Libertarianism: the opposing view

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Libertarianism: the opposing view

Post by aliantha »

Saw a link to this on Facebook today, although the article is from Christmas Day 2013. We hear a lot from the Libertarians in the Tank about how great America would be if only their guys were in charge. This author takes four Libertarian tenets to their logical extreme.

Have at it, gentlemen, and happy Friday. 8)
What America Would Look Like if Libertarians Got Their Way

These four libertarian/conservative dystopias are offered, as Rod Serling used to say in "The Twilight Zone," "for your consideration."

The “Libertarian/Conservative”

I’ve qualified my previous writings on libertarianism with disclaimers explaining that I’m addressing a specific, popular subset of libertarian thought. But I’ve still run afoul of dozens of people who say, “I’m a libertarian and I don’t think those things.” I’ve still received comments like those from David Brin, who correctly notes that I’m not addressing libertarians like Friedrich Hayek in my criticism.

True. But Hayek ain’t in the saddle these days. Ayn Rand is leading the posse, to the extent any intellectual figure is. But I'll put my disclaimer upfront this time: I acknowledge that, as libertarian-friendly writer John Danaher puts it, “’libertarianism’ has come to denote a broad, often fractious, group of political theories.”

I suppose it’s only fitting that a philosophy celebrating competing markets would, to a certain extent, be a set of competing markets itself.

But it seems even clearer that a “libertarian” in today’s political environment is almost always someone who ascribes to certain core philosophies: He abhors government, hates taxation, and is hostile to collective action on behalf of the less fortunate. Name any prominent modern libertarian—Ayn Rand, Paul Ryan, Ron Paul, Peter Thiel, Rand Paul—and they are likely to fit this description.

These figures represent a singular and increasingly dominant libertarian vision. To avoid future confusion, I'll give their brand of thought an admittedly imperfect name: “libertarian/conservative.” It is that vision, and their future, which I address here—and it's a frightening future.

1. What if you cut all benefits?

You’ve heard it from Sen. Rand Paul and other conservatives this winter: unemployment benefits increase unemployment. It’s an enormously destructive idea, though absurd on its face. It's like the argument that hospitals create sick people; after all, there are so many of them there.

We usually consider such thinking "primitive" in modern societies.

Yet that's exactly what libertarian/conservatives are arguing when they say that unemployment benefits increased or extend unemployment. There is no credible evidence to suggest that this is true. There is overwhelming evidence suggesting that unemployment is caused by other factors, including poor consumer demand and lack of business confidence.

Right now there are nearly three job seekers for every job opening. That means there are no jobs available for two out of the three. They will not “go out and find work” once their unemployment benefits stop. They will simply plunge into deeper economic misery. They will become like accident victims who are denied hospital care because it would “foster an attitude of dependency.”

But, as absurd and unkind as this thinking is, there’s something even more frightening about it: This kind of thinking never ends. If you believe that unemployment benefits cause unemployment, you’ll cut those benefits off. That could throw millions of people onto the welfare rolls. But if you believe that welfare causes dependency, you’ll cut those benefits off, too. That will leave people utterly dependent on programs like heating oil subsidies, food assistance, and even homeless shelters.

But if you believe that those programs create dependency, too....

It never stops: Close down the homeless shelters. Shut down the Salvation Army. Make it illegal to throw a starving person a coin or toss a blanket over them as they lay on the sidewalk. This logic only ends one way: in a hellish dystopia where the underclass is starving, homeless and dying in droves.

If that seems melodramatic, ask a libertarian/conservative this question: When will you know that your theory is wrong?

2. Nothing but competition.

This idea lies at the heart of libertarian and conservative thinking. The argument says that human beings excel when they are competing with one another for dominance. The free market is the best economic system in the world, we’re told, because private enterprises compete with one another for market share.

This is the thinking behind the movement to privatize government services. In fact, it’s the very same thinking which led the conservative American Enterprise Institute to design the set of policies the world now knows as “Obamacare.”

It’s also wrong. We saw that in the ignominious failure of libertarian Eddie Lambert, the Sears CEO who drove his company into the ground with the misguided notion that internal competition among his company’s departments would cause each of them to function more efficiently. That proved to be an enormously frustrating experience for customers, and ignominious failure for the corporation as a whole.

These ideas, along with a number of other misguided notions, have caused Sears stock to lose more than half its value. (Lynn Parramore has a good roundup of the Lambert fiasco here.) Eddie Lambert’s biggest mistake was believing that, in the words of Bloomberg BusinessWeek, “If the company’s leaders were told to act selfishly… they would run their divisions in a rational manner, boosting overall performance.”

Wrong. It turns out that people who are motivated to act out of self-interest will do whatever it takes to enrich themselves, even if that means damaging the entire society—in this case, the Sears “society”—in the process. Sure, competition “works,” sometimes, for some things. But the Sears experiment showed us that it works best when there is a fabric which knits the competing parts together into something more than the sum of its parts.

We call that something a nation.

Eddie Lambert’s Sears is a nation in microcosm. When its common purpose was lost, the entire enterprise collapsed. Eddie Lambert taught us that that when people act solely out of self-interest, they act destructively toward others, and hurt themselves as well. Everybody loses.

Lambert wanted Sears to teach the nation a lesson, and it did. Selfishness is one of the roads to dystopia.

3. Free-enterprise zones.

The concept of the free-enterprise zone was first popularized by Republican Jack Kemp. Kemp, a football star-turned-House member and vice-presidential candidate (with Bob Dole in 1996), adopted the concept, also known as “urban enterprise zones,” as a campaign theme during his initial rise and a 1988 presidential campaign. It’s based on the belief that economically disadvantaged areas—inner cities or impoverished rural areas—would be revitalized if regulations, minimum wage requirements and tax levels were eased.

This concept is based on two separate but related theories. The first is that employers are likely to be attracted to these struggling areas by the lower cost of doing business there. But a deeper, less frequently articulated theory cuts even closer to theoretical libertarianism: that regulations and taxes are themselves economy-killers. Free-enterprise zones, it was thought, could therefore become laboratory experiments which would demonstrate how much better an economy functions without them.

It didn’t work out that way. A few of the zone’s tools, such as targeted tax breaks, have provided temporary relief in some instances. But overall the experiment has been a singular failure. As one roundup of research on zones put it: “Most of the more sophisticated studies show no increases in employment or per capita income.”

Instead, the one consistent finding across all studies appears to be this: zones typically made money for one or more corporations, but the promised social benefit in jobs and income never materialized.

That hasn’t killed the zone idea, or the many variations on its theme. Statewide initiatives, offered as tax breaks or other incentives, have been equally unsuccessful. The most spectacularly unsuccessful track record in this regard belongs to New Jersey governor Chris Christie, who has offered nearly $2 billion in tax incentives to spur job growth. The result? Job growth in New Jersey lags behind most of the nation, while hundreds of millions in tax breaks went to giant casinos and to large corporations Prudential, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, Verizon, and Panasonic.

The zone idea is truly dystopian in scope, and that’s the idea which refuses to die. The premise is this: The regions inhabited by low-income brown, black, or white citizens should become places where basic worker protections are nullified, and the financial obligations of the wealthy are relaxed even more than they are today.

If this idea is pursued, the zones will become Third World nations within nations in the North American landmass, de facto colonies which have been insourced for corporate convenience. They’ll belch out poisons in their unregulated mines, farms and factories; under-bid one another for jobs and underpay workers while placing them in increasingly unsafe conditions; drain revenue from local, state and federal government; and lower the overall standard of living.

4. The absolute rights of private ownership.

I turn again to Sen. Rand Paul on this issue, because he expresses these ideas clearly and directly (just as he does when I agree with him, on issues of civil liberties and drone warfare), although he has been known to recant somewhat afterwards.

Paul said that he opposed the Civil Rights Act because, he said, "I abhor racism. I think it’s a bad business decision to exclude anybody from your restaurant—but, at the same time, I do believe in private ownership.”

Here’s the dystopian dimension of Sen. Paul’s argument: Governments exist to uphold the law and, at the federal level, to uphold the Constitution. The Civil Rights Law serves both purposes. If “private ownership” is a barrier against these governmental prerogatives, where does it end? If you can’t outlaw discrimination on private property, what can you outlaw: Fraud? Theft? Murder?

In Paul Randian libertarianism there is no limit to the deeds a business owner can commit inside the confines of his own business. Even if laws against theft and murder are upheld, that would almost certainly mean an end to all workplace safety laws, much less minimum wage laws. As with free-enterprise zones, workers (and anyone in the vicinity) could be subject to the dangers of a Bhopal or a Bangladesh clothing factory, and government would be powerless to stop it.

This time the mayhem wouldn’t be limited to some designated places on the map. The entire country would be placed at the legal, economic and environmental mercy of property holders. The nation would be divided into Owners and Others, with the Others given no ability to enforce societal values—even matters of national security—over the Owners.

The counter-argument will often be made that “it can be settled with the free market.” Sen. Paul made that argument himself, when he said he “would not go” to the Woolworth’s which refused to seat African Americans during the civil rights struggle. But people lack alternatives, in an economy increasingly dominated by a few corporations. And they’re unlikely to hear about most of these crimes and injustices, in an era where corporate media are also under “private ownership.”

The unaided needy. Selfishness run riot. A North America dotted with Third World colonies. And a blighted landscape where Others are subjugated to Owners.
***
RJ Eskow is a senior fellow with the Campaign for America's Future.

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Re: Libertarianism: the opposing view

Post by Zarathustra »

aliantha's article wrote:But it seems even clearer that a “libertarian” in today’s political environment is almost always someone who ascribes to certain core philosophies: He abhors government, hates taxation, and is hostile to collective action on behalf of the less fortunate. Name any prominent modern libertarian—Ayn Rand, Paul Ryan, Ron Paul, Peter Thiel, Rand Paul—and they are likely to fit this description.
I disagree with the verbs he chooses to characterize our position. "Abhors," "hates," "hostile" are loaded terms meant to conjure up an image of an emotional, fanatical, extreme position, rather than a rational, thoughtful, pragmatic position. Even when trying to be fair (apparently), this article is not. It's the language you'd use to describe a villain in a victimization narrative.
aliantha's article wrote:It is that vision, and their future, which I address here—and it's a frightening future.
See what I mean? It's a narrative meant to evoke fear, not critical thinking.

aliantha's article wrote:1. What if you cut all benefits?

You’ve heard it from Sen. Rand Paul and other conservatives this winter: unemployment benefits increase unemployment. It’s an enormously destructive idea, though absurd on its face. It's like the argument that hospitals create sick people; after all, there are so many of them there.

We usually consider such thinking "primitive" in modern societies.
Well then, apparently the use of actual evidence rather than argument-by-inapt-analogy is "primitive:"

my counter-evidence wrote:... but a new report from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis has provided another datapoint: extended unemployment benefits tend to actually increase unemployment relative to the baseline.


The authors of the report, Maria Canon and Yang Liu, write:

In summary, we find that the extension of unemployment benefits affected the labor market status of long-term unemployed workers in late 2013. Without extended UI benefits, these unemployed workers would have been more likely to be employed, more likely to exit the labor force, and on average 1.9 percent less likely to remain unemployed in the following period. In short, our simulated early termination of the EUC program lowered the unemployment rate by 3 to 5 basis points, suggesting that the December 2013 expiration of the EUC program might have slightly lowered the unemployment rate in early 2014.
link

Just because hospitals don't cause sickness (well, most of the time ... ) doesn't mean that unemployment benefits don't prolong unemployment. That's merely assuming the very issue in question, and obscuring this assumption by analogy to something else that works on very different principles--in other words, clearly a fallacy. For instance, getting a job is nothing like getting sick. Getting a job or career is something you can (and should) do yourself, whereas hospital care is rarely something we're capable of doing ourselves. Therefore, since people are more likely to get a job than perform surgery on themselves, the same reasons and mechanisms which make hospitals necessary can't be used to claim that extensions of unemployment benefits are equally necessary, not without supposing that people are just as helpless in the job market as they are to be their own doctor.

There is nothing unreasonable about supposing that people aren't as motivated to get a job when they have money already coming in. Besides the fact that it's common sense, there is no parallel in the hospital analogy to this situation, because motivation has nothing to do with the reasons most people need to go to the hospital. The absence of hospitals would in no way affect one's motivation in such a way that made hospitals unnecessary. The analogy thus ignores the possibility of intervening in one's own fate in the case of employment.
aliantha's article wrote:
This logic only ends one way: in a hellish dystopia where the underclass is starving, homeless and dying in droves.

If that seems melodramatic, ask a libertarian/conservative this question: When will you know that your theory is wrong?
When people predict absolute disaster from the implementation of a principle, it's usually a failure of imagination, a failure to conceive of the alternatives which don't square with one's assumptions and predetermined conclusion. It's a caricature.

Few Libertarians advocate no safety net whatsoever. But even assuming they did, it a hellish dystopia need not follow. A government safety net is not the only kind possible. There are charities and churches. In the absence of people assuming that it's not their problem--because the government does it--perhaps people would become more socially conscious and realize they need to act personally, rather than "collectively," (which usually means "someone else's problem").

It does make sense to ask when our policies have failed ... but not before we try them first. Almost anything can be imagined as a failure in a thought experiment.

Let's ask the same question of Big Government types: when is your view shown to be a failure? Isn't any failure always an excuse for more government, more taxing/spending, and more wealth redistribution? When is it enough? Too much? How do you know when it's producing the very problems it claims to be causing?
2. Nothing but competition.

This idea lies at the heart of libertarian and conservative thinking. The argument says that human beings excel when they are competing with one another for dominance. The free market is the best economic system in the world, we’re told, because private enterprises compete with one another for market share.
Competition is only part of the story. Collaboration is also part of the private sector. Dominance isn't necessarily the end goal, but rather excellence and growth.

The rest of your article is equally simplistic, fallacious, hyperbolic, and nonrigorous. It's worthless propaganda undeserving of any further consideration.
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Post by ussusimiel »

I am in the rare position (again) of agreeing with, Z, about this article. There are solid arguments against some libertarian positions, none of which are even broached in this article. This is threadbare emotive scaremongering and actually does a disservice to the actual possible arguments. Those arguments involve deep study and complex reasoning. They are substantive and have no need for scare tactics. They are, however, quite difficult to grasp and communicate. They do not lend themselves to easy consumption, and so, do not lend themselves to punchy eye-catching headlines and emotionally hyperbolic language.

Shame on you, ali, for consorting with intellectual slackers! :lol:

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Post by aliantha »

I did say I found it via Facebook... ;)

Anyway, I think there's some truth behind the strong verbiage. Don't Libertarians hate the idea of being taxed to fund most government programs? Aren't they hostile toward government action on behalf of the less fortunate? Truth *is* the first defense against libel, after all. I didn't think the picture he painted was all that far out there.

And to be honest, the conclusions he draws, while admittedly worst-case-scenario, are no less worst-case-scenario than some of the arguments I've seen against liberal proposals in here.
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Post by Cail »

For some reason Libertarians have entered progressive's crosshairs. God forbid that people be free to live the lives they choose. The article is nothing more than ill-informed scaremongering.
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Post by Orlion »

This gives me an opportunity to use this quote from Facebook! :twisted:

As far as background is concerned, this poster was in a conversation mostly about how John Mills is not a libertarian. One argument for this was that the right to property would be secondary to Mills' principle of utility (property could be seized regardless of rights if overall utility was increased) which would fly in the face of Libertarian philosophy. This rant grew out of that:
Someone wrote:This is to my mind one of the great problems for Libertarians. They are committed to assessing the justice of a given situation historically and there must be rectification of some kind if the distribution has resulted from the past violation of rights. Many Libertarians talk of this need for rectification as if it is some minor detail. But it is not. Particularly when one recognizes that historically almost all cases of acquisition were made in violation of their principles governing acquisition. The history of the world is one of violence and coercion. So how do you begin to rectify centuries of slavery or the genocide of tribes or the repeated breaking of treaties or the systematic exclusion of women from the economy? You can't and its a fucking pipe dream to think that one can (good thing they favor pot legalization). Many Libertarians will respond to this by arguing for a sort of statute of limitations on past wrongs. But this is entirely unprincipled and ad hoc and ignores that those past wrongs shape the current distribution today in such a fashion as to make it objectionable by their very own theory. This is one of the reasons I reject Libertarianism though not the only reason.
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Post by ussusimiel »

Cail wrote:For some reason Libertarians have entered progressive's crosshairs.
I presume this is meant to be funny. Although Libertarians and 'liberals' share a common interest in protecting civil liberties, it's hardly ever 'Hug-A-Liberal-Day!' in Libertarianland :lol:

I've no doubt the experience is the same when Libertarians interact with conservatives. While the strict adherence to certain principles would please them no end; no doubt the classic liberal principles (which lead to same-sex-marriage, legalisation of drugs etc.) drive large portions of the Right up the wall! :lol:

It is certainly one of the things that I admire about principled Libertarians, they seek no favour from anyone. Unfortunately for them this means that they remain peripheral in political terms.

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Post by aliantha »

To "seek no favour from anyone" is one thing. To actively circle the wagons and hoard what's yours, to the detriment of the common good, is quite another.

That's my big objection to Libertarianism. I'm on board with everybody living their lives as they see fit when it comes to most social issues. But if everybody's grasping their last penny close to their chests, then it's absurd to expect charities to take care of all of the least well-off among us. Where are the charities supposed to get their funds from? The penny-pinching rich, who give them a few dollars so they can get the tax write-off?

I dunno. I'll never be rich, I expect. But that's okay -- I'd rather be kind.
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Post by SoulBiter »

aliantha wrote:The penny-pinching rich, who give them a few dollars so they can get the tax write-off?

I dunno. I'll never be rich, I expect. But that's okay -- I'd rather be kind.
I thought I would see where that statement landed and it landed pretty dead on. The rich are pretty miserly when it comes to giving. Usually less than 2%. The middle class do better, on average giving around 8%. Matter of fact, the more wealthy the person, the less percentage of their wealth they give.

I have to say that corresponds to giving at Church. I know someone (Vraith maybe) mentioned he wished less people would give to Churches. Yet, only about 5% if Church goers tithe (10%). Of those that tithe, 75% give between 13% and 20%. Less than 50% give anything at all.
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Post by aliantha »

Thanks for the confirmation, SB. 8)
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Re: Libertarianism: the opposing view

Post by Wildling »

aliantha wrote:Saw a link to this on Facebook today, although the article is from Christmas Day 2013. We hear a lot from the Libertarians in the Tank about how great America would be if only their guys were in charge. This author takes four Libertarian tenets to their logical extreme.

Have at it, gentlemen, and happy Friday. 8)
What America Would Look Like if Libertarians Got Their Way

These four libertarian/conservative dystopias are offered, as Rod Serling used to say in "The Twilight Zone," "for your consideration."

The “Libertarian/Conservative”

I’ve qualified my previous writings on libertarianism with disclaimers explaining that I’m addressing a specific, popular subset of libertarian thought. But I’ve still run afoul of dozens of people who say, “I’m a libertarian and I don’t think those things.” I’ve still received comments like those from David Brin, who correctly notes that I’m not addressing libertarians like Friedrich Hayek in my criticism.

True. But Hayek ain’t in the saddle these days. Ayn Rand is leading the posse, to the extent any intellectual figure is. But I'll put my disclaimer upfront this time: I acknowledge that, as libertarian-friendly writer John Danaher puts it, “’libertarianism’ has come to denote a broad, often fractious, group of political theories.”

I suppose it’s only fitting that a philosophy celebrating competing markets would, to a certain extent, be a set of competing markets itself.

But it seems even clearer that a “libertarian” in today’s political environment is almost always someone who ascribes to certain core philosophies: He abhors government, hates taxation, and is hostile to collective action on behalf of the less fortunate. Name any prominent modern libertarian—Ayn Rand, Paul Ryan, Ron Paul, Peter Thiel, Rand Paul—and they are likely to fit this description.

These figures represent a singular and increasingly dominant libertarian vision. To avoid future confusion, I'll give their brand of thought an admittedly imperfect name: “libertarian/conservative.” It is that vision, and their future, which I address here—and it's a frightening future.

1. What if you cut all benefits?

You’ve heard it from Sen. Rand Paul and other conservatives this winter: unemployment benefits increase unemployment. It’s an enormously destructive idea, though absurd on its face. It's like the argument that hospitals create sick people; after all, there are so many of them there.

We usually consider such thinking "primitive" in modern societies.

Yet that's exactly what libertarian/conservatives are arguing when they say that unemployment benefits increased or extend unemployment. There is no credible evidence to suggest that this is true. There is overwhelming evidence suggesting that unemployment is caused by other factors, including poor consumer demand and lack of business confidence.

Right now there are nearly three job seekers for every job opening. That means there are no jobs available for two out of the three. They will not “go out and find work” once their unemployment benefits stop. They will simply plunge into deeper economic misery. They will become like accident victims who are denied hospital care because it would “foster an attitude of dependency.”

But, as absurd and unkind as this thinking is, there’s something even more frightening about it: This kind of thinking never ends. If you believe that unemployment benefits cause unemployment, you’ll cut those benefits off. That could throw millions of people onto the welfare rolls. But if you believe that welfare causes dependency, you’ll cut those benefits off, too. That will leave people utterly dependent on programs like heating oil subsidies, food assistance, and even homeless shelters.

But if you believe that those programs create dependency, too....

It never stops: Close down the homeless shelters. Shut down the Salvation Army. Make it illegal to throw a starving person a coin or toss a blanket over them as they lay on the sidewalk. This logic only ends one way: in a hellish dystopia where the underclass is starving, homeless and dying in droves.

If that seems melodramatic, ask a libertarian/conservative this question: When will you know that your theory is wrong?

2. Nothing but competition.

This idea lies at the heart of libertarian and conservative thinking. The argument says that human beings excel when they are competing with one another for dominance. The free market is the best economic system in the world, we’re told, because private enterprises compete with one another for market share.

This is the thinking behind the movement to privatize government services. In fact, it’s the very same thinking which led the conservative American Enterprise Institute to design the set of policies the world now knows as “Obamacare.”

It’s also wrong. We saw that in the ignominious failure of libertarian Eddie Lambert, the Sears CEO who drove his company into the ground with the misguided notion that internal competition among his company’s departments would cause each of them to function more efficiently. That proved to be an enormously frustrating experience for customers, and ignominious failure for the corporation as a whole.

These ideas, along with a number of other misguided notions, have caused Sears stock to lose more than half its value. (Lynn Parramore has a good roundup of the Lambert fiasco here.) Eddie Lambert’s biggest mistake was believing that, in the words of Bloomberg BusinessWeek, “If the company’s leaders were told to act selfishly… they would run their divisions in a rational manner, boosting overall performance.”

Wrong. It turns out that people who are motivated to act out of self-interest will do whatever it takes to enrich themselves, even if that means damaging the entire society—in this case, the Sears “society”—in the process. Sure, competition “works,” sometimes, for some things. But the Sears experiment showed us that it works best when there is a fabric which knits the competing parts together into something more than the sum of its parts.

We call that something a nation.

Eddie Lambert’s Sears is a nation in microcosm. When its common purpose was lost, the entire enterprise collapsed. Eddie Lambert taught us that that when people act solely out of self-interest, they act destructively toward others, and hurt themselves as well. Everybody loses.

Lambert wanted Sears to teach the nation a lesson, and it did. Selfishness is one of the roads to dystopia.

3. Free-enterprise zones.

The concept of the free-enterprise zone was first popularized by Republican Jack Kemp. Kemp, a football star-turned-House member and vice-presidential candidate (with Bob Dole in 1996), adopted the concept, also known as “urban enterprise zones,” as a campaign theme during his initial rise and a 1988 presidential campaign. It’s based on the belief that economically disadvantaged areas—inner cities or impoverished rural areas—would be revitalized if regulations, minimum wage requirements and tax levels were eased.

This concept is based on two separate but related theories. The first is that employers are likely to be attracted to these struggling areas by the lower cost of doing business there. But a deeper, less frequently articulated theory cuts even closer to theoretical libertarianism: that regulations and taxes are themselves economy-killers. Free-enterprise zones, it was thought, could therefore become laboratory experiments which would demonstrate how much better an economy functions without them.

It didn’t work out that way. A few of the zone’s tools, such as targeted tax breaks, have provided temporary relief in some instances. But overall the experiment has been a singular failure. As one roundup of research on zones put it: “Most of the more sophisticated studies show no increases in employment or per capita income.”

Instead, the one consistent finding across all studies appears to be this: zones typically made money for one or more corporations, but the promised social benefit in jobs and income never materialized.

That hasn’t killed the zone idea, or the many variations on its theme. Statewide initiatives, offered as tax breaks or other incentives, have been equally unsuccessful. The most spectacularly unsuccessful track record in this regard belongs to New Jersey governor Chris Christie, who has offered nearly $2 billion in tax incentives to spur job growth. The result? Job growth in New Jersey lags behind most of the nation, while hundreds of millions in tax breaks went to giant casinos and to large corporations Prudential, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, Verizon, and Panasonic.

The zone idea is truly dystopian in scope, and that’s the idea which refuses to die. The premise is this: The regions inhabited by low-income brown, black, or white citizens should become places where basic worker protections are nullified, and the financial obligations of the wealthy are relaxed even more than they are today.

If this idea is pursued, the zones will become Third World nations within nations in the North American landmass, de facto colonies which have been insourced for corporate convenience. They’ll belch out poisons in their unregulated mines, farms and factories; under-bid one another for jobs and underpay workers while placing them in increasingly unsafe conditions; drain revenue from local, state and federal government; and lower the overall standard of living.

4. The absolute rights of private ownership.

I turn again to Sen. Rand Paul on this issue, because he expresses these ideas clearly and directly (just as he does when I agree with him, on issues of civil liberties and drone warfare), although he has been known to recant somewhat afterwards.

Paul said that he opposed the Civil Rights Act because, he said, "I abhor racism. I think it’s a bad business decision to exclude anybody from your restaurant—but, at the same time, I do believe in private ownership.”

Here’s the dystopian dimension of Sen. Paul’s argument: Governments exist to uphold the law and, at the federal level, to uphold the Constitution. The Civil Rights Law serves both purposes. If “private ownership” is a barrier against these governmental prerogatives, where does it end? If you can’t outlaw discrimination on private property, what can you outlaw: Fraud? Theft? Murder?

In Paul Randian libertarianism there is no limit to the deeds a business owner can commit inside the confines of his own business. Even if laws against theft and murder are upheld, that would almost certainly mean an end to all workplace safety laws, much less minimum wage laws. As with free-enterprise zones, workers (and anyone in the vicinity) could be subject to the dangers of a Bhopal or a Bangladesh clothing factory, and government would be powerless to stop it.

This time the mayhem wouldn’t be limited to some designated places on the map. The entire country would be placed at the legal, economic and environmental mercy of property holders. The nation would be divided into Owners and Others, with the Others given no ability to enforce societal values—even matters of national security—over the Owners.

The counter-argument will often be made that “it can be settled with the free market.” Sen. Paul made that argument himself, when he said he “would not go” to the Woolworth’s which refused to seat African Americans during the civil rights struggle. But people lack alternatives, in an economy increasingly dominated by a few corporations. And they’re unlikely to hear about most of these crimes and injustices, in an era where corporate media are also under “private ownership.”

The unaided needy. Selfishness run riot. A North America dotted with Third World colonies. And a blighted landscape where Others are subjugated to Owners.
***
RJ Eskow is a senior fellow with the Campaign for America's Future.

[url=
www.alternet.org/what-america-would-loo ... 1#bookmark]link[/url]
Any argument taken to it's logical extreme is going to be scary and bad. That's my problem with articles like this.

Even assuming a group of Libertarians took over the government tomorrow and could do whatever they wanted these kinds of extremes would never happen simply because not every one of them are as fanatical as the next guy. There's going to be variances in how much government is necessary, when "charity" becomes "keeping drug dealers from getting real jobs", etc.
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Post by Vraith »

ussusimiel wrote:
Cail wrote:For some reason Libertarians have entered progressive's crosshairs.
I presume this is meant to be funny. Although Libertarians and 'liberals' share a common interest in protecting civil liberties, it's hardly ever 'Hug-A-Liberal-Day!' in Libertarianland :lol:

I've no doubt the experience is the same when Libertarians interact with conservatives. While the strict adherence to certain principles would please them no end; no doubt the classic liberal principles (which lead to same-sex-marriage, legalisation of drugs etc.) drive large portions of the Right up the wall! :lol:

It is certainly one of the things that I admire about principled Libertarians, they seek no favour from anyone. Unfortunately for them this means that they remain peripheral in political terms.

u.
I don't know about that.
I think the reason a fair number of progressives have started going after Libertarians [and it does seem to be a growth area of pund-and-poli-ville], is because in every case I can think of right now, when a Libertarian decides, for whatever reason, to attach him/herself to either the Dem or the Rep party s/he/they ALWAYS choose the Reps.
They may be a mix of Con, Lib, and Ind...but if they HAVE to make a deal, [or get votes] it is always with the right/cons.
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Post by Cail »

ussusimiel wrote:
Cail wrote:For some reason Libertarians have entered progressive's crosshairs.
I presume this is meant to be funny. Although Libertarians and 'liberals' share a common interest in protecting civil liberties, it's hardly ever 'Hug-A-Liberal-Day!' in Libertarianland :lol:

I've no doubt the experience is the same when Libertarians interact with conservatives. While the strict adherence to certain principles would please them no end; no doubt the classic liberal principles (which lead to same-sex-marriage, legalisation of drugs etc.) drive large portions of the Right up the wall! :lol:

It is certainly one of the things that I admire about principled Libertarians, they seek no favour from anyone. Unfortunately for them this means that they remain peripheral in political terms.

u.
Nope, not being funny. My liberal friends are constantly posting drivel like this on Facebook, and it's borderline offensive. Might as well make a crack about all Republicans wanting to keep women barefoot and pregnant, or all Democrats wanting to give everyone's money to welfare queens.

Any position taken to a ridiculous extreme is going to look ridiculous. Thoughtful people generally avoid such foolishness.
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Post by aliantha »

Cail wrote:Might as well make a crack about all Republicans wanting to keep women barefoot and pregnant
You don't see those? Because they're out there. ;)
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Post by ussusimiel »

Cail wrote:
ussusimiel wrote:
Cail wrote:For some reason Libertarians have entered progressive's crosshairs.
I presume this is meant to be funny. Although Libertarians and 'liberals' share a common interest in protecting civil liberties, it's hardly ever 'Hug-A-Liberal-Day!' in Libertarianland :lol:....
Nope, not being funny. My liberal friends are constantly posting drivel like this on Facebook, and it's borderline offensive. Might as well make a crack about all Republicans wanting to keep women barefoot and pregnant, or all Democrats wanting to give everyone's money to welfare queens.....
The reason I thought you were being ironic is that my recent experience of the Libertarian attitude towards the Left is one of relentless attack. The common ground is almost never referred to and the Left is constantly being characterised as a position of absolutely no value. As a 'liberal' the feeling is of being constantly 'in the crosshairs'. For a Libertarian to claim that they are experiencing similar feelings just seemed a bit funny to me *shrug*

However, I acknowledge that there may be a difference in the nature of criticism being levelled. Emotion-laden scare-mongering is not substantive debate, and is most likely arising from fear. Libertarianism offers substantive critiques of the Left's assumptions and presumptions. The response should be to examine the beliefs and 'principles' challenged rather than lashing out at what has upset us.

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Post by Cail »

ussusimiel wrote:
Cail wrote:
ussusimiel wrote:I presume this is meant to be funny. Although Libertarians and 'liberals' share a common interest in protecting civil liberties, it's hardly ever 'Hug-A-Liberal-Day!' in Libertarianland :lol:....
Nope, not being funny. My liberal friends are constantly posting drivel like this on Facebook, and it's borderline offensive. Might as well make a crack about all Republicans wanting to keep women barefoot and pregnant, or all Democrats wanting to give everyone's money to welfare queens.....
The reason I thought you were being ironic is that my recent experience of the Libertarian attitude towards the Left is one of relentless attack. The common ground is almost never referred to and the Left is constantly being characterised as a position of absolutely no value. As a 'liberal' the feeling is of being constantly 'in the crosshairs'. For a Libertarian to claim that they are experiencing similar feelings just seemed a bit funny to me *shrug*

However, I acknowledge that there may be a difference in the nature of criticism being levelled. Emotion-laden scare-mongering is not substantive debate, and is most likely arising from fear. Libertarianism offers substantive critiques of the Left's assumptions and presumptions. The response should be to examine the beliefs and 'principles' challenged rather than lashing out at what has upset us.

u.
I can't speak to your experience. But if you are taking criticism of our current administration as criticism of the left, then that might be the issue. Our country is led by an egotistical political novice who has no interest in governing, only in self-promotion. The Obama years will be remembered as being horrible for the poor and for minorities, and for economically harming everyone other than their donors.

I am a huge supporter of many "liberal" policies, and I'd embrace any administration that implemented them.
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Post by ussusimiel »

Cail wrote:I can't speak to your experience. But if you are taking criticism of our current administration as criticism of the left, then that might be the issue. Our country is led by an egotistical political novice who has no interest in governing, only in self-promotion. The Obama years will be remembered as being horrible for the poor and for minorities, and for economically harming everyone other than their donors.
This may be the case. At this stage it is clear to most people that Obama's presidency has been an unmitigated disaster (so much so that I'm even on record as supporting Rand Paul for the Rep. nomination for the next election :lol: ). What may be happening is that frustration with the current administration is leading to a critique of the Left that is based on Obama's behaviour. Conflating Obama with 'liberal' doesn't leave much room for defence :?

Not to worry, I'll just have to keep my defence of 'liberalism' out of Obama-related threads :lol:

u.
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Aliantha,

If you take any philosophy or political position to the extremes you get nonsense. That's why those who oppose them like to deploy the ole' ad absurdum argument.

Suppose we do that with people who like the more extensive Welfare State. Do you really think we can't come up with absurd outcomes using the logic applied to extensive welfare States?

Real discussion of these issues needs to be more focused upon where we would like to see the borders of government power drawn. As I fall into the libertarian spectrum I'd like to see Government power more strickly limited than it is today. That doesn't mean I will delight at people dieing in the street of malnutrition as the absurdist critics of libertarian thought will claim.

Perhaps we should consider whether absurdist hypotheticals, about any political philosophy, really further discussion or if they only serve to poision the well for real discussion and perhaps real movement toward realistic political accomedation.

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Post by Cail »

ussusimiel wrote:
Cail wrote:I can't speak to your experience. But if you are taking criticism of our current administration as criticism of the left, then that might be the issue. Our country is led by an egotistical political novice who has no interest in governing, only in self-promotion. The Obama years will be remembered as being horrible for the poor and for minorities, and for economically harming everyone other than their donors.
This may be the case. At this stage it is clear to most people that Obama's presidency has been an unmitigated disaster (so much so that I'm even on record as supporting Rand Paul for the Rep. nomination for the next election :lol: ). What may be happening is that frustration with the current administration is leading to a critique of the Left that is based on Obama's behaviour. Conflating Obama with 'liberal' doesn't leave much room for defence :?
Right. This is why the ridiculous tribalism within the two parties is killing us.

There is nothing partisan about pointing out what an inept president Obama's been. By the same token, Obama is not representative of the entire Democrat party, or of Liberals in general.
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Zarathustra »

Vraith wrote:
I think the reason a fair number of progressives have started going after Libertarians, is because in every case I can think of right now, when a Libertarian decides, for whatever reason, to attach him/herself to either the Dem or the Rep party s/he/they ALWAYS choose the Reps.
They may be a mix of Con, Lib, and Ind...but if they HAVE to make a deal, [or get votes] it is always with the right/cons.
I think the reason progressives are going after Libertarians is because Rand Paul is the first Libertarian-ish candidate to have a chance of winning the White House.

I do get your point about Libertarians seeming to be more aligned with Republicans than Dems. To an outsider, they might look the like Reps' rebellious little brother. Or cousin. But if you read sites like Reason.com, you'll see plenty of criticisms of Republicans, probably just as much as for the Dems.

I think that both parties, Rep/Dem, espouse many of the tenets as the Libertarians, but then both parties--or more precisely, their leaders--violate these very tenets. Dems claim to want drug legalization and gay marriage, but we've only seen this start to become a reality in the last few years. Even Obama waited for the polls before changing his mind on gay marriage (freakin' Cheney beat him on that one, for christsake!). And while Obama has eased up enforcement for some drug related issues, he won't end the drug war or even change the scheduling for pot so that it's no longer treated like heroin.

Reps, meanwhile, claim to be the party of small government, but keep increasing it every year.

So why would Libertarians lean Right (or Republican) when both parties are hypocrites? I think you have to look at the cases when they're not being hypocrites. Dems openly admit they favor government solutions, bigger government, more regulation, universal healthcare, higher taxes, more handouts, more wealth redistribution, etc. Republicans at least cut taxes every once in a while.

But the key is to look at the voters. A Libertarian can succeed politically as a Republican because its voting base is a hell of a lot more conservative (fiscally/small government) than the Republican politicians themselves. On the other hand, the Democrat voters are a hell of a lot more authoritarian than the Dem leaders could ever get away with. That's why Obama is such a disappointment even to them. He didn't wield the "stick" of the federal government enough, to beat our society into shape. He didn't punish Bush, or Wall Street, or those damn "terrorists" in Nevada. He didn't unleash the Utopian power of the Rich to help the poor. So instead of seeing the failure of their policies, they just think Obama wasn't Democratic enough.

No Libertarian has a chance of convincing the core Dems. They're socialists, though some don't even admit it to themselves.
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