Was Kasreyn of the Gyre....

[peter]

......the first example of an Insequant in the Chrons.

I mean - who was he?; where did he spring from with his occular theurgy?

{While I'm here, I found a great reference in TOT the other day about the far side of The Great Dessert [is that what it was called] beyond Brathairelm, said to be composed of sands of every hue and color imaginable - a sort of sand bound Elemesnedene. It makes me hanker to know more of this World. I wish SRD was not such a writterly prig and would sacrifice his literary reputation producing ream after [money driven] ream of 'Land' connected add-ons telling us all about the rest of the World. Trust my favorite author to be the only one in existance who [contrary to Samuel Johnsons belief] is not interested in 'filthy lucre'!}

[wayfriend]

Just FYI: Other theads on this topic:

Kasreyn as Insequent

Could Kasreyn of the Gyre be Insequent?

Was SRD aware of the Insequent before the Last Chronicles?

[peter]

Well researched there Peter.

I'm going to take the liberty of responding to some of the points raised in the threads above here chiefly because I can't work out quite where else to put them and there's nothing in life like stirring the pot of confusion a little more if you can .

Firstly in respect of the general view that Kasreyn was not an insequant I would say 'indubitably!' But was the the early template upon which the idea of the Insequant crystalised? This is a more subtle form of idea than the 'was he/wasn't he' approach - and may have more legs.

Secondly, a number of posters made the point that Kasreyn was 'a human' whose arts were learned. So [I'm sure] were the Insequant. I'm sure this is explicitly stated somewhere in the Last Chrons.

Finally there was a general agreement that no Insequant would have allowed himself to be 'enslaved by a Croyal'. Fair point as far as it goes, but there are problems. Many of the insequant we encountered were certainly arrogent enough to believe they could enter into a pact with a Croyel {which after all is what Croyel do - they don't ensnare unwilling victims do they?} and come out topside of the agreement. And what other way is there to study the Croyel fully than by entering into a union with one - you can't exactly sit looking at one for hours and learn much thereby. And have we evidence that Kasreyn was in fact 'damned' by his association; how did he die in the end [I haven't reached that part in my re-read yet; some bastard gave me 'Game of Thrones' half way through].

Anyway - sorry again for confusing the thread issue. Perhaps the [now 4] threads can be cobbled together into a 'multi-thread' [sort of like the Multiverse only smaller ].

[Horrim Carabal]

Findail kicked his arse, that's how he died.

Covenant threatened to kick his arse, but Kasreyn was in his chair charged with stolen wild magic and apparently the fight might have damaged th Arch.

So Findail killed the croyel, which killed Kasreyn. No need for TC to do anything.

Although once Kasreyn was dead the wild magic he stole got loose and destroyed his tower. I remember Covenent's friends looking up from te city and thinking TC had just killed Kasreyn. But no, it was Findail.

[peter]

Didn't he shape-shift into some kind of Elohim-form polythene bag which [in the nature of all polythene bags] immediately found it's way onto the croyel-babies head and suffocated it?

{Why couldn't I remember that when I posted my last post in this thread, which (though I say it myself), was a damn fine bit of posting. }

[Horrim Carabal]

Didn't he shape-shift into some kind of Elohim-form polythene bag which [in the nature of all polythene bags] immediately found it's way onto the croyel-babies head and suffocated it?

He sure did.

[peter]

One of my favourite villain's Kasreyn - something pantomime about him but he did have style.

[wayfriend]

... One of those villains that seems so reasonable in his villainy.

[DrPaul]

From Chapter 1 of AATE:

...he [Covenant] followed Lord Foul backward in time... the Despiser considered the Insequent, rejecting them because their theurgies were too dissociated to serve him... Earlier still, he spent an age of failure with the cunning folk who would one day give birth to Kasreyn of the Gyre.

In short, Kasreyn wasn't an Insequent, and all we're told about his origins is a snippet about a "cunning folk" who lived in the distant past.

[peter]

Damn fine bit of quoting DrPaul. To pull a single line from 10 books like that....respect!

[wayfriend]

Agree. Beautiful find. And, I think, we now have a clear and authoritative answer.

[Horrim Carabal]

"An age of failure..."

Was Foul trying to corrupt them, learn from them, what do you think?

[DrPaul]

"An age of failure..."

Was Foul trying to corrupt them, learn from them, what do you think?

Probably both, althought we'd need SRD to tell us more of the backstory to be sure. I think it's also quite likely that he succeeded, in a sense, in corrupting them (Exhibit A: Kasreyn bargaining with a croyel). However, he probably did not corrupt them in a way that helped him to achieve his ultimate aims, so it would have been a failure in that sense. The obvious comparison is with his work among the Demimages of Vidik Amar; he induced them to self-destruct by creating the quellvisks but this also didn't help him to break free of the Arch of Time.

[DrPaul]

Peter and wayfriend, thanks for the flattering words. However I think a statement about the origins of a character as important and interesting as Kasreyn would be more likely to stick in one's mind than (say) one of many sentences from Linden's dialogues and streams of consciousness.