Nyle

"Reflect" on Stephen Donaldson's other epic fantasy

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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

I've been going through the dissections of TMOHD and while reading Torrent's post here: https://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/v ... a430#98550 had an epiphany.

Why did Nyle feel wronged enough to betray his king? We know about how Joyce gave his attention to Geraden and overlooked Nyle. That he despised him a bit. It's gone over at length at the end of AMRT. But there is another reason for Nyle to hate Joyce that I haven't noticed till now that is maybe even more important.

In chapter 19, Elega says
”I consider him a friend. And I respect him. He has a-a seriousness of mind?-no, a seriousness of desire which his brothers apparently lack. It is inconceivable, for instance, that he would spend Geraden’s years trying and failing to become an imager. And it also is inconceivable that he would learn Artagel’s skills and then refuse to use them-as Artagel has refused-to rise in command of the King’s guards. There was a time,” she admitted, “when if he had expressed an interest in my hand I would have taken him as seriously as he took me”
Now on the face of it this was just Nyle lacking guts to ask for her hand but that doesn't really fit what we know about these two. They're both determined and will do what they believe in. If they both loved each other and she was prepared to marry him why did nothing happen?

As the story progresses we learn more and more details about the augury Havelock cast about Joyce and which Joyce faithfully follows throughout the story to see its promises realized. There is of course the image of Geraden as an important imager, the first point of contention with Nyle but there is another image: Elega spreading her legs for prince Kragen in his tent, if I remember Havelock's description of it correctly. (an image that might have rather a lot to do with the way prince Kragen was humiliated when he came as the Alend ambassador to Joyce.)

To achieve a future where this image is realized Elega mustn't marry Nyle. We know Joyce betrothed her initially to Geraden which he must have been sure would have come to nothing. We should assume he dissueded Nyle and Elega from getting together in other ways.

So, though Nyle may not have been consciously aware of it, King Joyce sabotaged his love life for the sake of a prophecy. After everything he's been through in the story it's doubtful whether he will ever find happiness in that department.
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Post by Cameraman Jenn »

Badabing Badaboom! You nailed it. You sacrifice the few for the good of the many.
Now if I could just find a way to wear live bees as jewelry all the time.....

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I think it's nearly time for a re-read. :D

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Avatar wrote:I think it's nearly time for a re-read. :D

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I wouldn't be averse to it. We tried to do one a couple of years ago but only reached about midway through TMOHD
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Count me in on a reread!
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Post by Cameraman Jenn »

Don't know if I told you guys that I returned the SRD favor to my Dad a few years back. He gave me the Chrons when we were snowed in and me in my teens. He never read MN and I left part one when I visited last (his 70th B'day) and he picked it up and was hooked and sent me an angry email since part 2 was not readily available locally in rural VA. He was jonesing for it. HAHAHAHAAHA!
Now if I could just find a way to wear live bees as jewelry all the time.....

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shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Avatar wrote:I think it's nearly time for a re-read. :D

--A
I wouldn't be averse to it. We tried to do one a couple of years ago but only reached about midway through TMOHD
Haha, a reread, not a new dissection. ;)

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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

After the success of "Norge"-thread I thought I would air my doubts about another character, that being Nyle, Geraden'a brother who got tangled in Elega's plotting with Prince Kragen and later used and tortured by Eremis's circle.

I don't consider him a weak or unbelievable character but the happy ending he got at the end of the duology seemed a bit forced to me. Would the Alend ruler and his people really embrace him as the heir for being a tool in other people's machinations throughout the story? The reasoning given (Nyle won't be reckless like Kragen but catious and even-tempered) didn't sound all that logical to me. What's to prevent someone from using him again? Maybe we can see that's not likely but surely the Alends would view him thusly? Maybe his connections in the victorious Mordant and with the new rulers of Cadwal is enough to make him attractive. Being weak-willed and easily led might also paint him out as a perfect useful figurehead to the various Alend factions. So that would make his happy ending not really happy and I don't think that was how Donaldson intended his ending to be read.

On a different note, was King Joyce's apology enough? Could Nyle embrace him after everything that's happened? Isn't it a little too little too late for him? Joyce make it a public spectacle as well. I don't know. I don't think Nyle would forget all his grievances just like that but maybe Joyce is charming and charismatic enough to pull it of.

What do you think?
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Well, I suppose we could argue that he's learned a lesson in being used, and so would be protected from it in the future?

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Post by JIkj fjds j »

I don't have any thoughts on Nyle as it's been way too many years since reading, The Mirror of Her Dreams.

Oddly enough, a while ago I had worked with a meditational (2yr course) book that encouraged imaginative exploration (some of which was sourced from Eric Berne's bestseller, The Games People Play). The idea being that one imagines walking into and through the back of a wardrobe, and down a spiral staircase to "Inner Rooms". After visiting these inner rooms on a regular basis a change might occur in the psyche, as explorative activity percolates up into daily consciousness.
I stopped smoking as a result. A beneficial side affect to a cure for a long term of mental disorder.
I digress.

The meditational course work I'd used happened to be based on the Egyptian pantheon. Though any would do. It's interesting to note that the name Nyle, parallels this strangely, and now has me absolutely fascinated. I really must make the time to read Mordan't Need again, and find out what happened in part II: A Man Rides Through - which I hadn't finished.

Thanks

edit: A local bookshop had, A Man Rides Through. But no, Mirror of her Dreams.
Which meant I could afford to buy two thin Pelican's as well. A good day's shop.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

You pose some interesting questions about Nyle, Shadowbinding Shoe, that's for sure!
Right now, I'm doing a re-read of the Mordant's Need books (to then be followed by my first re-read of the Gap Cycle), and I haven't come to the part of TMOHD where Nyle first appears. When I've gotten to read up more about him, I promise I'll come back to this thread!
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Post by Avatar »

I think I'm gonna do both those rereads too, as soon as I've finished Card's "Alvin" books.

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shadowbinding shoe wrote:So, though Nyle may not have been consciously aware of it, King Joyce sabotaged his love life for the sake of a prophecy. After everything he's been through in the story it's doubtful whether he will ever find happiness in that department.
I agree with Jenn that you nailed it right there, shoe! All Nyle can hope for is that he'll make Elega proud of him, nothing more.:(
The following is from when Terisa and Geraden spot Nyle while Elega is taking them shopping in the courtyard.
Distantly, Geraden replied, "He's been nursing a passion for her for years, but he thinks it's hopeless. He thinks--" he frowned in vexation. "I don't understand it. He thinks he isn't grand or special enough for her. He hasn't done anything dramatic in the world. He knows she's ambitious, and he's sure she won't have him. I think it galls him that I was the one who was betrothed to her--and I let her get away.

"He told us he was going to stay in Houseldon all winter to talk himself out of asking for her hand."

"So you think he came to Orison to see if she'll have him?"

Geraden nodded. His face was tight with empathy. "But I guess he hasn't asked her yet. If he did, and she turned him down, he wouldn't stick around. So she must have done something to hurt him before he got his courage nailed down tightly enough to actually propose. He can't leave because he hasn't done what he came for. But he's in too much pain to do it.

"Blast her." He glanced at Terisa. "I'm guessing, of course. But look at them. Whatever it is, she knows what's eating at him."

The glimpses Terisa caught through the crowd seemed to confirm Geraden's opinion. Elega was talking to Nyle--pleading with him?--as though she knew what to say. And his answers--brusque as they were--suggested understanding, even approval.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

"Nyle." Geraden held himself still. Even his voice became still. "I heard you. I was there." He included Terisa. "We were there. We heard everything you said. And Prince Kragen."

For just a second, Nyle gaped at his brother. He gaped at Terisa.

Mutely, she nodded in confirmation.

He straightened his shoulders, and anger closed his face like a shutter.

"So you've decided to stop me. Full of moral superiority, you've decided to stop me because you cling to the astonishing belief that King Joyse and chaos and terrible Imagery and a fresh start to the wars that crippled Mordant for generations are somehow preferable to putting the Perdon on the throne and saving the entire kingdom. You--"

"No." Geraden shook his head, suppressing violence. "It won't work. The Perdon will never accept Prince Kragen's offer--he knows that. He's sending you to do this to confuse the issue, so the Perdon won't have a chance to fight for Orison when Alend attacks."

"You're wrong, Geraden." Terisa was surprised to hear herself speak. Her voice was like a small animal huddling against the cold and barely alive. "I'm sorry. I've met the Perdon. I've seen him and Prince Kragen together. He's desperate. He won't turn the Prince down."

Geraden gave her a quick look of dismay; but Nyle didn't glance away from his brother. "Even if that's not true," he resumed, "you're acting like a child. Prince Kragen is right. The Alend Monarch is right. The worst thing that can happen to us is for High King Festten to get his hands on the Congery.

"We're already being torn apart by an Imager no one can find or stop. Cadwal will be able to decimate everything west of the Vertigon if the Congery falls. On our mother's grave, Geraden, we ought to beg Margonal to invade us.

"Instead of interfering, why don't you figure out what you're going to say to all the families who are going to be butchered--all the children who are going to be bereaved--all the men and women who are going to be maimed and massacred when King Joyse finally collapses and no power strong enough to hold the realm together takes his pace?

"In the meantime, get out of my way."

Thrusting between Geraden and Terisa, he stamped off after his horse.

The dismay on Geraden's face got worse. For a moment, he seemed unable to move. Confused and alarmed, Terisa reached out a hand to him. "Geraden?"

Abruptly, his features knotted, and he swung into motion.

Chasing Nyle, he yelled, "That's great! Wonderful! You're right, of course. You're being perfectly reasonable. Our father is going to be very proud of you."

Nyle flinched, but kept on walking.

"There's just one thing. What about loyalty? King Joyse is our father's friend. What about self-respect? You're betraying your King, the man who made Mordant and peace out of nothing but bloodshed. How are you planning to live the rest of your life without loyalty or self-respect?"

"Loyalty to whom?" Though Nyle's stride didn't falter, his shout was like a cry. "King Joyse? When was he ever loyal to me?

"He met all of us. He must have seen me dying for his notice, his approval. But you're the one he invited to Orison. When he decided to betroth Elega, he chose you. And a brilliant choice it was, too. You've certainly vindicated his good judgment, haven't you? Forgive me, but I find it a little difficult to feel warm and sentimental about that man.

"And he going to get us all killed!" Small pieces of his distress echoed back from the tree trunks. "Don't you understand that? How much self-respect are you going to get out of giving your life for a man who sacrificed you simply because he couldn't be bothered to hold his realm together? If you want to talk about self-respect, ask yourself whey you place so little value on your own blood. I won't even mention the blood of all the people you claim to care about."
From this I gather that much of Nyle's reasons for betrayl come from Prince Kragen's argument about the Congery must never fall in Festten's hands, and his remaining reasons involve grudges over being slighted by King Joyse. And, as Shadowbinding Shoe has pointed out, because the King sabotaged any chance of a future relationship between Nyle and Elega.
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Geraden wasn't listening. He stared at the body hanging from the stallion. Terisa could see the contours of his face aging. "Argus," he said thickly. "I got you killed."

"Very good," Nyle snarled at him. "This is wonderful. Now you've got the worst of both sides. Without Prince Kragen, you can't stop Margonal's army. But you insisted on stopping me. This way, the Alend Monarch won't have any choice. After he breaks Orison, he'll have to keep it for himself."
One more reason for Nyle's betrayal: if he'd succeeded, at least he'd have betrayed the King so that another Mordant would be sitting on the throne, rather than an Alend or Cadwal.
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Post by Cord Hurn »

Shadowbinding Shoe, I've now finished my re-read of Mordant's Need, so am looking at the relevant texts to consider the questions/objections you have raised.
King Joyse's smile was as bright and cleansing as the warm sunlight and the ineffable sky.

When he looked at Nyle, however, his smile went away.

He dismounted; he strode toward Nyle sternly, like a sovereign with a traitor to punish.

Then he stopped.

Instead of speaking harshly, he murmured, "Nyle, forgive me."

Nyle's face twisted helplessly. "Forgive--? My lord King, I betrayed you."

"Yes!" King Joyse retorted at once. "you betrayed me--as my daughter Elega betrayed me--as the Congery betrayed me. And because I was betrayed this victory became possible. Everything you did against me, you did out of love and honor. And for that reason everything you did played its part in the saving of my realm. You betrayed me to do Mordant good, Nyle. I failed you. I failed to see your importance, your worth, when my esteem would have been to your benefit.

"I could not have protected you from hurt. But I could have helped you place a higher value on yourself."

Nyle tried to answer; there may have been a number of things he wanted to say. But he couldn't control his weeping.

Both Artagel and Geraden put their arms around him.

King Joyse turned away to address everyone within earshot.

"Nyle has suffered," he announced in a tone both grim and elated, sorry and glad. "Do you hear me? He is not a traitor. He has suffered as the Perdon suffered, and as the Tor suffered, and Castellan Lebbick, because his love is strong and he did not understand."

As he spoke, his voice carried farther and farther, until it reached the walls and the armies, the men of Mordant and Alend and Cadwal throughout the valley.

"A great many good men have suffered and died, among them Master Quillon, who served my purposes when I could risk them with no one else, and Castellan Norge, who served Orison and Mordant and all of you with his life. And with their pain they have purchased a victory which we could not have gained otherwise.

"Remember that they were hurt for us! Remember that we have freedom and victory and life because of them!

"And because all of you fought like heroes!

"Now the world is ours, and we must heal it. From this day, let us make our world a place of peace.'

When he finished, the cheering went on for a long time.
Blind, weary, content--and unwilling to face the rigors of a second journey to Orison--the Alend Monarch had sent his new Contender to stand in his place at the wedding: a man who now could claim precedence over everyone in Orison except King Joyse and Queen Madin, because of his position as Margonal's representative and potential successor.

The new Alend Contender was Nyle.

Arriving for the ceremony, he still appeared perplexed and a bit daunted by his circumstances. But when Kragen had been installed as High Regent in Carmag, Margonal had needed another Contender; and the Alend Monarch had sensed in Nyle a man with a newborn but almost ferocious instinct for caution. Caution, the Monarch had declared, was the fundamental requirement for anyone who meant to rule over Scarab and the Alend Lieges. Kragen had shown himself altogether too prone to risks, and Margonal wished to replace him with someone who lacked that flaw.

Nyle had refused the honor--or the responsibility--at first. He didn't deserve it, he wasn't worthy. Eventually, however, King Joyse had confronted him with a royal command, and he had felt himself forced to acquiesce.

The reports which King Joyse had since received from the Alend Monarch indicated theat Nyle was proving to be exactly the Contender Margonal wanted, despite his self-distrust.
Well, King Joyse certainly didn't cause Master Gilbur to practice his debauchery on Nyle, and likely couldn't even have forseen it, unless it was in Havelock's augery (I doubt it). His public apology, and his proclamation that Nyle had suffered because his love was strong and he didn't understand, may have been enough for Nyle to forgive him for slighting his importance. The ability to forgive is up to the individual, so maybe it was enough for Nyle.

Perhaps the ending with Nyle being a satisfying Contender for Margonal was forced, but then again, maybe Nyle knew now how to balance the desires of the different Alend barons in order to produce a stronger Alend union without showing to much favoritism for any particular Liege. But, what in Nyle's experience would make him better at this? I'm having trouble finding an answer to that one. :confused:
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Post by Iolanthe »

I really can't take to Nyle at all. I've just re-read Mordant's Need and still don't know very much about him.

He had wanted to serve Joyse since he was a child, but Joyse didn't notice him. He was the only brother (apart from Stead, who seems to be happy as he is) who wasn't married/employed usefully. He thinks Joyse owes him something. He was in love with Elega but couldn't have her. This last was his motive (to please Elega) for allying with Prince Kragen, but he seems to be unhappy about that too. Everything that happened to him from then on was due to Geraden's intervention when he went off to see the Perdon. He did turn back to help Gereden and Terisa against the Callat, which was his one saving grace.

Had we known him before he appeared at the bazaar his character may have developed more sympathetically. I'm obviously missing something!
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Thanks for the quotes, Cord Hurn. Indeed, being broken doesn't often make you stronger, quite the opposite. It's underlying strength that might be revealed by hardship but I never got much of that from Nyle.

Oh, Nyle is not a very likeable fellow, Iolanthe. King Joyce himself struggles with that. Unlike the rest of his family, Nyle comes from a viewpoint of what is owed him instead of what he can give others (except for a few times). This makes him a contentious fellow that chews endlessly on his resentments but I think he might also contain the potential for strong loyalties.

Oh, wondering about your name and avatar I found Iolanthe the Opera and really enjoyed listening to it. Never heard it before. So thank you, Iolanthe.
A little knowledge is still better than no knowledge.
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Post by Iolanthe »

Thank you, shadowbinding shoe. I chose Iolanthe because I love the opera, and because I was in it when I was minus 6 months old. My mother was a pregnant fairy. :D
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Post by Cord Hurn »

I agree with Iolanthe and Shadowbinding Shoe that Nyle is not an easy character to "take to", as he's so full of resentment and self-pity. As Iolanthe says, his best moment is fighting the callat to save Geraden and Teresa, even though that gets him caught.
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