Is the Gap the best Sci-fi you've ever read?

[CovenantJr]

My (recently exed) girlfriend was always going on about Asimov. I should probably read something of his at some point, but I get the feeling he'll be quite dry...

[Prebe]

Absolutely not. Assimov (at least the foundation trilogy) is a very fast read. It is probably on a third place for me after Hyperion and The Gap.

It's different in an odd 50'is sort of way. Plus Assimov is one of the few sci-fi novelist that actually had a solid background in science, which makes it an even more fascinating read.

[CovenantJr]

I'm very unscientific, which might be why I fear dryness in the novels of people with scientific backgrounds.

[Prebe]

I don't think Assimov is abusing his scientific background. Actually the Foundation trilogy is science fiction, with the science part "light".

Rather I'd say that Assimov's scientific background makes his work more "realistic" in the science parts.

[vt53]

Inhuman acts
Fear politics
Scapegoating
Torture
Enslavement
Sex
Drug abuse
Commitment to ideals
Ends justifying means
Redemption



Its all in there.




I would like to mention Clarke's Childhood's End.

[Roynish]

I totally agree with Cj here - I had to reach for the dictionary far less whilst reading The Gap than when reading any of Donaldson Covenant works.

As for big guns being cooler, that's definitely a personal judgement, and one that I don't agree with. I find authors who throw lots of big guns into their works are trying to keep readers from realising that their work is a load of crap.

Well, as a major Donaldson fan of the chronicles and a sci-fi reader, big guns can be cool. Banks, Reynolds, Simmons give a sense of a valid future tech. world. Donaladson does not. I wanted so much to like these books from the guy that created the Sunbane and Vain and the giants that I love so much.
And it is a nasty novel. Redemption may be D's theme in his literary sphere but why I ask do these characters exist. I was captivated at times but repitition kills some of it. The whole ring cycle thing is lame. The text supports a depressive tone of brutality and meandering double cross and crass dialogue. Fuck the dialogue, endless, endless.
This is disturbed fiction by any accounts. I don't know if Donaldson has read Faulkner but he seems to be inspired by the cruelty of that Southern writers prose. If his goal was to create some gothic character expose he succeeded admirably. One of the most unpleasant yet captivating series of books I have read. Its not sci-fi in most senses of the word. It is a horror novel of the psyche, where damaged and perverse characters rule. Donaldsons, sc-fi is thin by any standard of the genre. I am amazed he spent so much time on the thing. More better time would have been spent on developing his greatest work.
But for that he created a valid world, as is his skill. But for those that do not read sci-fi and read Donaldson only it is a thematic connection with his other works.

For sci-fi, or specualtive fiction readers it is deeply flawed.
Yet not so that I can't reccommend it.

Painful beyond belief at times yet some passages are so full of adrenaline and suspense.

Read it at your peril, yet you may want to finish the whole thing. Which ends in a rather lame fashion.

[KC]

Certainly one of the two best, with Dune. Gap appeals more to the emotional side of me and Dune to the intellectual. But both are simply fantastic.

I think that's exactly right. Dune was an intellectual exercise. It expanded my horizons in many ways. The Gap series is an exercise in emotional endurance.

I don't know that the Gap even qualifies as science fiction, as it's not a science driven piece of fiction. But more than any other piece of sci fi that I've read, it's about PEOPLE in space. The realities of vacuum and navigation failure.. the politics and economics of galactic expansion. The impossibility of policing deep space.

It's more realistic. It's more dramatic, than any other piece of sci fi that I've read. But much in the same way that the Covenant series didn't really fit into the standard fantasy mold, neither does the gap fit into the standard sci fi mode.

And that's part of the allure for me. They expand the genre... beyond where other writers have taken it.

Then there is the language. Yes, he's got a better vocabulary than most humans, and he uses it... but he uses it WELL. The language lover in me exalts in his sentences and paragraphs. They are absolutely ART.

Finally, the Gap is character driven. All of my favorite fiction is. Donaldson creates these fantastically real, human characters... then he absolutely tortures them for our amusement. To much sci fi is plot driven... the characters aren't acting in realistic ways of self fulfilment... they simply stumble from one plot section to the next with no real motivation. Too much sci fi is idea driven as well... the characters are puppets created to say what the author wants said... express his idea.

I laughed out loud at the post onthe first page that said that Donaldson must have a dark side... no shit... how many other writers will make a rapist into a hero?

Is it THE BEST? I have to say no. I'd have to give that title to Ender's Game... But it's among the best Sci Fi, and among the best of any Series novels I've read.

Why? Because the books not just AFFECT you, they change you. The best books will alter how you think.

And Donaldson is one of the very few who have been able to consistantly have that level of affect on me.

[Stutty]

Ok, forced to step in here. KC, you've made some brilliant posts about the Gap, but I've got to call you on Ender's Game. Yes, it is really good science fiction, but it's emotional and intellectual depth, complexity. and maturity aren't even in the same universe as the Gap. Like Asimov (and I know I'm going to be much abused for this statement) it's brain candy.

I'll grant that Dune, Hyperion (which their making of movie of BTW - likely be crap) and also Illium/Olympos have the legs to run with the Gap, but that's all I've read that can compete.

stutt

[Rigel]

Like Asimov (and I know I'm going to be much abused for this statement) it's brain candy.

Nah, you won't be amused for that. Asimov only writes brain candy. Rather like Clark, of who it's been said that "he writes about people as if he's never met one."

[KC]

I've got to call you on Ender's Game. Yes, it is really good science fiction, but it's emotional and intellectual depth, complexity. and maturity aren't even in the same universe as the Gap.

Very true. But it's very entertaining. If I have an afternoon, I'll pick it up and read it again. I've read it dozens and dozens of times. It's light, enjoyable and easy.

However, it also holds up to analysis and interpretation in a number of ways, which makes it fulfilling.

Mostly, it feeds my inner child. If you have four hours and a sunny spot, grab a beverage and you will enjoy yourself with this book.

I knew that I'd be called on that, because it is a bit fluffy.

I put it at the top just from the sure pleasure I get from reading it. No other book on my shelf has been read more often, and given me more enjoyment and distraction. It simply pleases me.

[Roynish]

Enders Game. Its clever, written by a Mormon and is overrated.
Its an adolescent coming of age story basically.

Read some Banks or Simmons, or Reynolds. Much better fare.

[The Dreaming]

I don't think Assimov is abusing his scientific background. Actually the Foundation trilogy is science fiction, with the science part "light".

Rather I'd say that Assimov's scientific background makes his work more "realistic" in the science parts.

Yeah, Foundation is actually more of a "feigned history" than anything else. It's an extrapolation of social sciences, which probably makes it more accessible and a little more philosophical.

Sci-Fi at it's best is an extremely philosophical medium, which is one reason I like it so much. Most actual "philosophers" and philosophy teachers and scholars tend to completely forget what I consider to be an entire branch of philosophy. How does man live and change with advances in technology? The impact technology has had on humanity is an extremely underrepresented social and philosophical question. The only group of people who consistently explore that question are "speculative fiction writers". In short, science fiction writers. In my mind there is absolutely no discernible difference between the two. (Except for how it's shelved in a bookstore or library) Science fiction is more than just a setting, it is about man's relationship with technology.

[amanibhavam]

Enders Game. Its clever, written by a Mormon and is overrated.
Its an adolescent coming of age story basically.

Read some Banks or Simmons, or Reynolds. Much better fare.

What does that got to do with anything?

[Loredoctor]

Enders Game. Its clever, written by a Mormon and is overrated.
Its an adolescent coming of age story basically.

Read some Banks or Simmons, or Reynolds. Much better fare.

What does that got to do with anything?

I asked myself the same question . . .

[Zarathustra]

I was captivated at times but repitition kills some of it. The whole ring cycle thing is lame. The text supports a depressive tone of brutality and meandering double cross and crass dialogue. Fuck the dialogue, endless, endless. This is disturbed fiction by any accounts.

There is a lot of repetition. I think it works until Chaos and Order. I quite like the repetition everywhere else, and it gives it an "operatic" effect--as was his intention. Which leads directly to the Ring Cycle. What exactly do you think is lame about that? Do you think the original opera is lame? Or mirroring it thematically for a space opera? I thought it was quite clever and beautiful. Sure, it's dark. Sure it's disturbed. There is an intensity with such material that it not possible otherwise.

I didn't mind the dialogue, either. How can you simultaneously complain about it being disturbed fiction, yet criticize a narrative element (such as dialogue) with such emotional, crude language like "fuck the dialogue?" Sounds like something one of these characters you don't like would say. In fact, it sounds crass. Express yourself however you want. I like to curse, too. But I try not to contradict myself when I do it.

I don't know if Donaldson has read Faulkner but he seems to be inspired by the cruelty of that Southern writers prose.

Not a big fan of the Gradual Interview, are you? Try doing a search there for 'Faulkner.' You'll be fascinated how correct you are.

Read it at your peril, yet you may want to finish the whole thing. Which ends in a rather lame fashion.

Lame in what way? I thought it ended in the only way it could have ended. Donaldson is famous for saying that every sentence was "aimed like a laser" at the ending. It felt right to me.

I would like to mention Clarke's Childhood's End.

I would like to not only mention it, but whole-heartedly recommend it! I love that book, even though it's not character driven by any stretch of the imagination. I really like the philosophical theme.

[Roynish]

Enders Game. Its clever, written by a Mormon and is overrated.
Its an adolescent coming of age story basically.

Read some Banks or Simmons, or Reynolds. Much better fare.

What does that got to do with anything?

I don't know, a simple statement of fact.
N Dynamite that curious film was as well as far as I can gather.

And the fact they are trying to baptise every "dead person" so they can go to heaven, have offended the Jews from the holocaust. MMM thats OK I guess. Mormanism is fine I guess. A real sane way of living a life.

Any way South park has done the job on Mormons. And I don't have a problem just stating some curious facts.

Now back to some great responses to my albeit self-contradictory responses to The Gap.

I swore I would never re-read this torturous nihilistic piece littered with low-life nasty characters, but now feel compelled to do so.
Its strange that this book can have a hold on you. I guess to just make sure Donaldson wrote something so vile and nasty is one reason. To believe he can make the same banal joke again and again. That the thing actually got published and here I am talking about it again. Amazing.

It is bad sci-fi I mean really bad by any definition of the genre. The Gap will never and I mean never be mentioned in the classics of sci-fi. I don't believe that is a problem. Because it is fundamentally a Donaldson novel and that means pain and characters much like his best loved work.
As a previous pster stated their is the Faulkner in SRD and I think he loves it.
Read Light In August or fumble your way through the Sound and the Fury and you will see cruelty beyond SRD's but not much beyond. He is a cruel writer that dwells in a dark place.

Thanks for the replies on this forum that gets little traffic. As to the mormon comment it is a statement of fact that 's all. I can see how I might appear to be a religious bigot. I am not. I merely state the facts. I am an atheist as you may gather.

Regards.

[Roynish]

I don't think Assimov is abusing his scientific background. Actually the Foundation trilogy is science fiction, with the science part "light".

Rather I'd say that Assimov's scientific background makes his work more "realistic" in the science parts.

Yeah, Foundation is actually more of a "feigned history" than anything else. It's an extrapolation of social sciences, which probably makes it more accessible and a little more philosophical.

Sci-Fi at it's best is an extremely philosophical medium, which is one reason I like it so much. Most actual "philosophers" and philosophy teachers and scholars tend to completely forget what I consider to be an entire branch of philosophy. How does man live and change with advances in technology? The impact technology has had on humanity is an extremely underrepresented social and philosophical question. The only group of people who consistently explore that question are "speculative fiction writers". In short, science fiction writers. In my mind there is absolutely no discernible difference between the two. (Except for how it's shelved in a bookstore or library) Science fiction is more than just a setting, it is about man's relationship with technology.

There is a whole branch of Social Science(philosophy if you like) that has fully dedicated itself to understanding man and technology. It has been plying its trade for 20 to 30 years. Its called Actor Network Theory. Baudrillard the French philosopher and Bordeaux in particular have been looking at this for decades. Its not only sf writers and never has been. The institutional economists of early 20th century America also had a take on it. Veblen, Commons. Check the names out and read some stuff, you might be suprised.

[Loredoctor]

I swore I would never re-read this torturous nihilistic piece littered with low-life nasty characters, but now feel compelled to do so.
Its strange that this book can have a hold on you. I guess to just make sure Donaldson wrote something so vile and nasty is one reason. To believe he can make the same banal joke again and again. That the thing actually got published and here I am talking about it again. Amazing.

Yes, here you are again repeating yourself.

It is bad sci-fi I mean really bad by any definition of the genre. The Gap will never and I mean never be mentioned in the classics of sci-fi.

It got a mention by John Clute in his classics of sci-fi, it has wide-spread respect, not only by mere fans (also some famous people).

I don't believe that is a problem. Because it is fundamentally a Donaldson novel and that means pain and characters much like his best loved work.

His novels are more than about pain. What makes the Gap a great series of books is that the stories it tells is gripping; he tells a great story. You don't like the pain, but don't preach to us that it makes a bad book. I've been reading sci-fi since a very early age, and have read hundreds of sci-fi books (am more than familar with the classics), and I think that makes me an expert. The Gap is damn good.

Anyway, you have made your point and are repeating yourself, Roynish. I'm more than happy for you to post in the Gap forum, however.

[Orlion]

It's definately among my favorites, though as far as science fiction is concerned, I really liked The Caves of Steel by Isaac Asimov (aside from his short stories, this is a good starting point for those new to Asimov) and the World of Null-A by A.E. VanVogt (sure, it was written in a time when people thought Venus was a jungle planet, but I try not to let it distract me ). I'm just surprised that SRD refers to the GAP series as a space opera, I view it easily as science fiction in its own right! (Explanation: Space Opera to me is like fantasy in space, like Star Wars. Not saying anything's wrong with the genre, it's just not science fiction to me ).

[wayfriend]

"space opera" refers to it being a long story told from many points of view, all the different threads weaving together. The term doesn't detract from it's also being science fiction. IMO the best science fiction stories ARE space operas. Even the Dune series fits the description. The Hyperion Cantos and Hamilton's Night's Dawn (The Reality Dysfunction, etc.) are great examples; there's nothing shameful about being in their ranks.