Ginsburg on Hobby Lobby

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Ginsburg on Hobby Lobby

Post by aliantha »

I'm pretty sure we talked about Hobby Lobby in here, but I can't figure out where. So: new thread! :biggrin:

Raw Story is covering a Yahoo News interview that Katie Couric did with Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. There's video of the interview at the bottom of the story, but here's the gist of it:
Speaking with Katie Couric on Yahoo Global News, Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said that five of her male counterparts on the court have “a blind spot” when it comes to women’s issues.

After noting that all three female justices were in the minority in the recent Hobby Lobby decision, Couric asked Ginsburg whether she “believed the five male justices truly understood the ramifications of their decision.”

Following a long pause, Ginsburg said, “I would have to say, ‘No.’”

“But,” she added, “justices continue to think, and can change. So I’m ever hopeful that if the Court has a blind spot today, its eyes can be opened tomorrow.”

“But you do, in fact, feel that these five justices had a bit of a ‘blind spot’?” Couric asked.

“In Hobby Lobby?” Ginsburg replied. “Yes.”

“Because they couldn’t understand what it is like to be a woman?” Couric asked.

“They all have wives. They have daughters. By the way, I think daughters can change the perception of their fathers.”

Ginsburg went on to note that her opinions on these matters are contained in her dissents, and that there is a tradition of dissents becoming “unquestionably, the law of the land.”

In her scathing dissent in the Hobby Lobby case, Ginsburg noted that the majority’s willful misreading of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act would have unintended consequences.

“Little doubt that RFRA claims will proliferate, for the Court’s expansive notion of corporate personhood – combined with its other errors in construing RFRA – invites for-profit entities to seek religion-based exemptions from regulations they deem offensive to their faith,” she wrote.

Earlier this week, in fact, the Satanic Temple declared that it would use the majority’s interpretation of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act just as Ginsburg predicted groups would.
I haven't read her Hobby Lobby dissent, to be honest -- I was more interested in the way the court split, with all the women lined up on the dissenting side. And not long after, one of them -- it might have been Ginsburg -- said publicly that she thought we needed more women on the Supreme Court (the implication being that it would keep the court from issuing more boneheaded decisions like Hobby Lobby :lol: ).
Last edited by aliantha on Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Zarathustra »

I think it's despicable for a female Justice to accuse men of not understanding women's issues whenever they don't agree with her. If one of the males on the SCOTUS had said something similar about a female Justice not being qualified to rule on "male issues," it would be clearly seen as a sexist remark.

If Ginsburg is claiming that the reasoning in a Supreme Court case depends on one's sex, then she's the one who is biased, and not the others. One's logic doesn't depend upon one's sex. Balancing the issues of religious freedom with government health care mandates should not be skewed with thinking of this in terms of "women's rights" as the most relevant point. The law--which the SCOTUS upheld--was cosponsored by a woman, Nancy Pelosi. It was never intended as a defense of women's issues, but of religious freedom. The fact that Ginsberg's personal views as a women clashed with both the law and the Constitutional concept of religious freedom says more about her than the men.
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Post by SoulBiter »

As you no doubt figured... I respectfully disagree with Ginsburg on this ruling and personally dont think it was 'boneheaded at all. No one is stopping any of these women from getting any birth control. There were 16 types of birth control that were not contested and will be paid for under their insurance.

There are a couple of threads with this discussion in it.


Discrimination Versus Business Rights

Upcoming Supreme Court Cases
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Post by aliantha »

Z, she's not saying there's a problem with the RFRA. She's saying the majority misapplied it in this case. For her, the issue boils down to whether one person (an employer) has the right to make healthcare decisions for another person (an employee), and religion has nothing to do with it. She says in the video that you have the right to swing your arms any way you choose -- but your right to do it ends at the point where your hand connects with someone else's nose.

But what if we did have more women on the Supreme Court? What if women were the majority? What are you guys afraid of? :twisted:
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Post by SoulBiter »

What if we had more of anything on the Supreme court? What does that really matter.

First the Supreme court ruled wrongly that the govt could mandate that business not only offer healthcare insurance but what kind of insurance that would be.

So why are you now surprised that they would rule 'wrongly' on anything else?
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

aliantha wrote:But what if we did have more women on the Supreme Court? What if women were the majority? What are you guys afraid of? :twisted:
This wouldn't matter at all--Supreme Court justices do not render their opinions based on their gender. Well, at least they shouldn't do that.

It is extremely bold of Justice Ginsberg, though, to claim that her colleagues fail to understand the ramifications of their decision. In essence, she just accused them of not understanding what they were saying!

It is possible that at some point in the future there might be more females on the Court than males. I guess we'll just have to wait and see...but it still won't matter.
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Post by aliantha »

I think she's probably fed up with these guys. :lol: Hey, she's 81 -- she can say what she thinks.

But I thought her rather oblique comment about dissenting opinions was illuminating -- that America has a history of making such opinions the law of the land eventually. She mentioned it in connection with Couric's question about Citizens United, but I can't help thinking she had Hobby Lobby in mind, too.

I'm actually kind of surprised that she sat for the interview. Judges of all stripes have typically been reticent to submit to them. I guess everybody wants their 15 minutes of fame these days...
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Post by Vraith »

aliantha wrote: Judges of all stripes have typically been reticent to submit to them. I guess everybody wants their 15 minutes of fame these days...
I thought it was an slow [too slow] step forward in response to OTHER things...such as, for instance, Scalia basically saying "If we can't make laws against evil fags, then we can't make laws against murderers...it's all the same thing."

This decision was wrong [and despite other stuff, Ginsberg's dissent is mostly based on this wrongness] due to half a dozen other factors that have nothing to do with "women's rights," in particular/as a special class/exemption.

Hashi, I think she was saying they didn't understand what they were saying. And I think she was right.
They either didn't "understand" or willfully intended, that the "narrowness" they kept claiming was total, complete, and absurd bullshit.

BTW, and someone can correct me if I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure that there was NOTHING that was found "unconstitutional." I think it was only found to violate one statute. [a pretty sloppy and weak one.]
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Post by Cail »

So Justice Ginsburg has no interest in women's rights or equality, she only cares about maintaining the preferential treatment women get.

So because 5 Justices believe that not getting something for free isn't oppression, we need more women on the Court to insure women get free stuff. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Vraith wrote: They either didn't "understand" or willfully intended, that the "narrowness" they kept claiming was total, complete, and absurd bullshit.

BTW, and someone can correct me if I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure that there was NOTHING that was found "unconstitutional." I think it was only found to violate one statute. [a pretty sloppy and weak one.]
The two things are worlds away from each other.[/color]
As I said above, ruling that its Constitutional that the govt can force private companies to pay for private insurance for their employees, is constitutional is complete and utter bullshit as well. Yet without that ruling we wouldnt be having this ruling that you disagree with....

Once we go down the path of the Supreme Court making poor rulings on things that are obviously not Constitutional, then expect to see more.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

aliantha wrote: I'm actually kind of surprised that she sat for the interview. Judges of all stripes have typically been reticent to submit to them. I guess everybody wants their 15 minutes of fame these days...
Now that you mention it, you are correct--SCOTUS justices almost never give interviews. I think this tells us how important the issue is to her so she wanted to make sure that her viewpoint got heard.

I still disagree with her--not only did the majority opinion understand the decision that they implemented, but their opinion and ruling were correct.
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Post by Rawedge Rim »

aliantha wrote:Z, she's not saying there's a problem with the RFRA. She's saying the majority misapplied it in this case. For her, the issue boils down to whether one person (an employer) has the right to make healthcare decisions for another person (an employee), and religion has nothing to do with it. She says in the video that you have the right to swing your arms any way you choose -- but your right to do it ends at the point where your hand connects with someone else's nose.

But what if we did have more women on the Supreme Court? What if women were the majority? What are you guys afraid of? :twisted:
So what part of the decision do you believe that Ginsberg think her male colleages got wrong? And of course the question is begged....what healthcare is being denied, and exactly how is Hobby Lobby accomplishing this amazing feat?
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Post by aliantha »

Employers may now claim a religious exemption and refuse to pay for birth control prescriptions -- for *any* reason. Keep in mind that the pill is prescribed for women for reasons that have zero, zip, zilch, nada to do with pregnancy. One of my daughters was on the pill not because she was having sex and didn't want to get pregnant, but because she suffers from migraines. And there are other hormonally-triggered diseases that doctors prescribe the pill for. But yet, these employers would force women to bear the entire cost of their treatment for these disorders themselves, because their corporation is "Christian". (I'm sorry, but the concept of a corporation -- which is a "person" only in the eyes of the law -- claiming religious protection just seems unbelievable to me. It's not like your local Hobby Lobby store could be baptized.)

As for this bidness about how a business owner should be able to do what he likes in his own store, Ginsburg mentions the social contract in the video. To wit: Living in a society means participating in the social contract. Our social contract in the US now includes Obamacare. Obamacare says employers must provide birth control coverage (subject to certain restrictions on employer size and whatnot). If your business doesn't want to participate in the social contract, that's fine -- then pave your own roads, build your own sewer system, provide your own fire protection if your store catches fire, and on and on.
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Post by SoulBiter »

These are the forms of BC that are provided by Hobby lobby. I see the 'pill' on this list.


Male condoms
Female condoms
Diaphragms with spermicide
Sponges with spermicide
Cervical caps with spermicide
Spermicide alone
Birth-control pills with estrogen and progestin (“Combined Pill)
Birth-control pills with progestin alone (“The Mini Pill)
Birth control pills (extended/continuous use)
Contraceptive patches
Contraceptive rings
Progestin injections
Implantable rods
Vasectomies
Female sterilization surgeries
Female sterilization implants
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aliantha wrote:Employers may now claim a religious exemption and refuse to pay for birth control prescriptions -- for *any* reason. Keep in mind that the pill is prescribed for women for reasons that have zero, zip, zilch, nada to do with pregnancy. One of my daughters was on the pill not because she was having sex and didn't want to get pregnant, but because she suffers from migraines. And there are other hormonally-triggered diseases that doctors prescribe the pill for. But yet, these employers would force women to bear the entire cost of their treatment for these disorders themselves, because their corporation is "Christian". (I'm sorry, but the concept of a corporation -- which is a "person" only in the eyes of the law -- claiming religious protection just seems unbelievable to me. It's not like your local Hobby Lobby store could be baptized.)

As for this bidness about how a business owner should be able to do what he likes in his own store, Ginsburg mentions the social contract in the video. To wit: Living in a society means participating in the social contract. Our social contract in the US now includes Obamacare. Obamacare says employers must provide birth control coverage (subject to certain restrictions on employer size and whatnot). If your business doesn't want to participate in the social contract, that's fine -- then pave your own roads, build your own sewer system, provide your own fire protection if your store catches fire, and on and on.
So which one of these are prescribed for migraines and other hormonally triggered diseases?

1. Plan B
2. Ella, another emergency contraceptive
3. Copper Intrauterine Device
4. IUD with progestin
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Post by aliantha »

I admit that I haven't delved too deeply into what Hobby Lobby didn't want to cover. Seeing your list, RR, I gather that what they're objecting to are devices that keep a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. So they're okay with devices/prescriptions that keep fertilization from happening at all? Which means they're splitting hairs.

Some women can't take the pill, and some women have been on the pill so long that their doctors prescribe them something else -- like an IUD. Hobby Lobby's refusal to pay for them means those women would have to turn to less-effective means of contraception. In this case, it's sticking its nose into its employees' private business. I agree with Ginsburg in this case that privacy of the doctor-patient relationship is paramount.

Emergency contraceptives can be used (and often are, although I don't have the statistics to hand) in cases of rape. Hobby Lobby's stance on this is just cruel. It would force an employee to go through with a pregnancy, no matter how that pregnancy was conceived.
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Post by Cail »

aliantha wrote:Emergency contraceptives can be used (and often are, although I don't have the statistics to hand) in cases of rape. Hobby Lobby's stance on this is just cruel. It would force an employee to go through with a pregnancy, no matter how that pregnancy was conceived.
This is absolutely not true. The employee is free to use whatever form(s) of birth control they wish, Hobby Lobby just doesn't have to provide insurance coverage for it.
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Post by Rawedge Rim »

aliantha wrote:I admit that I haven't delved too deeply into what Hobby Lobby didn't want to cover. Seeing your list, RR, I gather that what they're objecting to are devices that keep a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. So they're okay with devices/prescriptions that keep fertilization from happening at all? Which means they're splitting hairs.

Some women can't take the pill, and some women have been on the pill so long that their doctors prescribe them something else -- like an IUD. Hobby Lobby's refusal to pay for them means those women would have to turn to less-effective means of contraception. In this case, it's sticking its nose into its employees' private business. I agree with Ginsburg in this case that privacy of the doctor-patient relationship is paramount.

Emergency contraceptives can be used (and often are, although I don't have the statistics to hand) in cases of rape. Hobby Lobby's stance on this is just cruel. It would force an employee to go through with a pregnancy, no matter how that pregnancy was conceived.
So is Hobby Lobby going to fire someone if they go into Walgreens and purchase a plan b? And considering that Plan B only runs about $50, how often will it be needed that an insurance company is the only recourse to afford this method of birth control?
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Post by aliantha »

Rawedge Rim wrote:
aliantha wrote:I admit that I haven't delved too deeply into what Hobby Lobby didn't want to cover. Seeing your list, RR, I gather that what they're objecting to are devices that keep a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. So they're okay with devices/prescriptions that keep fertilization from happening at all? Which means they're splitting hairs.

Some women can't take the pill, and some women have been on the pill so long that their doctors prescribe them something else -- like an IUD. Hobby Lobby's refusal to pay for them means those women would have to turn to less-effective means of contraception. In this case, it's sticking its nose into its employees' private business. I agree with Ginsburg in this case that privacy of the doctor-patient relationship is paramount.

Emergency contraceptives can be used (and often are, although I don't have the statistics to hand) in cases of rape. Hobby Lobby's stance on this is just cruel. It would force an employee to go through with a pregnancy, no matter how that pregnancy was conceived.
So is Hobby Lobby going to fire someone if they go into Walgreens and purchase a plan b? And considering that Plan B only runs about $50, how often will it be needed that an insurance company is the only recourse to afford this method of birth control?
How much do you suppose Hobby Lobby pays their part-time workers? Maybe 50 bucks is nothing to you, but it's a significant chunk of money for someone who works 20 hours a week at $8.00 or so an hour.

So Cail, do you think every woman should be on the pill all the time, on the off-chance somebody might rape her?
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Post by SoulBiter »

aliantha wrote: How much do you suppose Hobby Lobby pays their part-time workers? Maybe 50 bucks is nothing to you, but it's a significant chunk of money for someone who works 20 hours a week at $8.00 or so an hour.

So Cail, do you think every woman should be on the pill all the time, on the off-chance somebody might rape her?
Even regular insurance (and insurance provided under ACA) will sometimes not cover what doctors prescribe. Does that also mean they are putting their noses in where it doesn't belong?
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