Ginsburg on Hobby Lobby

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Cail
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Post by Cail »

SerScot wrote:But y'all are saying there would be fewer rapes otherwise why say what you are saying, how many fewer?
What?
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
aliantha wrote:
Cail wrote:If you can't handle having your beliefs challenged, you probably shouldn't post here.
That's twice you've suggested that I leave. Just for that, I'm staying. :P
Based on what I have seen so far, I wouldn't question aliantha's ability to deal with her beliefs being challenged.

Besides, we already suffer from a dearth of posters so suggesting that someone who recently came back should leave is not conducive to rebuilding a thriving Tank community. We are still having to undo the damage done in the past.
Sorry, when someone starts playing the "poor me" card rather than formulating an argument I lose my patience.
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Post by Zarathustra »

I think it's nonsense to talk about women's apparel, but perfectly valid to talk about drinking too much, especially in public. If provocative clothing was correlated to rape, then our beaches would be the rapiest places on the planet. Wearing clothing that causes men to find a woman more appealing is not irresponsible, it's called dating. The entire point of going to a club is hooking up. Wearing clothing that facilitates this doesn't mean you're making it more likely to be raped, just more likely to get laid. The two aren't the same.

I think to tell women that they shouldn't try to seek sexual attraction of men by dressing in ways that facilitate it is denying women their sexuality. There's absolutely nothing wrong or irresponsible in seeking this kind of attention. People don't make decisions about who to rape depending on their clothing. They look for easy targets. A woman who is confident in herself and her appearance--as indicated by provocative clothing--is probably a less likely target.

But alcohol is an entirely different issue, and yes it makes you an easier target.

I think it's ironic that some of the same people who have no fears of leaving a 9 year old girl alone in a park suddenly become fearful of young adults in a club getting raped depending on their clothing. Where are the statistics to back up these fears? Do they show a correlation to clothing? Or are we just accepting "facts" that we've already pre-decided?
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Cail wrote:Sorry, when someone starts playing the "poor me" card rather than formulating an argument I lose my patience.
It's me--apologies not necessary. You've seen my lose my patience before, as well.

On the subject of clothing, what Z said. Getting totally wasted is a much more likely cause of unwanted sexual activity than clothing, a fact to which my wife may personally attest.

That being said, we do still make sure that Leibeschoen doesn't go outside or too school wearing anything which is too "skimpy". She sometimes thinks that she can still wear clothing she got two years ago; although there isn't any difference from 41 to 43 there are sufficient changes from 11 to 13 to make certain articles of clothing unwearable.
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Post by Cail »

And another person who's not paying attention.

I'm not in fear of anyone getting raped. I've made the simple statement that people can dramatically increase their chance of being victims of crimes based on their behavior.

And beaches aren't generally rape-y due to the public nature of them. Rape is often a crime of opportunity, and there's not much opportunity when you're surrounded by people.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by SerScot »

Cail,

You aren't surrounded by people in clubs?
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Post by Zarathustra »

There's nothing wrong with telling your daughters not to wear things that are too skimpy, if that's your personal value system. But to dress it up as a safety issue, in my opinion, denies what it's really about: you don't want your daughter to be perceived as slutty, or even sexy. It's a moral stance, one that downplays her sexuality, i.e. the fact that she wants sex and is a sexual creature. [As a father of sons only, I admit this is easier for me to say.] At some ages, this parental attitude is more appropriate than others. But once she's old enough to go to clubs, for christsake, I think it's insulting to women to deny them their sexuality in this way.
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Post by SerScot »

Zarathustra,

I agree. And my daughter is 11.
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Post by aliantha »

I agree, too, Z. 8O :lol:
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Post by Cail »

SerScot wrote:You aren't surrounded by people in clubs?
Not in the bathrooms, not in the parking lot, not in the cars in the parking lot. And there's lots and lots of booze there.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by SerScot »

Cail,

There aren't bathrooms, parking lots, and lots and lots of booze at the beach?
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Post by Cail »

SerScot wrote:There aren't bathrooms, parking lots, and lots and lots of booze at the beach?
Maybe it's different where you are, but no, there's no booze on the beaches here.

And beaches are a different environment. And it's generally not nighttime when you're at the beach.

Come on man, you have to do better than that.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by SerScot »

Cail,

The beaches on the coast of SC frequently have big dunes right behind the beach, as well as bathrooms and parking lots. Lots of space for privacy.
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Post by Cybrweez »

aliantha wrote:How much do you suppose Hobby Lobby pays their part-time workers? Maybe 50 bucks is nothing to you, but it's a significant chunk of money for someone who works 20 hours a week at $8.00 or so an hour.
Haven't read past the 1st page, but I think this is the crux. It's not about banning or keeping someone from getting something, it's about making people pay for it. The statements about rights are just lies to influence opinion (or ignorance maybe).
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Post by SoulBiter »

Thanks for bringing us back to the topic Cyber...

I dont think there is agreement to be had on this topic. There are those that agree and those that disagree....and both believe very strongly on those reasons. I still say, the first ruling that the govt could force them to provide private insurance and then tell them what it had to cover was the worst and set the stage for the rest of this.
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Post by ussusimiel »

Just in case this got lost in the off-topic welter.
ussusimiel wrote:What I am starting to see in the Hobby Lobby case and a case like Citizen's United is another growing tension (or a variation on previous ones) between how the different groups view the application of the Constitution. One group (the Right?) is happy under all circumstances to trust that strict application of the Constitution will lead to the best outcomes. Another group (the Left) is unhappy about the direction this is taking, especially in relation to things like 'corporate personhood'. This is not only manifesting itself at the political level, but also at the level of the judiciary (regular split decisions).

It becomes politicised as the different sides realise that it suits their political agendas, but, IMO, this masks a much deeper fracture line within US society. Doing a little research on the idea of a Constitutional amendment on 'personhood' (e.g. Move To Amend) I quickly realised that other issues (e.g. abortion) come into the frame, which reinforces my intuition that this is a fundamental issue in the US that is surfacing in more and more places.
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Post by SerScot »

Uss,

I've read that the "personhood" amendment has some issues:

www.huffingtonpost.com/kent-greenfield/ ... 31884.html

From the article:
An amendment is an overreaction.
Though Citizens United was about free speech rights, and the main concern of its opponents is about the power of large, for-profit corporations, the People's Rights Amendment would end all constitutional rights for all entities that are not natural persons. So a private university -- not a natural person -- could be required to start classes with a prayer. The government could prohibit The Huffington Post -- not a natural person -- from printing columns critical of the president. The FBI could seize the servers owned by Google -- not a natural person -- without a warrant. Each of these would be a clear constitutional violation under current law, but would be permitted under the People's Rights Amendment.

Groups are important to progressives.
The notion that constitutional rights are only for people is dangerous to progressive ideas. The freedom of association is constitutionally protected, and ought to be, because humans are social animals -- we organize ourselves in groups to self-identify, to amplify our speech, and to gain and provide mutual support and encouragement. We join the PTA and the Masons; pray in churches, synagogues and mosques; contribute to Planned Parenthood and the National Wildlife Fund; pay union dues to the AFL-CIO or NEA. If constitutional rights were for natural persons only, none of these groups would have constitutional rights, and that would cost us all dearly.

Think about it. Many cases important to progressive ideals were brought by groups, associations, and corporations, not by natural persons. The case that saved Roe v. Wade in 1992 was Planned Parenthood v. Casey. NAACP v. Button was a crucial case in the civil rights movement. When Nixon wanted to quash the publication of the Pentagon Papers, it was the New York Times that fought to protect the public's right to know, in New York Times Co. v United States. Rumsfeld v. FAIR, a case that challenged the Pentagon on Don't Ask Don't Tell, was brought by a non-profit corporation (which I founded and led), which had as its members other non-natural "persons" (universities, law schools, and law school faculties).

Individual rights are not enough.
Some have argued that it would be okay to cut off rights to groups, because individuals would still have rights. We do not need to worry about, say, the New York Times as long as its reporters can exercise freedom of the press. (The People's Right Amendment asserts that it should not "be construed to limit the people's rights of ... freedom of the press," but I presume this means the rights of individual reporters rather than newspaper companies, since those companies are not "natural persons.")

But this answer is unsatisfying. If the New York Times had no constitutional rights of its own, it could be prohibited from printing or distributing its newspapers. Its website could be shut off. Its printing presses could be seized. It could be prohibited from paying employees. The fact that individual reporters would still have rights to distribute homemade handbills or orate from a soapbox would mean little.

A similar analysis works for other groups. If universities can be prohibited from teaching classes about Sharia law, it means little if professors can only teach such classes on their own time in their own living rooms. If Planned Parenthood (and other health care organizations) can be prohibited from performing abortions, it means little that individual women have an abstract right to terminate their pregnancies.

"Personhood" is a red herring.
The main dissent in Citizens United was penned by now-retired Justice John Paul Stevens. He appeared on Colbert last week and was asked about Citizens United. He admitted that, yes, corporations are legal "persons" for some purposes. But how can that be? How can he believe corporations are "persons" but should not have the power to spend limitless amounts on elections? Because personhood is neither here nor there in constitutional analysis. Stevens clarified in his interview, as he did in his dissent, that the constitution sometimes protects "persons" and sometimes not. In other words, the outcome in constitutional cases does not depend on personhood but on whether protecting artificial entities benefits real people.

Progressives once understood this. One of the judicial ancestors of Citizens United is a 1976 case about a Virginia law prohibiting pharmacies from advertising prices. The Court struck down the law, in effect guarding the rights of businesses to advertise in order to protect their human customers' rights to receive information they needed. The personhood or non-personhood of the pharmacies was a non-issue. It is worth reminding current critics of Citizens United that the Virginia pharmacy case was brought by Public Citizen, the consumer rights group co-founded by Ralph Nader.

A constitutional amendment distracts from remedies that are targeted, possible, and effectual.

Any proposed constitutional amendment faces an uphill battle. To gain passage, an amendment has to be endorsed by a two-thirds vote in both chambers of Congress and ratified by three-fourths of the states. Most amendments fail: while scores are proposed each Congress, we have seen only one succeed in the past 40 years. (And that one, a minor rule about congressional salaries, took 200 years to be ratified!)

Meanwhile, there are a number of good ideas worth pursuing to limit the power of Big Money in our politics. Most of these ideas could come through legislative or regulatory enactments requiring no more than a majority vote in Congress and a presidential signature. If we focused our energies and resources on these legislative initiatives rather than on a constitutional amendment, we might achieve meaningful change.
Therefore kneejerk amendments to the U.S. Constitution may not be the best reaction to these decisions.
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Post by Cybrweez »

Such thinking has been mentioned in discussion of Citizens United. Its not that groups having freedom of speech is a problem, its only certain groups. Those I disagree with.

A common refrain in many "liberal" talking points. You have to dig deep to get at the real issue. It's not about banning birth control, it's about forcing others to pay for mine. It's not about groups shouldn't have right to speech, it's about groups we don't like (and I've always wondered, how tolerant are you when you don't want others to talk?).
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Post by ussusimiel »

SerScot wrote:I've read that the "personhood" amendment has some issues...
Thanks for posting the article, SS. I agree that that amendment doesn't look like the solution to the problems that 'liberals' are having with these issues. I am beginning to understand that it is less of a Constitutional issue and more of a 'cultural' one.
Meanwhile, there are a number of good ideas worth pursuing to limit the power of Big Money in our politics. Most of these ideas could come through legislative or regulatory enactments requiring no more than a majority vote in Congress and a presidential signature. If we focused our energies and resources on these legislative initiatives rather than on a constitutional amendment, we might achieve meaningful change.
These issues may only be able to be addressed at the level of Congress (rather than through the Constitution) and for that to happen the current gridlock there will most likely (one way or another) have to come to a head. The growing need for a new and different form of politics (and political party, maybe) in the US may be inextricably interwoven with these issues.

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Post by aliantha »

Cybr, back in my journalism days, we used to say that we knew we were being fair when listeners from both sides of an issue called in to complain. :lol:

SerScot, thanks for the article. The difference I see in Citizens United and the other cases the author mentions is that each of the other decisions served to support something that was for the common good. The NAACP fought for civil rights; the NY Times fought for freedom of the press. It may have been corporations bringing the lawsuit, but the decisions benefited the rights of natural persons.

What right of natural persons is Citizens United fighting for? The right of really rich people to contribute as much money as they want to the political candidate of their choice? What overarching benefit does that grant to society?

I don't think a Constitutional amendment against corporate personhood will ever be ratified. But at least the movement gets the issue out there.
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Post by SerScot »

aliantha,

Constitutional rights apply across the board or not at all. You shouldn't pick and choose which groups get rights based upon the cause they fight for.

If I get the right to speak out against racism. Neo-Nazi's and KKK members get to speak out in favor of it.
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