The Right to Health.

[Ananda]

This thread certainly has taken a few twists and turns. My thoughts:

Guns vs. butter. Despite what Cail says, it almost doesn't matter how much we cut our defense spending. Demographically we are obligated to pay for far more healthcare than can ever be afforded by any conceivable group of taxpayers. Reform is needed, and most importantly notice. We need to put people on notice that the big government promises will not be coming to fruition in the way LBJ suggested. Individuals are going to have to take more responsibility for their health, and their healthcare -- if they want a good result.

War mongering world cops. Some really naïve comments floating around along with some trenchant ones, so in the name of the naïve I'll keep it simple. Yes the US has its flaws including the creation of a global surveillance state... but to quote the great Beck: SPRECHEN SIE DEUTSCH, BABY?

Regarding the criticism that the US acts in its national self interest, I don't think that is necessarily true in all cases. Sometimes purely humanitarian factors come into play. But even if true: so what? If you don't like it, stop depending on the US to do your dirty work for you and get moving against the 'bad guys'. Get out there and be somebody!

Some time ago, I read a story about a woman who had fled to south korea from the north. She had lived in the south for some years and had learned about the rest of the world and so. But, when the beloved leader died, even though she knew the truth about the regime having lived outside of it for so long, her first reaction, she said, was, 'but he can't be dead- he's a god'.

It is kind a bitter sweet moment: both sad and funny. While we smirk about it, let's stop to wonder what *we* have internalised and believe at our core just based on where we grew up. How many 'but he's a god' type beliefs do we have beneath the surface? Just as many as her, I'd say.

[lorin]

No one's intention is to be unhealthy.
Just as no one's intentions is to consume health resources at someone else's expense.
There is no 'willfully ' here.
It's preposterous.

I think it's all about how you define 'willfully'. In my shelter we had 400 families. Each apartment had a full kitchen. Each family received food stamps. Each family was offered trips to food coops and supermarkets. The shelter provided a nutritionist, a doctor, a gym, nutritional counseling, and healthy cooking classes. The gym was never used, no one used the food co-ops, doctors would continually warn families that they saw on a weekly basis, nutritionists did HOME visits...........yet these families were int he doctors office two and three times a week with pressure problems, sugar problems, respiratory problems from the smoking. The majority of food stamps were spent on dominoes and Chinese delivery. Any food actually cooked was fried or junk food. Or the stamps were traded in for 40's or cigarettes.

I define that as willfully unhealthy and willfully consuming resources at others expenses.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

lorin, I think WF is questioning the reality of choice itself and the ability of the individual to be responsible for himself / herself. If that isn't a self fulfilling prophecy, I don't know what is.

[Zarathustra]

Even if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. Just because one does not specifically intend to be unhealthy doesn't mean they're not willfully--and usually knowingly--making the choices that lead to poor health.

Willfully disregarding the consequences is the choice being made. While that is not semantically the same as willfully choosing the consequences, for all practical and moral purposes, it's the same.

For instance, consider an evil Big Business corporation that's polluting the environment to take short cuts and increase profit. It might not have been created with the explicit intention of polluting the environment, but if it's dumping toxic sludge into the river, no one here is going to let them off the hook on such a silly semantic distinction. They're knowingly putting toxic shit into the environment, therefore they're willfully polluting the environment, even if that's not their end goal.

I think it's interesting to compare all this to the recent Kansas experiment thread where it was speculated that Republican economic failures were exactly the intention ... as if anyone actually intends that. Intent is conceivable in that wacky speculation, but not here.

It is perfectly conceivable to imagine that people are just fine with making themselves unhealthy.

[SoulBiter]

It is perfectly conceivable to imagine that people are just fine with making themselves unhealthy.

Anecdotal - A friend of mine has a hereditary kidney disease that causes him to grow tumors in his kidneys. He has known that he is affected for as long as I have known him (more than 20 years). All he had to do was keep his weight under control so he could get a kidney transplant when his kidneys got bad enough. Never happened. I have never seen him not top his plate off as full as it would get and rarely have I seen him eat less than two plates. Fast forward to today, he has no kidneys, does dialysis, is in terrible shape, weighs 350+, drinks a two liter Mt Dew a day..... He is 10 years younger than I am and will probably be dead within the next two years. Due to not taking care of himself, he has been in and out of the hospital for the last 10 years, all for things related to not having good working kidneys and not taking care of himself so he could get kidneys.

I mentioned its hereditary, his cousin who took better care of himself got a new kidney last year and is doing GREAT!!!

[Ananda]

It is perfectly conceivable to imagine that people are just fine with making themselves unhealthy.

Anecdotal - A friend of mine has a hereditary kidney disease that causes him to grow tumors in his kidneys. He has known that he is affected for as long as I have known him (more than 20 years). All he had to do was keep his weight under control so he could get a kidney transplant when his kidneys got bad enough. Never happened. I have never seen him not top his plate off as full as it would get and rarely have I seen him eat less than two plates. Fast forward to today, he has no kidneys, does dialysis, is in terrible shape, weighs 350+, drinks a two liter Mt Dew a day..... He is 10 years younger than I am and will probably be dead within the next two years. Due to not taking care of himself, he has been in and out of the hospital for the last 10 years, all for things related to not having good working kidneys and not taking care of himself so he could get kidneys.

I mentioned its hereditary, his cousin who took better care of himself got a new kidney last year and is doing GREAT!!!

That is an interesting story, SB. Thanks for sharing it. I wonder what is involved in self destruction like this? Factors I can think of are:
- with something like this, it happens in slow motion so to speak and people defer fixing tomorrow's problem for whatever reason, so procrastination
- instinctual craving to go for high fat, calorie foods going back to our most primative instincts
- psychological pathology that allows for cognitive dissonance maybe because the results are not immediate (same person who does like you say would not drink a bottle of poison despite the results being the same in the end)
- other psychological reasons for seeking solace in food
- chemical dependancy reasons for seeking certain types of food (foods releasing various pleasurable chemicals in the body)
- lack of self esteem and a viscious cycle

It is interesting. We are insane, instinctual animals just beneath the facade of civilisation. And, I should add, none of us are exempt from this sort of thing. When we analyse one creature, we are also analysing ourselves.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

We are insane, instinctual animals just beneath the facade of civilisation.

What is the first aftereffect of most major storms or power outages? Looting, whether for valuables or food.

Do you want to see a city erupt into violence and degenerate into anarchy? Empty all the grocery store shelves for only three days--there will be riots in the streets.

[Vraith]

We are insane, instinctual animals just beneath the facade of civilisation.

What is the first aftereffect of most major storms or power outages? Looting, whether for valuables or food.

Do you want to see a city erupt into violence and degenerate into anarchy? Empty all the grocery store shelves for only three days--there will be riots in the streets.

Looting after disasters is extremely variable.
But in almost all cases, far more people HELP other people than go on
some raid-binge.

And, even if you were wholly correct about the effects/reactions, I don't subscribe to the view that what people do under extreme conditions reveals "what they really are."
[[I also don't believe "in vino veritas"...though apparently, {I don't recall where I heard/read this or who it was, it might be a myth} some group/society, before making important decisions, would debate it twice. Once while everyone was sober, and once while everyone was drunk.]

[Ananda]

Vraith, you will get a compile error with the open bracket in that post.

[Vraith]

Vraith, you will get a compile error with the open bracket in that post.

According to some folk, it would just be compounding my other errors in general.

that's just fine with me.

[Ananda]

Vraith, you will get a compile error with the open bracket in that post.

According to some folk, it would just be compounding my other errors in general.

that's just fine with me.

nawwwwww

[TheFallen]

Vraith, you will get a compile error with the open bracket in that post.

According to some folk, it would just be compounding my other errors in general.

that's just fine with me.

nawwwwww

yeaahhhhh

[Vraith]

According to some folk, it would just be compounding my other errors in general.

that's just fine with me.

nawwwwww

yeaahhhhh

Knew I could count on you, TF.
Y'know, there's practically free mental health medications and treatments
for Grammartarianism.