Scottish Independence

[peter]

I tried to get the papers to say it but they declined [or at least failed to print my letters], our politicians and pundits will never say it - out of misplaced pride or hubris and so I'll say it here.

A message to any Scottish people who may pass through these pages; Please don't vote 'Yes' on September 18 - we need you. We really are 'Better Together.'

[Vraith]

I tried to get the papers to say it but they declined [or at least failed to print my letters], our politicians and pundits will never say it - out of misplaced pride or hubris and so I'll say it here.

A message to any Scottish people who may pass through these pages; Please don't vote 'Yes' on September 18 - we need you. We really are 'Better Together.'

I wish Scotland would vote to join the U.S., 51'st state.
That would be cool on so many levels.

[aliantha]

Heck, let's have all y'all join the US! Group hug!

[Wildling]

I tried to get the papers to say it but they declined [or at least failed to print my letters], our politicians and pundits will never say it - out of misplaced pride or hubris and so I'll say it here.

A message to any Scottish people who may pass through these pages; Please don't vote 'Yes' on September 18 - we need you. We really are 'Better Together.'

I wish Scotland would vote to join the U.S., 51'st state.
That would be cool on so many levels.

Hey now, they can't be # 51. Canada already has dibs on that number. Scotland can be # 52 or 53 or whatever.

[I'm Murrin]

Why would any industrialised western nation want to take a step backward by joining the US?

[peter]

Why would any industrialised western nation want to take a step backward by joining the US?

[Vraith]

Why would any industrialised western nation want to take a step backward by joining the US?

Because

My own

Spoiler

little bunny rabbit

shiny new state, with ACCENTS!. I will name him George, and I will hug him and pet him and squeeze him...

Spoiler

Daffy Duck: I'm not a bunny rabbit...
Hugo the Abominable Snowman:

...and pat him and pet him and...

Spoiler

Daffy Duck: You're hurting me. Put me down, please.
Hugo the Abominable Snowman:

...and rub him and caress him and...

Spoiler

Daffy Duck: You're hurting me.

[aliantha]

I tried to get the papers to say it but they declined [or at least failed to print my letters], our politicians and pundits will never say it - out of misplaced pride or hubris and so I'll say it here.

A message to any Scottish people who may pass through these pages; Please don't vote 'Yes' on September 18 - we need you. We really are 'Better Together.'

I wish Scotland would vote to join the U.S., 51'st state.
That would be cool on so many levels.

Hey now, they can't be # 51. Canada already has dibs on that number. Scotland can be # 52 or 53 or whatever.

Mexico would be #52, if we could get past that whole "Spanish as an official US language" issue.

OTOH, we'll have the same problem with Quebec.

Hey, I know! We could just force 'em all to speak English. Yeah, that's it! Problem solved!

[TheFallen]

Hey, I know! We could just force 'em all to speak English. Yeah, that's it! Problem solved!

Well not really. Why force 'em all to speak a language in which you lot don't even have the beginnings of fluency, let alone mastery?

You'd be better forcing 'em to speak American - it's far less complex and demonstrably far easier for less gifted brains to handle...

[Wildling]

Why would any industrialised western nation want to take a step backward by joining the US?

Point taken. But you might want to ask our Prime Minister the same question. He seems to believe that anything that happens in American politics is how it's supposed to be done.

Mexico would be #52, if we could get past that whole "Spanish as an official US language" issue.

OTOH, we'll have the same problem with Quebec.

Hey, I know! We could just force 'em all to speak English. Yeah, that's it! Problem solved!

Pffft. I'd leave Quebec out of it. Too many issues.

[aliantha]

You'd be better forcing 'em to speak American - it's far less complex and demonstrably far easier for less gifted brains to handle...

Hahaha. Haha. Ha.

[peter]

Pffft. Now there's an underused expletive[?] if ever there was one.

Actually - all joining the USA is not such a bad idea. Lets put it like this - if there were one country whose culture, way of life, the whole shebang were to become the template on which all peoples of the world were going to live, then I can think of no better candidate than the USA's.

Exept of course ours [the UK]. ( )

[I'm Murrin]

All I can say is that I strongly disagree on that.

[peter]

So do I actually M. - it was more humerous than serious. I do believe however western liberal democracy is probably the least repressive form of governance - given that quite possibly all forms of governance are to be viewed with suspicion, even functioning at there best.

[I'm Murrin]

Still, the US is far from the best model of even that. The further you get from true multi-party democracy (such as having a rigid two-party system instead), the less effectively it functions. You can see this now from the increasing polarisation of the US parties which has led to the near complete inability to pass meaningful legislation. And that, in turn, has led to the expansion of the executive power of the President, gradually undermining the system of democratic rule.

[Orlion]

Still, the US is far from the best model of even that. The further you get from true multi-party democracy (such as having a rigid two-party system instead), the less effectively it functions. You can see this now from the increasing polarisation of the US parties which has led to the near complete inability to pass meaningful legislation. And that, in turn, has led to the expansion of the executive power of the President, gradually undermining the system of democratic rule.

Someone has been watching Fox news

[I'm Murrin]

No, just paying attention to reality. Fox News is not known for doing that, although I personally, as someone outside the US, have never had the misfortune of being made to watch it myself.

The problem is systemic. Over the course of the couple centuries of the US' existence the systems and laws have been set up in such a way that the two-party system became unassailable, and polarisation became inevitable. I mean, it's not like an open, robust multi-party system is infallible - see Belgium, where there are so many small parties in parliament that their governments keep collapsing and they even went for over a year with no government in place - but it's better to trend that way than to have such a closed off system with severely limited choice.

Britain is not quite as bad as the US, but it still tends toward the two-party binary. We'd need to have an extended period of multi-party rule and a more fractured parliament to break the majority of the public out of the pattern of thinking only Labour or the Conservatives are viable options.

[Orlion]

I really do not see the practical issue. Once public opinion changes, policy changes. We've seen it with, for example, same sex marriage. Not even ten years ago, the liberal Messiah Bill Clinton signed DOMA into law. Now, the current Democratic President supports legislation for same sex marriage legislation.

The "two party problem" depends on the two parties being static, not changing. And that is not the case, they are dynamic and change according to the public feelings of the time. Just for consistency sake, the Democratic Party is completely different from its incarnation decades ago (remember, the Democratic Party supported keeping the slavery system in place... they were not always the liberal party they are now).

Really, my main concern with the US is that it tends towards Fascism.

[michaelm]

Well neither the US or the UK come out on top of many lists of 'bests' whenever they are measured. I know they are somewhat subjective, but neither country is at the top of lists of highest standard of living, most freedom of press, best healthcare, longest life expectancy, etc.

I moved from the UK to the US years ago and I see both countries having issues with looking at the world through anything other than rose tinted glasses.

The UK is too backwards looking, remembering the days of the British Empire or standing strong against Nazi Germany, but does little to maintain a good standard of living for the population and is currently dismantling the social welfare systems and allowing private enterprises to take over more and more of the running of the country.

The US on the other hand is too focused on things of little importance and pays too little attention to the outside world. Poverty, literacy rates (REAL literacy rates, not applying just the international definition of attending 5 or more years of school), lack of healthcare, out of control gun culture are all things that should be important, but too many people repeat the same tired, meaningless mantras that they have been taught to repeat.

I think the US and the UK will gradually get worse, as the populations of both countries have been taught to fear change. Even change that would benefit them has been spun to the point of them fearing that it would change their lives for the worse.

Not to mention the pitiful state of government in both countries: in the US nothing gets done because of the deadlock between House and Senate; and in the UK there isn't even enough confidence in any of the parties for any of them to win the vote outright and a party without a majority is calling the shots.

Sad. There are so many countries doing a much better job for their people, yet these two carry on as if the decline is inevitable.

[Vraith]

The "two party problem" depends on the two parties being static, not changing. And that is not the case, they are dynamic and change according to the public feelings of the time. Just for consistency sake, the Democratic Party is completely different from its incarnation decades ago (remember, the Democratic Party supported keeping the slavery system in place... they were not always the liberal party they are now).

Really, my main concern with the US is that it tends towards Fascism.

Don't entirely disagree. However, the change-over-time doesn't make up for the fact of ongoing duopoly. And the results of that have always been, among other things:
Many important, and often long-term majority-shared issues are NOT represented in Gov't.

The "oppositions," act in concert/agreement in many structural/policy ways to keep the power amongst themselves.

the other thing, the horse I always beat, is that it is our voting/counting rules themselves that will always, always, regress to/reassert 2-party dominance. [this is greatly exacerbated by the fact of national party existence, but not caused by national party existence].