Drink from clearish streams? (was "What is holy?")

[Linna Heartbooger]

Hey Folks,

Decided to change this from a traditional discussion to...
...me posting discussions arising from my faith tradition..

Stuff like:

• Snippets of songs and books I value,
  Audio or video of sermons,
  Links to the Evangelistiblogosphere,
  etc., etc.

If you view content I link to, I would love comments about your reaction!
Whether the comment is "wow, I never thought of it" or "pwetty background art!" or "needs more cat pictures," or "My reaction to that link is 'NO. Just no.' "

________________________________

What does 'holy' even mean?
Or 'faith'? Or even 'believe'?

Well, I love a good sermon...
Not persuasive, Linna... try again.

Well, I love cheesy humor, and this old dude takes the prize for that!

He makes fun of:

• the church (incl. the congregation where he preaches this sermon)
  himself as an author... of awkward situations!
  things... it's funny to hear someone make fun of in a public forum in a Chicago suburb?

But then, you can find better cheesy humor from comedians.
This preacher uses his humility and humor to help him talk about the really intense topic of "what holiness is."

"Holiness without the Halo" by Stuart Briscoe
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Edit: Completely changed the OP and the purpose of the thread.
Also, minor punctuation.
Edit II: subject change, take II.

[Linna Heartbooger]

I quote:
"No chaplain of mine will be found sitting all day in the chapel drinking coffee.”

From:
A blog post by an old dude who seems to have had a pretty strict commander "back in the day."

[Orlion]

Needs more cat pictures

[Linna Heartbooger]

Well, don't blame me if you read past the guy's story about his interactions with his commanding officer!

Pretty sure you could tell that what followed was supposed to be 'insider stuff' for the people who supposedly buy into all that stuff.

[Savor Dam]

The real content of the article, which was about keeping oneself centered regardless of the specific faith context, was excellent.

Yes, The All (however we perceive it) is there and available...but we have to choose to recognize, embrace, and interact.

Whether that can be equated with drinking coffee in chapel is highly debatable...but debating with a superior officer is seldom a good choice.

[Avatar]

Either everything is holy, or nothing is.

--A

[aliantha]

I'm with Av.

I mean, I get his need to reconnect daily with his deity. And I'm not trying to criticize the guy. But Buddhists (and others) find purpose, and a kind of grace, in living in the present moment. God may have put him in that regimented life to teach him that -- or else to teach him that he was more of an introvert than he thought. Because it sounds to me like this particular preacher needs a significant amount of time alone to recharge his batteries after constant interactions with his fellow man.

I'm sure he found being a chaplain rewarding, too, in the sense that he was constantly ministering to his flock, and finding a sense of purpose in that.

I do have to wonder, though, if he put a little spin on his time in the Army in order to get a sermon out of it....

[Fist and Faith]

Either everything is holy, or nothing is.

--A

Yup

[Linna Heartbooger]

Avatar-
Theologian:
" 'The holy' is 'set apart.' "
Alienation?

Ali- I'm wondering, do you think of prayer as accomplishing any thing different from "getting a few quiet moments to oneself"?

Because it sounds to me like this particular preacher needs a significant amount of time alone to recharge his batteries after constant interactions with his fellow man.

I'm sure he found being a chaplain rewarding, too, in the sense that he was constantly ministering to his flock, and finding a sense of purpose in that.

Isn't that a challenge for us all?
To figure out how to strike a balance with what we know of the different needs we have?
Or will we let the "interesting times" we live in, or even the call of those we love drive us to risk overextending ourselves for a few hours, or months, or years?

[Orlion]

I'm of the opinion that the "all is holy or nothing is holy" is a false dichotomy. Believers may disagree with what I'm about to say, but what one considers holy is a very personal, subjective experience... which in some cases is prone to change. Some book may be holy to me because I can see the work of God in it and a divine force to guide my life where as another person would view that book as "mere fiction". The person claiming that does not mean that book is no longer holy to me.

[aliantha]

Re all-or-nothing: Hmm. I see what you're saying, Orlion, but I think there's a distinction to be made between things that one reveres personally -- a special keepsake, perhaps -- and the sort of mindset that sees the divine in everything.

I'm wondering, do you think of prayer as accomplishing any thing different from "getting a few quiet moments to oneself"?

In terms of my own spiritual practice? It's more like meditation than prayer. But my deities aren't the sort I would hand over all my problems to. I ask them for advice, sure, but I don't expect them to fix stuff for me.

We could all do with more quiet time. But I suspect someone drawn to a contemplative life might have a strong introspective streak. Since introverts recharge with time alone, and extraverts recharge by being around other people, I was suggesting that maybe this fellow had some introvert tendencies.

[Avatar]

...the sort of mindset that sees the divine in everything.

That's sorta where I was coming from, good one Ali.

--A

[Linna Heartbooger]

The real content of the article, which was about keeping oneself centered regardless of the specific faith context, was excellent.

I disagree.

The article was aimed square at people who are seeking God through the Bible.
It was specifically about:
* scripture-reading,
* prayer to God, &
* worship to God through songs that adore and call to mind who God is.

Or were you thinking of those three things as stuff that anyone could find useful to "keep oneself centered"?
I felt that for me to assume you meant this would be to deliberately misinterpret you.


(As I kinda can't avoid showing, I still cringe inwardly from openly contradicting others. Which is to say, "umm, kinda sorry for the delayed response, SD.")

[Savor Dam]

No worries about contradicting me, Linna...and really there is a difference between disagreement and contradiction.

I understand that you interpreted the article as specifically about the process Dr. Hawley used for his daily devotions. These resonated with you because they so resemble your own. However, coming as I do from a somewhat different spiritual tradition, what I took away from the article had less to do with the form of his worship than for the bedrock need for setting aside time and space regularly for whatever form one's personal contemplations and/or adoration of The All...however they may approach this.

Spiritually, Dr. Hawley was "running on fumes" when he tried to comply with what his superior wanted...and only fueled his devotional engine fully when he took the time to do what worked for him. My worship practices would not necessarily serve him well, nor do his work for everyone.

[Linna Heartbooger]

In terms of my own spiritual practice? It's more like meditation than prayer. But my deities aren't the sort I would hand over all my problems to. I ask them for advice, sure, but I don't expect them to fix stuff for me.

I guess the question that I think matters for a Christian is "Does my God actually do stuff in response to people's requests?"
Because if not, we're deceived, and wasting our time, and potentially endangering our humility. (though that last one is a risk in any case.)

Though for many there is the accompanying question, "Are the things that this God does good?"

We could all do with more quiet time. But I suspect someone drawn to a contemplative life might have a strong introspective streak. Since introverts recharge with time alone, and extraverts recharge by being around other people, I was suggesting that maybe this fellow had some introvert tendencies.

I dunno. I think it's safe to say the fellow who wrote the blog post would recommend a "quiet time" like he'd described for all people seeking to be like Jesus.
Btw is there an extrovert/introvert thread around here somewhere?


SD- hmmm, I need to think.


About the "holiness" thing... you guys!
The sermon wasn't about "let's do a Venn Diagram of what things are holy and which are not."
It was about the question of "What does the word 'holy' mean?"

[Fist and Faith]

I'll not comment on most of this.

But Av was answering the question of what the word 'holy' means. As we discussed in the first few posts of this thread, about the Ten Commandments as written in Conversations With God.

[Avatar]

So there.

--A

[Vraith]

Either everything is holy, or nothing is.

--A

I'd tend more towards [and it's one possible implication/interpretation of what O said]

"Everything is Holy, AND nothing is."

There is an interesting thing about the holy...
it has to be, in some sense, set apart/alienated [ali I think said something on this]...
Set apart from what, though? Us. The mundane. The ordinary.
It also has to be "whole," complete, connected...
To what, though? God, the Divine, the transcendent.
But BOTH those sets of characteristics, do---according to most folk, religious or otherwise, who are concerned about holiness, if you dig deeply enough---apply to everything. Every Thing is separate from AND connected to the Divine.
All Things are Created Holy.
[[[then humans became pigs, and emended "But some are more Holy than others."]]]

[aliantha]

Either everything is holy, or nothing is.

--A

I'd tend more towards [and it's one possible implication/interpretation of what O said]

"Everything is Holy, AND nothing is."

There is an interesting thing about the holy...
it has to be, in some sense, set apart/alienated [ali I think said something on this]...
Set apart from what, though? Us. The mundane. The ordinary.
It also has to be "whole," complete, connected...
To what, though? God, the Divine, the transcendent.
But BOTH those sets of characteristics, do---according to most folk, religious or otherwise, who are concerned about holiness, if you dig deeply enough---apply to everything. Every Thing is separate from AND connected to the Divine.
All Things are Created Holy.
[[[then humans became pigs, and emended "But some are more Holy than others."]]]

Nice "Animal Farm" reference there at the end.

(ali double-checks to make sure this isn't a "1" thread...)

The thing is that you're presupposing that "God" is exclusively transcendent. Deity may also be immanent -- the idea of "spirits of place," as one example.

Just because Christianity has encouraged this idea of holiness as a thing apart doesn't mean that's actually the case for everyone in the world. There are plenty of cultures in which there's no separate religion, per se -- just an expectation or admonition that you're to live and act a certain way. The Navajo call it "walking in beauty". It's (as I understand it) about striving to live in harmony with everything around you. Indigenous Australians have an ingrained sense of belonging to a specific place -- their stories and rituals revolve around taking care of their homelands.

I think Western culture has made a grave mistake in defining holiness as a thing apart or outside or above us. I suspect we wouldn't have nearly the trouble we have now with environmental disasters and abuse of our fellow humans if we'd been trained from birth to believe that everything we see and feel is sacred.

[Vraith]

Nice "Animal Farm" reference there at the end.

Deity may also be immanent -- the idea of "spirits of place," as one example.

I suspect we wouldn't have nearly the trouble we have now with environmental disasters and abuse of our fellow humans if we'd been trained from birth to believe that everything we see and feel is sacred.

Heh...on first, thanks, couldn't resist.

On second...yea, and that's what I mean by digging far enough. Christians didn't invent separating Holy from Not Holy...why immanence in only some places? Why would one place be more spirit, have more spirit, be more holy than another? What makes the Oak, the Holy Spring, the Cathedral more special than the Porcelain Throne? I might argue that getting poop far away from me is pretty important for my spiritual [and other] well being.
And besides,
the third is just exactly what I said. You agree completely. Everything is sacred AND nothing is.
When something speaks to you and cries "Behold!" don't take it to mean "look at that miracle/angel, there." take it more anciently/literally: Hold, keep...it is YOU, not IT...it is having/being, not "looking at."