knew that the Care of Domne was never going to be what I wanted it to be if he didn't protect it. And I know that he needed something from me--something he wasn't going to be able to get from anybody else."

"Like what?"

"Balance," replied the Domne distinctly. "He needed balance. He wanted to save the world. Do you have any idea how dangerous that is? Men who want to save the world--and who make a few mistakes--become tyrants. The things they really want and love slip out of their fingers, and they end up clinging to the power because it's all they have left. The possibility was written all over him. He was the brightest and keenest man I had ever met--the kind of man who just naturally makes you want to lie down in the dirt for him--and I simply couldn't bear the idea that he might go too far and turn all the good in him rotten.

"It all came to me in a burst, like a sunrise. And it terrified me, because if I refused him he might just ride away and leave the Care of Domne to fend for itself. But it was necessary. We needed each other.

"He rode into Houseldon, as bright as a new day, but I stood my ground as if I had the right to it. 'Well, my lord Domne,' he said with that smile, wringing my heart because until he came I'd never believed that I would be lord of my own land, 'you're free. At least for a while. How many men can you give me?'

"'None, my lord King,' I said.

"'What, none?' He stopped smiling. I seem to remember he put his hand on his sword.

"I was terrified, but I said, 'This is the foaling season. I need every man I have.'

"He was angry, furious. But he was also perplexed. 'Let me understand you,' he said. 'Domne has been butchered back and forth between Alend and Cadwal for generations. You've been a vassal yourself your entire life until today. And all you care about is your sheep?'

"I swear to you, Terisa, his anger nearly blinded me. And I was getting a crick in my neck from staring up at him. 'I didn't say that, my lord King,' I replied. 'You asked how many men I can send away to be killed in your wars. The answer is, none. I need help with my foals.'

"He really has very little sense of humor. But he has a wonderful sense of joy. Or had. Instead of splitting my head open, he started to laugh.

"That night, we had one of the best feasts I've ever attended. I thought he was going to laugh for days. He kept saying, 'Sheep. Sheep,' and falling out of his chair.

"We've been friends ever since."

Terisa was surprised to find that she felt like crying. She knew what King Joyse's smile was like. From the first, she had wanted to like him, please him; she had wanted to serve him. The Domne reminded her of that--and of the fact that it was impossible. King Joyse himself had made it impossible.

In a soft voice, she asked, "And now? Are you still friends now?" After what he did to Nyle and Geraden and his own daughters? After what he's doing to the Congery and Mordant?

Slowly, the Domne turned his head, shifted his gaze from the window to look at her. His eyes seemed partially blind--adjusted to the brightness outside and unable to make her out clearly.

"He isn't responsible for Nyle's choices. He isn't even responsible for Castellan Lebbick's sanity. Both of them could have trusted him. At the same time, he went to a lot of trouble to keep you and Geraden as safe as he could.

"He's still my friend, Terisa. We need each other. Do you really want me to turn my back on him?"

After a while, she found that she was able to say, "No." In spite of her anger, she had no intention of turning her own back on the King.
Yes, the King's game is costly to his friends, but he's worth sticking with because it's costlier to the world if his enemies win. That's what I got out of this passage. And that King Joyse is good at heart and deserves trust even when he makes such trust difficult. Anyone else have any different/other interpretations of this passage?
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

I took from it that Joyce's 'smile' is a very dangerous thing. He is a man overflowing with charisma and vision and it's very hard to resist him when he ask you to follow him. (Good) people follow him unquestioningly to the ends of the earth. If he forgets for a moment that no matter how vaunted his ideals and will are they are still imperfect and limited, he can become a terrible man. Yet another tyrant, as Domne says. He needs someone like the Domne who is both unquestionably a good man and strongwilled enough to resist his pull and show that other things are important. That Joyce needs to let other people's dreams and visions come to fruition in his forming utopia even if they're not glamorous such as these Sheep.

Donaldson can be alluding here to some of the villains in this story. Were Terisa's father goals inherently evil from the beginning? Maybe he just got so caught in pursuing them that he became blind to the needs of others such as his own daughter. His Domne, his wife, didn't have the guts to speak up to him. She just smiled and nodded to everything he said. Terisa had no one to speak up for her.
A little knowledge is still better than no knowledge.
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I wanted to add that during the tale one of the most striking things about Joyce was the way he let everyone reach self realization, not at his direction but very much despite of it (as far as they knew at least.) King Joyce didn't order the Caretakers, his Congery, his people, even his daughters as a normal king would, he didn't help them but in the end they preservered and flourished and yes proved themselves, to the world and more importantly to themselves. There was very little rulering throughout the story aside from directing some of the final battle. He became the antithesis of the charismatic unbeatable leader we hear about.

Joyce enabled in his youth his people's freedom from the depredation of warlords and Imagers but after giving them this shining example that anything is possible if your heart is true eough and you are willing to dream big enough he let them face the final crisis by themselves so they'd believe in themselves, that they too can accomplish such things.

Havelock may have come out with The Plan but Joyce wasn't just following orders. He gave flesh and blood to the bones of a plan Havelock formed. We see him agonising endlessly over the Hopboard board that represents his people. He poured his own genius and heart into it. Maybe for Havelock saving the people of Alend and Cadwal and fulfilling prophecy was reason enough but I'm sure that Joyce needed more.

Is this the influence of Domne? Throughout the story we are again and again of the importance of Domne and his friendship with the king but it's not intuitively obvious why everyone says that. He is a good friend of the king and one of his sons became a great swardsman in the kingdom's army but is that enough to explain everyone's attitude to this family? What do they see exactly in this quiet Caretaker?

As you quoted, Cord, when the Domne hears of Joyce's doing from Geraden and Terisa he appears to approve.
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shadowbinding shoe wrote:...There was very little rulering throughout the story...

Joyce enabled in his youth his people's freedom...he let them face the final crisis by themselves so they'd believe in themselves, that they too can accomplish such things.
Yes, nice point.

--A
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shadowbinding shoe wrote:I took from it that Joyce's 'smile' is a very dangerous thing. He is a man overflowing with charisma and vision and it's very hard to resist him when he ask you to follow him. (Good) people follow him unquestioningly to the ends of the earth. If he forgets for a moment that no matter how vaunted his ideals and will are they are still imperfect and limited, he can become a terrible man. Yet another tyrant, as Domne says. He needs someone like the Domne who is both unquestionably a good man and strongwilled enough to resist his pull and show that other things are important. That Joyce needs to let other people's dreams and visions come to fruition in his forming utopia even if they're not glamorous such as these Sheep.

Donaldson can be alluding here to some of the villains in this story. Were Terisa's father goals inherently evil from the beginning? Maybe he just got so caught in pursuing them that he became blind to the needs of others such as his own daughter. His Domne, his wife, didn't have the guts to speak up to him. She just smiled and nodded to everything he said. Terisa had no one to speak up for her.
What an excellent post. You're really quite good at this analysis stuff, ShadowbindingShoe! :)
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Avatar wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:...There was very little rulering throughout the story...

Joyce enabled in his youth his people's freedom...he let them face the final crisis by themselves so they'd believe in themselves, that they too can accomplish such things.
Yes, nice point.

--A
Yeah, this is an echo of "the necessity of freedom" that's a common theme to be found in SRD's Covenant books.
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shadowbindingshoe wrote:Havelock may have come out with The Plan but Joyce wasn't just following orders. He gave flesh and blood to the bones of a plan Havelock formed. We see him agonising endlessly over the Hopboard board that represents his people. He poured his own genius and heart into it. Maybe for Havelock saving the people of Alend and Cadwal and fulfilling prophecy was reason enough but I'm sure that Joyce needed more.

Is this the influence of Domne? Throughout the story we are again and again of the importance of Domne and his friendship with the king but it's not intuitively obvious why everyone says that. He is a good friend of the king and one of his sons became a great swardsman in the kingdom's army but is that enough to explain everyone's attitude to this family? What do they see exactly in this quiet Caretaker?
Now that you've pointed this out, Shoe, I'd say, yes, this is the influence of the Domne upon Joyse.

shadowbindingshoe wrote:As you quoted, Cord, when the Domne hears of Joyce's doing from Geraden and Terisa he appears to approve
Well, right before the quoted passage, the Domne has to first quell his own anger against King Joyse. But once he does, he realizes he approves of what Joyse is trying to do, certainly!
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