The Redemption of Kevin

[wayfriend]

Kevin, posthumously titled Landwaster, has been a tragic figure throughout the entire Chronicles.

When Covenant first arrives in the Land, we hear his story. Unable to prevent Foul's victory over the Land, he chose Desecration instead of defeat. But first he prepared for the Land's survival, creating and hiding Wards, and sending certain peoples away from the Land to ensure their survival. Then he went to Mount Thunder, where he dared Foul to enact the Ritual with him. He knew he would die, but believed that Foul would die as well, and so at great cost the Land would be saved. But Foul laughed, and Kevin was wrong, and the Land was scorched, and Foul survived. Kevin achieved only a thousand years of respite from the Despiser, years spent healing and rebuilding.

It is a testament to the generous empathy of the returned peoples of the Land that they did not revile Kevin, but instead consider him a tragic hero, a figure to be honored and pitied, and not reviled.

Kevin, whom we name Landwaster more in pity than in condemnation of his despair.

For years, the question was debated on the Watch: was Kevin's plan to destroy the Despiser through Desecration a good plan? Or a bad? Were there other alternatives? Or was this the only choice?

The author has given us his opinion:

I question the validity of the proposition that 'there's nothing left to try'. I am not sure that there is ever a point at which there is nothing left to try. Because, ultimately, the worst that can happen to you is you go out and get killed. Lord Mhoram talks about this in The Power That Preserves. That to make success or failure the measure by which you judge yourself is to completely miss the point of what it is you are trying to do. Which is to save something beautiful. You love it, so you give it your all. End of story. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. (Although in these books, they ultimately win.) But, what Kevin did was judge himself before events judged him. You know, he looked at all these forces arrayed against him, all the mistakes he's made, allowing Lord Foul in disguise on the council of Lords, and ur-viles and god knows what running around, and "oh my god", and "somehow I am responsible for all of that". It's like having a god complex. Mhoram's attitude is much more humane. We are not required to save the world. We are required to stand up as truly as we can for what we love. And then after that, we've done all we can, so there's nothing to grieve about.

-- transcribed from video, Elohimfest 1, Sep 2004.

Kevin, then, acted from a kind of self-important position where the fate of the world was all up to him. In this, he was misguided. It was this weakness for self-importance, for judging himself by whether or not he saves the Land, that Foul preyed upon.

And yet the people of the Land, when they learn the story, cannot help but admire Kevin. Somehow, they judge Kevin as Kevin could not judge himself: for his love of the Land, and not for the results of his actions. Of course, this judgement is complicated by their need and their gratitude for Kevin's lore. Kevin provided for their restoration.

It's not surprising that characters and readers would like Kevin to be redeemed from the tragedy of his actions. If we admire Kevin, then we cannot help but think he deserved a better outcome than he got.

Elena, of course, attempts to redeem him. She literally gives him another chance when she summons his spirit from death in order to fight Foul again.

"Release me!" Kevin groaned. "I have done harm enough for one soul."

"Then serve me!" she cried ecstatically up to him. "I offer you a Command to redeem that harm."

That doesn't go well. Poor Kevin. Now he is doubly the cause of grief and woe.

We see Kevin again near the end of the Second Chronicles. He is so blinded by despair that he asks Linden to consider killing Covenant.

The final time Kevin appears in the story is in the Last Chronicles. Linden had just resurrected Covenant, and thereby roused the Worm of the World's End. The spirits of all the old lords had come to witness this event. But then they stick around.

When the great voice of Berek Halfhand announced, "The time has come to speak of the Ritual of Desecration," she staggered as though she had been struck.

She believed that he meant to excoriate her.

The Old Lords see a parallel between the rousing of the Worm and the Ritual of Desecration. Linden fears what recriminations such a comparison will yield. But she is surprised, because Berek ajudges Kevin, and Linden by extension, compassionately.

"Kevin son of Loric, hear and give heed. We share no bond apart from the heritage of lore and High Lordship. The inheritance of blood is too distant to constrain me. Thus I am able to state freely that your sires are grieved by the harm which you have wrought, but they are not shamed.

"Only the great of heart may despair greatly. You are loved and treasured, not for the outcome of your extremity, but rather for the open passion by which you were swayed to Desecration. That same quality warranted the Vow of the Haruchai. It was not false."

Donaldson had presaged these sentiments seven years earlier. "To make success or failure the measure by which you judge yourself is to completely miss the point." You are loved and treasured, not for the outcome of your extremity, but rather for your passion.

Kevin loved the land deeply, and fought for it greatly. For that the Old Lords treasure him. For that the people of the land revered him. Despite -- despite! -- the result of his choices.

We are not required to save the world. We are required to stand up as truly as we can for what we love.

Kevin stood up truly for what he loved.

You judge by your hearts. It is by grief and regret that you know yourselves, rather than by deeds and effort and service.

Kevin's heart was large, his love for the Land wide and deep.

"That is sooth, my son," Loric murmured roughly, "a word of truth in this fate-ridden time. If I did not speak often or plainly enough of my own encounters with despair, or of the occasions on which I trembled at the very threshold of Desecration, then was I a poor father indeed, and your reproaches must be for me rather than for yourself."

When he heard his father, something within Kevin broke. Linden saw the chains which had bound his spirit snap as he opened himself to Loric’s embrace.

Eight thousand years after he died, High Lord Kevin son of Loric has been redeemed.

Only some great purpose could have compelled the spirits of the old lords to wait so long before redeeming their son. But they also chose to redeem their son before Linden's eyes. And just after she had seemingly doomed the Earth as the outcome of her extremity. Can we not credit them for such suspicious timing? They didn't choose this moment to excoriate Linden, but to console her. To convince her not to despair. To teach her what to judge herself for, and what not to judge herself for.

In this way, Kevin's redemption is a gift for many spirits.

[Menolly]

Beautiful synopsis, way.

[IrrationalSanity]

Excellent!

[Zarathustra]

In the Donaldson quote I'm seeing a similar tendency toward inconsistency that I've noted elsewhere in his justifications for his stories.

I question the validity of the proposition that 'there's nothing left to try'. I am not sure that there is ever a point at which there is nothing left to try. Because, ultimately, the worst that can happen to you is you go out and get killed. Lord Mhoram talks about this in The Power That Preserves. That to make success or failure the measure by which you judge yourself is to completely miss the point of what it is you are trying to do. Which is to save something beautiful. You love it, so you give it your all. End of story. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. (Although in these books, they ultimately win.) But, what Kevin did was judge himself before events judged him. You know, he looked at all these forces arrayed against him, all the mistakes he's made, allowing Lord Foul in disguise on the council of Lords, and ur-viles and god knows what running around, and "oh my god", and "somehow I am responsible for all of that". It's like having a god complex. Mhoram's attitude is much more humane. We are not required to save the world. We are required to stand up as truly as we can for what we love. And then after that, we've done all we can, so there's nothing to grieve about.

-- transcribed from video, Elohimfest 1, Sep 2004.

He begins and ends with opposite points. If there's never a time when there's nothing left to try, then why say "then after that, we've done all we can"? And if there's never a time when there's nothing left to try, then why aren't we required to save the world? Endless options leave open the possibility of unlimited potential effectiveness, which puts the power to save the world in our hands.

Why are we required to stand up as truly as we can for what we love? Who requires this of us?

I reject the notion that good intentions are all that matter, or even the most important part. Everyone thinks their intentions are better than others'. We all think we have the best intentions. Some of us are wrong.

[dlbpharmd]

It is a good synopsis, hats off to WF (again!)

I do appreciate that Kevin was redeemed in the story, but I have to ask: why was he the only one worthy of such redemption? What about Elena? Joan? Hell, even Roger?

[Zarathustra]

Hitler stood up for what he loved, too. He thought he had the best intentions: the purity of the Aryan race. This kind of thinking can lead to atrocities just as easily as redemption, depending on which side you're taking ... which requires us to examine outcomes (which Donaldson downplays). Success and failure absolutely matter.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

I'm in hearty agreement that this is a great synopsis, WF.

—————————————————

I do appreciate that Kevin was redeemed in the story, but I have to ask: why was he the only one worthy of such redemption? What about Elena? Joan? Hell, even Roger?

(Though I might disagree with Elena and Roger being included in this list), was it that Kevin was the only one worthy to be redeemed? Or was he was the only one who allowed himself to be redeemed?

—————————————————

In the Donaldson quote I'm seeing a similar tendency toward inconsistency that I've noted elsewhere in his justifications for his stories. …

Hitler stood up for what he loved, too. He thought he had the best intentions: the purity of the Aryan race. This kind of thinking can lead to atrocities just as easily as redemption, depending on which side you're taking ... which requires us to examine outcomes (which Donaldson downplays). Success and failure absolutely matter.

Yes, but we some very good clues as to why he downplays it. They have to do with something you reject, but which SDR, at least evidently, accepts (see RE-READING THE ENTIRE CHRONICLES thread). This might demonstrate the reason why it's not so much a question of whether or not SDR is being consistent as much as it is a question of that with which he is being consistent. IOW, he is being consistent with the entirety of the Mystery/Paradox.

Now, if you see one pole of the Paradox as being mutually exclusive of the other, then that's a fair enough position to take. But I maintain that it would be precisely this sort of reductionism which would be inconsistent with SDR's thematics going all the way back to LFB.

[Zarathustra]

If our President decided to nuke the U.S. in order to get rid of terrorists within it (a modern day RoD), no one would care about his good intentions or ignore the consequences. No one would be asking if he could be redeemed. No one would pity him. Nor is it improper or arrogant for the President to consider the fate of this Land his responsibility to safeguard. As long as we consider Kevin's actions as a fictional hero with no real world applicability, then I suppose it's fine to think that contradictions within the themes is sophisticated examination of paradox (I disagree, but it's no longer important or relevant). But if we pretend that there are Truths here--actual points that can be applied to the real world--then it's freakin' crazy talk. It's not reductionist to point out that I wouldn't want the President to nuke the U.S. If we're going to hold Kevin to an infinitely lower standard than we would real leaders in similar positions, then this is just pedantic literary jibber jabber. What I like about the Chronicles--and how I like to examine them--is how they contain truths that resonate with our own lives, our own reality. There is absolutely nothing in Kevin's story that is worthy of applying to our own lives. I think the fact that he was "redeemed" in the story is abhorrent.

[Vraith]

I wouldn't want the President to nuke the U.S. If we're going to hold Kevin to an infinitely lower standard than we would real leaders in similar positions, then this is just pedantic literary jibber jabber.

Well, I don't know...you might very well want the President to get as many people as possible out of NYC, the drop a nuke on it if Hitler had men and nukes there and was preparing to spread out and destroy everything in his path...[does Hitler always have to come up? Does ANYONE really believe he had "good intentions" of ANY KIND?]

I think sometimes in these conversations we [including me, most likely, if I looked back through everything] run into a problem when we blur the difference between things that are mistaken, or in error, or have unpredictable effects/consequences with things that are Evil. In fact that's most of the point of not judging solely by outcomes.

That being said...I don't believe Kevin was Redeemed. He was just understood and forgiven. Big difference.
Sometimes...fairly regularly...I question whether "redemption" is even a real thing in any way---even conceptually/abstractly. Just like we can, in some nebulous, oozy, total bullshit way "conceive" of a square circle, it isn't real in any way whatsoever. It is literally impossible even conceptually/metaphorically, let alone materially.
I've been known to try and argue around/about/through it, give it some kinda/sorta ground/definition/reality...
But mostly I think it's imaginary in the worst way possible: it is so imaginary we can't even imagine the cases where it would be true, but we imagine it IS something anyway.

[wayfriend]

Vraith: I think Kevin was redeemed. One meaning of that word is "saved". M-W actually lists definition #2 as "to free from what distresses or harms". Kevin, by Donaldson's account, was wracked and tormented by the consequences of his actions. For millennia. Donaldson made sure to show us signs of his torment in WGW. Until the chains which had bound his spirit were broken by his forefathers compassion. Kevin was freed from a spiritual bondage, albeit of his own making. And so: redeemed.

DLB: Why was Kevin redeemed? I do not know. But I tried to offer up the idea that Kevin was redeemed for a specific reason - for the benefit of Linden. So, it served a story purpose beyond a wouldn't-it-be-nice thing. The author intended to guide us for how we were to judge Linden.

Also: Elena was rescued from SWMNBN by Linden.

[Covenant said] "Linden freed She Who Must Not Be Named. She freed Elena” — his voice caught for a moment — “and who knows how many other lost souls."

[Caerwood ur-Mahrtiir said] “With me are these ur-viles and Waynhim, the last of their kind. Aye, they are Demondim-spawn, given life by lore rather than by natural birth. But they are also High Lord Elena redeemed from torment. They are the Auriference and Emereau Vrai and Diassomer Mininderain and many other women. They are the dark yearning of merewives and the sunlit absorption of Elohim. And now they are also Forestals."

I hope that helps!

Wosbald: Certainly Kevin sought redemption, or at least wanted it, where Roger never did. I would add, too, that not everyone can be saved, for if everyone gets saved, then what's at risk? (I think we mentioned all of these things before, in a Roger thread somewhere.)

Also: As I understand it, Donaldson isn't saying that Kevin should not be judged, and that he isn't saying that the consequences of Kevin's actions don't matter. Even Berek said, "your sires are grieved by the harm which you have wrought." Kevin was, by all other accounts, a great man. As has been said, he inspired even the Haruchai. He loved the Land, and he loved it's peoples. He fought as hard as any man can fight for the Land's survival. All Donaldson is saying is: that's who Kevin really is. He is still worthy of the love of his forefathers.

To paraphrase the ending of TPTP, you might say of Kevin: But he was not a desecrator - not just a desecrator.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Wosbald: Certainly Kevin sought redemption, or at least wanted it, where Roger never did. I would add, too, that not everyone can be saved, for if everyone gets saved, then what's at risk? (I think we mentioned all of these things before, in a Roger thread somewhere.)

True dat. (Though I'd say that redemption is metaphysically possible for all though, perhaps, not morally probable; no one needs be damned so that others may be saved.)

But in the end, didn't Roger help his father and reject LF? I don't have the book in front of me, but that's what I'm remembering.

[JIkj fjds j]

Hiya Wayfriend,

In your first paragraph you've touched on a story point I've never quite understood. I was wondering what you imagine had actually happened at the Ritual of Desecration ?

If High Lord Kevin and Lord Foul unleashed enough power to obliterate most of the Land how then did Mt.Thunder remain intact ?
I'm assuming of course that the Ritual was performed in Kiril Threndor (in the heart of the mountain).

cheers

[Vraith]

I was wondering what you imagine had actually happened at the Ritual of Desecration ?

If High Lord Kevin and Lord Foul unleashed enough power to obliterate most of the Land how then did Mt.Thunder remain intact ?

That's a pretty good question, as far as my memory can tell.
My impression of it as more of a poisoning/corrupting than a physical destruction...but off the top of my head, I don't recall if there's textual evidence for that...except in that there is an absence of physical harm. All the Giant's built is undamaged, there aren't any cracks/crevices/rubble or other damage in other places...no mountains falling, volcanoes erupting, the rivers weren't blocked or have their courses changed.
And that [to me] makes sense, according to the nature of the beings involved---lore-wise Kevin, metaphysical Foul. It tracks with how Trell's desecration worked...
That I remember, anyway.

WF: yes, there are SOME kinds of redemption...but it's mostly the small beer kinds. Not essentially different from redeeming your water bottle for the deposit. Not the big kind that people often mean. And it is that big kind I think impossible, even in principle.

[Zarathustra]

Well, I don't know...you might very well want the President to get as many people as possible out of NYC, the drop a nuke on it if Hitler had men and nukes there and was preparing to spread out and destroy everything in his path...

That fact that you can imagine a scenario in which the President would be justified to nuke NYC is really disappointing. Do we really have to stoop so low to excuse a fictional character's actions? Kevin wasn't real. It's okay to say he sucks. No actual person is harmed. Hell, we often say worse things about actual leaders in the real world.

[does Hitler always have to come up? Does ANYONE really believe he had "good intentions" of ANY KIND?]

Hitler thought he had good intentions. That was my point. If this argument only works for the people that we like or imagine are on our side, then we're talking about outcomes after all, and not merely having your heart in the right place. The idea of "having your heart in the right place" is dependent upon an objective judgment of where the right place is. Merely defending what you love isn't enough, because some people love some really sick things.

I think sometimes in these conversations we [including me, most likely, if I looked back through everything] run into a problem when we blur the difference between things that are mistaken, or in error, or have unpredictable effects/consequences with things that are Evil. In fact that's most of the point of not judging solely by outcomes.

The consequences of the RoD were predictable. I don't think the lines are blurred in this case. I don't want to make this political, but if we're going to apply this reasoning to the real world at all, I must point out that it's this sort of thinking that allows certain "War(s) on X" to continue for decades even when shown to be a failure. If you don't examine outcomes, you can't ever learn from your mistakes. In fact, we might as well discard the concept of mistake all together if we're not going to consider outcomes relevant. How would you ever know when you've made a mistake? How would you know your heart is in the wrong place? The things we love with our heart are out in the world. Love is either manifested in outcomes, or it's just a warm fuzzy feeling.

Why do you think Donaldson had the heroes save the world in the end if success wasn't necessary? Why have story at all? He could have saved himself the trouble and just wrote, "The characters all had good intentions and therefore were all correct. Just trust me. You don't need to see why." Would anyone here have accepted a story where the Land and all its inhabitants were utterly destroyed, with the epilogue, "But at least their hearts were in the right place. The end." ???

That being said...I don't believe Kevin was Redeemed. He was just understood and forgiven. Big difference.

Okay, fair point (though it appears WF disagrees). However, isn't it okay not to forgive people who commit atrocities that destroy the world? Would it make a difference to people concerned about global warming that oil tycoons were actually sweet guys with good intentions? Why fight against global warming at all? If outcomes don't matter, isn't it enough just to not like it?

Perhaps this is why certain types of political debates always devolve into an assumption of bad intentions (whether you know the person's heart or not). So many times--most of the time, in fact--we assume people had bad intentions based on the outcomes of their actions. If we don't agree with their actions or politics, we just assume they have bad intentions.

[JIkj fjds j]

My impression of it as more of a poisoning/corrupting than a physical destruction...

there aren't any cracks/crevices/rubble or other damage in other places...no mountains falling, volcanoes erupting, the rivers weren't blocked or have their courses changed.

Yes of course, an interesting answer. You mention poison and corruption. That's a detail I'd neglected to consider.
(Although I'm inclined to believe that line of thought far too easily made laughable by His Foulness).

As far as cracks/crevices/rubble, there is the Rock Gardens (visited in The Illearth War). I remember the garden valley being described as like the remains of an exploded mountain.

If there's any sense to be made of this, and to tie into the RoD, there is the transportation of Thomas Covenant from Kiril Threndor to Kevin's Watch.(One of the tricks, I'm sure, Drool Rockworm learned from Lord Foul!)

Perhaps a trick Lord Foul learned from Kevin when he lost the Staff of Law.

Thanks

[Vraith]

Kevin doesn't suck. He was trapped. He thought he had a solution and was wrong. He thought things would only be worse if he didn't act, [and he was probably correct in that] and he spared everyone he could. Those who came after granted him mercy/forgiveness.

But your pushing what I said to a place it doesn't belong. I never said outcomes are irrelevant...and they aren't. They just aren't the SOLE determinant.

Intentions aren't the sole determinant either...and contrary to what you imply intentions can be judged at least somewhat objectively to be good or bad.

You absolutely HAVE to consider BOTH to have even the slightest chance of fair judgments and advancement.

[Zarathustra]

Vraith, I'm arguing against Donaldson's position. I wasn't trying to stretch yours into territory where it doesn't belong. If you're not defending Donaldson's position, fine.

To me, Kevin is like those people who kill their families in a murder-suicide because they think the world is too messed up to live in. Killing what you love because you can't stand the thought of it not being perfect, 'defending' an idealized version of what you love because you can't accept it the way it is.

Kevin was 'trapped' no more than the rest of us. We all have to face our own inner Despiser and the consequences of that in others. Kevin was the most extreme example of how not to deal with Foul. If we shouldn't judge Kevin on the basis of his actions, then what's to keep us from emulating him? How can we condemn his actions (in order to prevent others from acting as he did) if we're going to say that he was redeemed in the end? (If that's not your position, it's a question for others to answer).

What lessons do you learn from Kevin?

[wayfriend]

I was wondering what you imagine had actually happened at the Ritual of Desecration ?

If High Lord Kevin and Lord Foul unleashed enough power to obliterate most of the Land how then did Mt.Thunder remain intact ?

It seems that Donaldson never actually considered the details. Which leaves everyone wondering, not just you.

Raymond Luxury Yacht: This may fall under RAFO, but I was curious about the Ritual of Desecration. We know this did an amazing amount of destruction, enough to severely set back the civilization and culture of the land, but physically how did the Ritual manifest itself? Flaming balls of fire? Earthquakes? Plague? I'm just wondering what it would have looked like to be there for it.

• This isn't a RAFO. It's an IOIWIN (I only invent what I need). I've never needed to know what a Ritual of Desecration looks like (in any sense), so I've never turned my imagination to the subject.
  
  But just on a whim--since I'm obviously in that kind of mood--I might suggest the type of withering you would get if a skurj 900 miles wide burrowed quickly from one end of the Land to the other.
  
  (01/22/2008)

I would guess that Mount Thunder withstood the Ritual because it's Mount Thunder - puissant and enduring.

Perhaps it stood within the eye of the maelstrom.

Found this while I was in the GI:

Kevin saved the Bloodguard (and the Ranyhyn, and the Unhomed, and most of the people of the Land) because he genuinely cared about them. (Yes, I know there were other factors as well.) And he performed the Ritual of Desecration for essentially the same reason: he cared more intensely than he could stand, and so the prospect of failure became unendurable.

(06/04/2004)

[JIkj fjds j]

If SRD is leaving it open to interpretation then I guess my imagination is drawn more towards Kurash Plenethor as the actual location of Lord Foul's defeat. Like the name suggests - Lord Foul was HAMMERED back to the stone age.

My point, I suppose, is that Kevin's only crime was the loss of the Staff of Law, somewhere in the depths of Gravin Threndor.
The intervening eons that passed gave Lord Foul all the time he needed (to whisper a word here and there - and in doing) to slowly turn history into legend.
So much so in fact, that even the ghost of Kevin believed he was the cause of all that Stricken Stone.

I prefer this version. I think it's important - if only to give Covenant's story credibility. It links Kevin with Covenant across the gulf of time so that with redemption there is clean sunshine, binding them both to the power that preserves.

[wayfriend]

Kevin and Covenant are certainly linked. "Save or Damn." Covenant could have gone the same way as Kevin.

Which brings up Trell. And his mini-desecration of the Close. It's entirely on-topic to notice what happened to Trell afterwards.

"We will grieve for him. The rhadhamaerl will grieve. The time has come for mourning."

[...] "The Healers must work with him. Perhaps they will be able to restore his mind."

Trell wasn't treated like a criminal, or a Foul-servant, for destroying the Close. He was treated like someone who had lost his mind, at least temporally. Sick with grief, caught up in the logic of despair. For Trell, too, was a mighty servant of the Land, who had done much, and who had loved much. His one act of madness wasn't the yardstick by which he was measured.

The people of the Land recognize that Kevin, too, was caught up in the logic of despair. Overwhelming grief. Someone who had lost his mind. His ancestors recognized this, and Loric even admits he had come close to it himself. This, I think, plays a huge part in why Kevin was revered and not reviled - succumbing to Foul's machinations of despair means only that he was human and fallible.

Covenant, too, might have succumbed. He did not. We know why. It had to do with being a leper and raping Lena. He already recognized his capacity for darkness, and the way it desires power. Kevin is a foil for Covenant, just as Troy is, and for similar reasons.