King Joyse

"Reflect" on Stephen Donaldson's other epic fantasy

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matrixman wrote: A "Defend Mordant" thread? Egad, I suck at strategy. You start.
I think I will as soon as I read them again. I loved Cj's "Defend The Land" thread.

--A
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Yes, that was a great TC thread!
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Post by Rivina »

Yeah, I couldn't have done it either. I like Shadowbinding's idea of building up spy networks. That's something my mind could work on while I try and fortify all of Mordant.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

(This is an old thread, but so what? That never stopped me before, so why should it, now?:biggrin: )


King Joyse shouldn't have given Teresa any hint that he knew what he was really doing, because Teresa ended up giving that information to Master Eremis. And that led to Queen Madin's abduction by Alend mercenaries working for Cadwal. :queen:

King Joyse should have explained to somebody else in Orison that he was going to rescue the Queen. Somebody else besides Havelock (who he needed to facilitate the pursuit), somebody more sane than Havelock.

Other than that, Joyse did what he had to do. And did it pretty darned well! :king:
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Wasn't Eremis ready to abduct her anyway?

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Avatar wrote:Wasn't Eremis ready to abduct her anyway?

--A
Actually, no, Eremis had the same popular opinion that Joyse was an old dodderer, until Teresa visited Eremis in the dungeon (he was arrested after the translation of the champion) and revealed that Joyse knew exactly what he was doing. (That probably counts as Teresa's biggest blunder in the entire story!)

Joyse's reaction to Myste's disappearance is what clued Teresa in to the fact that the King was only pretending to be unaware of events.
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Although she'd revealed that to Eremis before the capture, so she must already have been pretty sure of it.

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Avatar wrote:Although she'd revealed that to Eremis before the capture, so she must already have been pretty sure of it.

--A

She was. Teresa insisted on playing a game of exchanging answers with King Joyse before she's reveal where Myste went, and the King's answers revealed he was actively using strategy.
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Damn Terisa. :lol:

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:D Well, by giving away King Joyse's alertness to Master Eremis, one can't deny that she made things worse before she made it all better! :S :hithead:

The second Mordant's Need book, rather than being called A Man Rides Through, could have been called Teresa Cleans Up The Mess She's Made, but I guess that title just didn't have that "ring" to it that helps sell books!

Publishers know best, after all (I guess)! :huh: :D
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Cord Hurn wrote:
Avatar wrote:Although she'd revealed that to Eremis before the capture, so she must already have been pretty sure of it.

--A

She was. Teresa insisted on playing a game of exchanging answers with King Joyse before she'd reveal where Myste went, and the King's answers revealed he was actively using strategy.
I should clarify! Teresa's dangerous game of exchanging questions and answers with the King gave her the information that the King was aware of goings-on and conscious of what he was doing, but in that scene she did not actually reveal where Myste went. She lied to Joyse and said Myste went to join the Queen.
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Almost all of the first book is Terisa making a mess of things... :lol:

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Well, I don't believe she's responsible for everything going wrong, but she certainly should have been suspicious enough of Eremis not to reveal what she learned of King Joyse in this scene:
In [i]The Mirror of Her Dreams[/i] was wrote:"My lady," he asked softly, "where is my daughter?"

So she was right. Her pulse beat faster. At last she had song somebody else wanted, something she could use. As long as she didn't betray Myste, this was her chance.

The prospect frightened her, but she clung to it with both hands. "Which daughter?" she returned despite the tremor in her voice. "You have several."

She expected indignation and anger--that was what she always expected--but King Joyse remained quiet. His expression didn't change. For a long moment, he studied her through the moisture in his eyes. Then he indicated the chair across the table from him. "My lady, will you be seated?"

At first she hesitated. Perhaps she would be stronger if she stayed on her feet. But his sadness was as persuasive as his smile. She went to the chair, pulled it away from the table to dissociate herself from hop-board, and sat down.

When she was seated, he said in the same soft, grieving tone, "My lady, my daughter Myste is gone. Where is she?'

Suddenly her tongue was so dry that she could hardly swallow. Like a frightened but stubborn child, she asked, "My lord King, shy did you let Castellan Lebbick arrest me?"

The room seemed uncomfortably warm. Again, the King's eyes gave a hint of steel. He held her gaze until she faltered and looked down. Then he breathed almost inaudibly, "My lady, do not play this game with me. It is more dangerous than you imagine."

For a few seconds while her heart hammered and her stomach knotted, she nearly backed down. She didn't have the strength to face him. Anybody was stronger than she was. As she had with Saddith, she felt that vulnerability and weakness were her only defense, her only weapon.

But backing down now wouldn't accomplish anything. The King would still want to know about his daughter. He would still demand answers. If she gave up what she wanted, she wouldn't make herself safer. And it would be more difficult for her to avoid betraying Myste.

And she was too angry to give up. Deliberately, she raised her eyes to the King's again. I don't have any choice. Geraden tried to take me back where I belong, but that mirror doesn't seem to work anymore. I have to play.

"Why did you let Castellan Lebbick arrest me?"

Something shifted in the background of King Joyse's expression, like clouds moving their shadows across a distant landscape. Without any definable change, his attention became sharper and more cautious.

"My lady"--his tone was caustic in an oddly impersonal way, as if he didn't mean it--"do you know who your friends are?'

She stared at him in surprise and bit her lip and didn't try to answer.

"Well, I don't either. Having you arrested would have been a good way to find out. It would have been very interesting to see who tried to help you, or communicate with you, or persuade me to let you go. But of course Geraden interfered. With his usual instinct for disaster. I already knew he was a friend of yours."

This reply startled her. It drew a different sketch of him--of the way his mind worked--than she was expecting: it seemed to imply that he was paying attention to what happened in Orison. "Wait a minute," she protested weakly. "Wait a minute. You mean you planned to have me arrested? It was just a ploy?"

"No, my lady." He waved one sore-knuckled finger at her. You aren't playing the game. It's my turn now. Where is my daughter?"

Terisa drew a sharp breath. For a moment, she considered trying to extort information from him without revealing anything herself. In spite of his age, hover he looked too strong fro that tactic. And it wouldn't be fair. He was Myste's father.

Carefully, she responded, "She came to see me yesterday afternoon. In my rooms. We talked for a long time."

He nodded. "I guessed that. But I don't understand it. What do you have that she wanted? What did she tell you?"

"No, my lord King. It's my turn now."

She had so many questions. Too many to remember them all at once. And she didn't want to waste an opportunity like this on the one she had blurted out a moment earlier. So she concentrated on the issue that had brought her to the King's suite--on Castellan Lebbick and his behavior.

"When I leave my rooms with someone--with Master Eremis, for example--my guards always want to know where I'm going. But w I leave with Geraden, nobody seems to care. Why is that?'

King Joyse snorted as if she had just made a particularly bad move. In the same, caustic, impersonal way, he said, "You should have figured that out for yourself. I already know Geraden is your friend."

Right. Of course. She really should have figured that out for herself. A sense of panic rose in her. She wasn't thinking quickly enough.

Impatiently, the King continued, "You were speaking of my daughter, my lady."

"Yes." She needed to be smarter. Sharper. She was tempted to turn to the Tor for help. But she could hear him breathing deeply, heavily, as though he were about to snore. Groping for inspiration, she asked, "Can more specific?'

"Certainly," he snapped. "Where is she?'

Fortunately, his tone brought back her anger. All right. If that was the way he wanted to play. "I don't actually know where she is." She made an attempt to sound sweet. "But you asked what I have that she wanted. There's an entrance to a secret passage in my wardrobe. She wanted to use it."

Again, he nodded. Apparently, Terisa was only confirming his own suspicions. "Why?"

Anger was a great help. She was being cruel to him--but only because she had been so badly treated herself. "My lord King," she said stiffly, "the first night I was here a man tried to kill me. When he was chased away, Castellan Lebbick started a search for him But you called it off." Despite her inexperience, she worked to match his tone. "Why?"

For an instant, King Joyse hesitated. The shadows shifted behind his eyes. Then he said trenchantly, "Because I didn't want him caught."

"What? Why not?"

"I didn't think he was stupid, so I didn't think he would lead Lebbick to his allies. And I didn't think he was a coward, so I didn't think he would tell me anything if Lebbick caught him. only way to learn anything about him was to leave him alone and wait for what he did next." His voice grew harsher, but it still sounded impersonal, as if his ire were calculated rather than real. "Are you satisfied, my lady?"

"Why did my daughter want to use a secret passage?"

"Because"--Terisa's anger made her stronger than she would believed possible--"she wanted leave Orison."

That struck him, hurt him. "Leave Orison?"

"She knew you would stop her if you could, so she used that passage to get down into the laborium. Then she sneaked out through the hole in the wall."

"Leave Orison?" he repeated. "Why?"

"No." She clenched her fists to make herself ignore his distress. "Why did you make me play hop-board against Prince Kragen? You did everything you could to force a war. I didn't enjoy being used like that."

So suddenly that she had no chance to defend herself, King Joyse surged out of his chair. As if he had never been weak or old in his life, he knotted his hands in front of her shirt and jerked her to her feet. "This is intolerable! She is my daughter!" His eyes ran as if he were weeping. "Her mother and one of her sisters left me. Her other sister holds me in contempt. Where did she go?"

Terisa should have broken then: she knew that about herself. She should have given up everything and betrayed Myste in simple fear. Her own anger should have evaporated.

But it didn't.

"Back to her mother," she retorted. Myste was her friend. "She wanted to be loyal. She wanted to help you. But when you insulted Prince Kragen like that, you broke her heart. She was raised to be the daughter of a king, not some petty tyrant who likes war and can't be bothered to defend his own people. She--"

Terisa stopped. His anguish stopped her. His sudden strength collapsed. He let go of her shirt. His hands dropped. His eyes squeezed shut, but tears went on spilling past his old eyelids. "If you lie to me--" he rasped far back in his throat. "If you dare lie to me--" It wasn't a threat: it was a plea. Fumbling behind him, he found the arm of his chair and braced himself on it while he sat down. His robe covered him as if he were lost inside it. "My daughter, what have I done to you?"

"Why did you do it?" Terisa asked so that his pain wouldn't tear the truth out of her. "Why did you make me play hop-board against Prince Kragen?"

"To test him," he replied like a man who had no idea what he was saying. "No other reason. How could I trust him? Alend has been Mordant's enemy for generations. He has a personal grudge against me. If his mission were honorable, he would refuse to play. He would have no reason to brook that insult to the Alend Monarch. But if he intended treachery he would acquiesce because he could not risk my displeasure--risk expulsion from Orison before his work was done." He covered his face with his hands. "Oh, my daughter."

So it was true. He knew what he was doing, what was happening around him. The thought seemed to chill her blood. Where had she gotten the idea that it was too warm in this room? She wanted to shiver violently. Ignorance or senility had nothing to do with it.

He was intentionally destroying Mordant.

And yet his distress swept her anger away. She could fear him, but she couldn't be angry at him. "I'm sorry," she said, trying to be kind. "I guess this game is a stalemate too."

Roughly, he pulled down his hands. They shook as he clasped them together in his lap. He didn't look at her. Quietly and distinctly, he said, "My lady, I suggest you give the matter more consideration before you again attempt to end a stalemate by tilting the board." Then he indicated the door with a twitch of his hand, dismissing her.

She turned to leave as if she were fleeing.

The Tor was awake. He watched the King with a look that resembled hunger. As she passed his chair, he gave her a firm nod of approval.

She had already closed the door behind her before it occurred to her to wonder how King Joyse had been able to guess that Myste had come to her for help.
But she DID reveal that King Joyse was still capable of strategizing, so Eremis knew he'd have to have Queen Madin abducted to take Joyse out of the picture, keep him distracted.
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My opinion of her has been made clear in the past. :D

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Avatar wrote:My opinion of her has been made clear in the past. :D

--A
It truly has. And while some part of me wants to argue in her defense, I think I'll save it for some other thread. If I get back to this particular thread, it will probably be with opinions and quotes concerning the "old dodderer" instead...just 'cause it's, y'know, HIS thread. :king: ;)
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Poor old Joyse. I never know whether to admire his dedication or curse it. :D

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Avatar wrote:Poor old Joyse. I never know whether to admire his dedication or curse it.
I know what you mean! We see he causes anguish for his loyal subject Geraden right from the first time we see him.
In [i]The Mirror of Her Dreams[/i] was wrote:Geraden took a step forward, but neither King Joyse nor the old Adept looked up from the game. After a moment, he cleared his throat. Still neither of the players took notice of him. He glanced back at Terisa and shrugged, then ventured to call attention to himself.

"My lord King, I've brought the lady Terisa of Morgan to you." He hesitated briefly before adding, "I've told her you must meet her."

Adept Havelock remained hunched over the board, unheeding of everything except his game. But the King raised his head, turned his moist blue gaze toward Geraden and Terisa.

He seemed to take a moment to focus his eyes. Then slowly, he began to smile.

Terisa thought immediately that he had a wonderful smile. It contained none of the artificial good humor or calculation she might have expected from a ruler. Instead, it lighted his face with a clean, childlike innocence and pleasure: it made him look like a young boy who had unexpectedly found a secret friend. Irrationally, she felt that her entire life might have been different if she had seen anyone smile like that before. She couldn't stop herself from smiling back at him--and didn't want to.

With a slight quaver of age in his voice, he said, "If you have told her that I must meet her, Geraden, then surely I must. It would be unforgivably discourteous if you spoke anything less than the truth to such a lady--and so it would be equally rude if I failed to make what you have told her true."

Carefully, he pushed his chair back and rose to his feet. His movements were unsteady; standing, he appeared more than ever lost in his voluminous robe. But his smile remained as pure as sunlight. "My lady Terisa of Morgan, do you play hop-board?"

Terisa was fixed on King Joyse, but at the edge of her attention, she thought she saw Geraden wince.

Joyse's fixation on hop-board vexes Geraden, all right, but not as much as his echoing the Congery's command that he not answer Terisa's questions, that's for sure.
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We really don't see King Joyse again until Prince Kragen of Alend comes to call as an ambassador requesting a private audience. Defying this request, Joyse instead insists on meeting Kragen in Orison's hall of audiences in front of all Orison's official people.
In [i]The Mirror of Her Dreams[/i] was wrote:King Joyse didn't stand or in any other way return the Prince's salutation. Gruffly, he muttered, "Kragen, is it? I know you." The tremors of age in his voice made him sound petulant.

The Prince's smile shifted a few degrees. "Have we met, my lord King?"

"Yes, we have, my lord Prince." King Joyse articulated the title sourly. "You should remember. It was seventeen years ago. You led several squadrons of Alend horse to protect one of your Imagers from me. When I beat you, I had to have you bound to make you accept defeat--yes, and gagged to make you keep your insults to yourself. You were an overeager puppy, Kragen. I hope that seventeen years have made you wiser."

Now Prince Kragen wasn't smiling. His men weren't smiling. One of them whispered something Terisa couldn't hear. Nevertheless Kragen's manner remained suave and sure. "My thanks for the reminder, my lord King. I doubt that I am much wiser, since I have always been too ready to forget my defeats. For that reason, I am not bitter. Howsoever, it is well that I have come as an ambassador instead of an opponent, is it not? Since I am an ambassador, you will not need to have me bound and gagged in order to save yourself from an overeager puppy."

At that, Castellan Lebbick made a noise between his teeth that could be heard across the hall. Though he sat back in his chair with his arms folded, he gave the impression that he was ready to spring at Prince Kragen's throat.

King Joyse scowled. "I have often said," he answered the Prince slowly, "that a puppy is more deadly than a dog. A dog learns from experience. A puppy has none, and so his behavior cannot be predicted."

The Alend ambassador's eyes had a yellowish cast, like a tinge of anger. Yet his manner remained unruffled. His stance indicated that he was incapable of quailing. "My lord King, do you keep hunting dogs? I do not know if you enjoy the sport. It is one of my passions. Among my people I am not considered a poor master of the hunt. I can assure you that it is never the puppy that brings down the stag."

The King's hands gripped the arms of his throne. "That," he snapped, "is because dogs hunt in packs."

"Oh, Father," Elega groaned softly.


Here, King Joyse appears to be belligerent for no apparent constructive reason. I wouldn't think that is the way ambassadors talk to one another, at least not in front of such a public audience. This audience with the Prince is a prime opportunity for the King to convince people he's lost his grasp on reality--the reality he's in danger from Cadwal and Imagery. And King Joyse sure makes the most of that opportunity, here. :screwy:
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Then Prince Kragen drops his bombshell news by offering something that sounds every much like the answer to Mordant's need.
In [i]The Mirror of Her Dreams[/i] was wrote:More sternly, King Joyse went on, "We have little reason to love Alend. I ask you simply, Kragen: Why are you here?"

As if nothing had happened, the Prince replied, "I will answer you simply, my lord King. The Alend Monarch wishes to know what takes place in Mordant. He wishes to end the chaos of rumor and implication. And"--Kragen paused for an instant of drama--"he wishes to propose an alliance."

The reaction in the hall was as strong as he could have desired. Unable to restrain herself, Elega sprang to her feet--as did the Castellan, two of his officers, and Master Barsonage. Master Quillon gaped. Whispers of surprise spattered toward the ceiling. Clapping her hand to her mouth, Myste stared up at her father with excitement and hope.

Terisa had no reason to share Castellan Lebbick's hostility. As far as she was concerned, the Prince had just spoken the first sensible words she had heard in the hall of audiences.

"An alliance?" snapped Lebbick. "With Margonal? Sheep-dung!"

One of his officers demanded, "Does the Alend Monarch think we have lost our minds?"

But another cried, "But if we are allied against Cadwal? The High King musters his armies beyond the Vertigon. The Perdon should hear this!"

At the same time, Master Barsonage protested, "An alliance? An alliance against our doom?" He looked almost frantic. "My lord King, you must accept!" For an instant, Terisa thought he was going to shout, You must accept, so that the Congery will not need to call its champion!

More quietly, but with equal fervor, the lady Elega was saying, "Bravely said, Prince Kragen! Bravely done."

But King Joyse said nothing until the hubbub stilled itself. He didn't appear surprised. In fact, he hardly seemed to be interested. His face was tight, as if he were stifling a yawn.

At last the hall became quiet again. Castellan Lebbick and the others seated themselves reluctantly, as though pushed down against their will. Soon, every eye was fixed on King Joyse.

Muttering under his breath, he pulled himself straighter in his seat. His circlet had been nudged askew, and a few strands of hair hung down over his eyes. "An alliance, Kragen? After several dozen generations of war? Why would I agree to such a thing?"

"My lord King, I have not the least idea," the Prince replied equably. "I have no facts. But the rumors coming out of Mordant suggest that you are in need. They suggest that the need is growing dire. Therefore it occurred to the Alend Monarch to offer his assistance."

"What does the Alend Monarch think our need is?"

The Prince shrugged delicately. "I must repeat that he hears only rumors. But the import of these tales seems clear." He nodded past Lebbick toward the Masters. "It appears that some--perhaps many--of your Imagers have turned against you."

"Impossible!" Master Barsonage protested at once. "You are offensive, my lord Prince."

King Joyse ignored the mediator. "And what does the Alend Monarch think to gain from this alliance?"

"Your trust, my lord King."

That made sense to Terisa.

King Joyse had a different reaction, however. He sat forward, his incredulity plain on his face. "What? Trust? He does not wish to rule half of Cadwal? He does not desire Imagers of his own?"

"As I have said," Prince Kragen explained patiently, "the Alend Monarch has given himself to wisdom. He understands that things may happen between rulers who trust each other which are impossible otherwise. Of course he desires the resources of Imagery for his people. Of course he desires the wealth of Cadwal, so that he can purchase more of what Mordant has and Alend lacks. But he sees that these wishes will not be fulfilled without trust. And trust must begin somewhere.

"He offers you his assistance and asks nothing in return. If what he wants can be achieved, it will come of its own accord when his cooperation has taught you to know him better."

"I see." King Joyse leaned back again. "Doubtless that explains why Margonal has an army of tremendous size gathering beyond the borders of Fayle and Armigite. I mean, of course, that I have heard rumors of such an army."

"Then you have also heard," the Prince answered smoothly, "that High King Festten musters a massive assault against you. Doubtless"--he allowed himself a hint of sarcasm--"he means to take advantage of your weakness--I mean your need--to crush your kingship, enslave the Cares, and capture all Imagery for himself. I think you will understand, my lord King, that the Alend Monarch cannot permit Cadwal such a victory. Whether or not you accept his alliance, he must oppose the High King. In forging the Congery, you have created something which must not be surrendered."

"That is true," acknowledged the King. "That is true."

For a long moment, he stared at the ceiling, with his mouth open, stroking his beard as though he were deep in thought. His eyes closed, and Terisa thought suddenly, Oh, no, he's going to sleep! Abruptly, however, he looked back down at Prince Kragen and smiled.

His smile seemed to light his face like a touch of sunshine.

"My lord Prince," he said as if he were happy for the first time since the audience began, "do you play hop-board?"
And then, of course, Prince Kragen is forced to play checkers against Terisa at arrow-point, and this humiliation of him leads to 1) Princess Elega's allying herself with Alend and 2) to the Congery's translation of the champion. And Myste becomes the sole friend of the champion when she goes after him with food, warmth, and guidance. It all seems so crazy the way Joyse treats Kragen here, yet the result is two of his daughters gain positions of power from it. It's a strategy more worthy of chess than checkers! :o
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Terisa let Eremis know Joyce was still a player but did it really worsen Mordant's situation that much? Throughout the story Terisa acted as a lightning rod that revealed hidden truths and broke the status quo the kingdom was mired in for years. Why did Joyce choose to reveal himself to her? I'm sure he knew about her closeness to Eremis. Their famous conversation after Myste disappearance was very informative to Terisa but Joyce already knew all the answers to his questions. Did he just want to hear about his daughter from a friend of hers after he distanced himself from her for so long? Maybe, but I doubt that's the whole answer. Why take such a huge gamble after all this time and for so little reward? Joyce and Havelock master plan necessiated estranging himself from all his alleys but in the end he needed to gather them back again for the final showdown and Geraden and Terisa were his tools to accomplish that. They toured the kingdom and met with the Cares, with Kragen and the people of Orison and explained to the people what was going on. Without that Joyce wouldn't have anyone to rally.

Joyce was a gamble and as the story neared its end the stakes grew ever higher but as we know it paid off eventually.
A little knowledge is still better than no knowledge.
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