Points Arising. [Spoilers!]

[peter]

Just about half way through The last Dark for the second time and a few things have raised their heads that might not qualify for threads in themselves - but I'd like just to note them in case I've misunderstood, or others have forgotten, or just because they strike me as interesting.

1. [Question] Could Linden not have more sucessfully broken jeremiah's slab of Malachite away from the face by freezing the pockets of water she found rather than boiling it? {A case where SRD's knowledge of science or lack thereof, was more than usually apparent?}

2. [Point] Infelice, in her rant at Jeremiah outside the fain confirms the existence, or at least the Elohims belief in the existence of The Creator.

3. [Question] Why when all the Elohim are safe within the fain, does the chapter end with a comment that beyond the horizon the stars might still be going out. Surely with the Elohim thus protected this would have ceased.

4. [Point] Kastennesen had to be in close proximity to SWWNN in order for Kevins Dirt to be maintained. [Question] What was the 'mechanics' behind this? [eg We know the Sunbane was a corruption of the Earthpower permeating up from the ground. What is Kevins Dirt and how to the benighted pair contrive it's production?

5. [Question] Why did Infelice, on coercing the distraught Kastennesen into the fain counter his argument that his hate and pain was all that he was, with the comment that when he had been assuaged of it he would remember that he was the only Elohim who had ever loved - and been loved in return; ie the very 'crimes' for which the Elohim had appointed him to the Durance for in the first place!

[wayfriend]

Hmm...

1. [Question] Could Linden not have more sucessfully broken jeremiah's slab of Malachite away from the face by freezing the pockets of water she found rather than boiling it?

Water freezing would create a small amount of pressure. Water flash-boiling into steam within an [presumably] enclosed space creates a large amount of pressure. One will erode a mountain in a few million years. The other is essentially internal combustion.

2. [Point] Infelice, in her rant at Jeremiah outside the fain confirms the existence, or at least the Elohims belief in the existence of The Creator.

It may be they believe in the Creator, or it may be that they merely wish to invoke that particular metaphor to explain themselves. But I tend to think that they do believe.

3. [Question] Why when all the Elohim are safe within the fain, does the chapter end with a comment that beyond the horizon the stars might still be going out. Surely with the Elohim thus protected this would have ceased.

The line is:

If more stars perished, they did so beyond the horizons. Jeremiah did not see them die.

I think the gist is that they are -not- seeing any more stars die. The comment was augmented to indicate that nothing was certain from their perspective. Hence: they gleaned no instant signs of hope from their success.

4. [Point] Kastennesen had to be in close proximity to SWWNN in order for Kevins Dirt to be maintained. [Question] What was the 'mechanics' behind this? [eg We know the Sunbane was a corruption of the Earthpower permeating up from the ground. What is Kevins Dirt and how to the benighted pair contrive it's production?

I am not sure that the "mechanics" are ever revealed. However, SWMNBN was not actually making the Dirt; rather, her power was being harnessed by others, who were making it. Kastenessen, and perhaps a Raver as well, "shaped" her "energies" in order to make the Dirt.

His presence was required to channel and shape and direct the bane’s fearsome energies.

5. [Question] Why did Infelice, on coercing the distraught Kastennesen into the fain counter his argument that his hate and pain was all that he was, with the comment that when he had been assuaged of it he would remember that he was the only Elohim who had ever loved - and been loved in return; ie the very 'crimes' for which the Elohim had appointed him to the Durance for in the first place!

I am not sure that his crime was "love". His crime was loving someone in a way that harmed them.

Loving her, he wrought her ruin and knew it not. He did not choose to know it. [...] Yet had he
been present to bespeak his own defense, still would he have been Appointed, for he had brought harm to a woman who could not have harmed him, and he had called it love.

But even back in TOT, when Kastenessen was introduced, Findail said of him, "He did that which no Elohim has ever done. He gave himself in love to a mortal woman." That was, indeed, unique; but it was not the crime.

[Vraith]

Question 1: Probably could have frozen it...but would it have been enough?
Freezing water increases volume...but by less than 10%. Making it colder won't increase the pressure. Heating continues to scale.
So, if 10-ish% was enough, freezing would have worked better---but only if that was enough. [actually probably significantly less than 10% effect---since it would expand/press in all directions]

Question 5: Speculation---but I think it was to show that everyone/thing can learn and change. If Her Ladyship, Supreme Narcissist of the People of Infinite Self-Worship, can learn/grow, then anyone can.

[JIkj fjds j]

4. [Point] Kastennesen had to be in close proximity to SWWNN in order for Kevins Dirt to be maintained. [Question] What was the 'mechanics' behind this? [eg We know the Sunbane was a corruption of the Earthpower permeating up from the ground. What is Kevins Dirt and how to the benighted pair contrive it's production?

Come on guys!
There's a very prominent character who goes by the name of Lord Foul.
Then there's Kevin's Dirt.

If you add 2 +2 ... (pun intended)

[dlbpharmd]

1. [Question] Could Linden not have more sucessfully broken jeremiah's slab of Malachite away from the face by freezing the pockets of water she found rather than boiling it? {A case where SRD's knowledge of science or lack thereof, was more than usually apparent?}

Linden's ability with the SoL is limited due to her lack of lore. Nearly every manifestation of power that she exhibits is through fire. She would have no idea how to use Earthpower to freeze.

[peter]

Thanks guys. I'm really enjoying my re-read of The Last Dark. I suspected before, but now can pretty much confirm it as being my favorite book of The Last Chrons.

[peter]

After having sex outside the fain in TLD, Linden questions why TC's beard no longer grows. He suggests that in his summoning he effectively was recreated by her in his image. Is this a foreshadow of the grand recreation they jointly perform at the end of the book?

[wayfriend]

That is a really fine point! Donaldson would not have included that odd statement without a reason.

I have said before that the way Covenant re-created his broken mind in the Falls (at the end of AATE) seems to be a pre-cursor of the Final Resolution. But, now that you point it out, Linden herself re-created Covenant's body before that. The notion that Covenant is beardless because Linden imagined him beardless points out that Linden, in fact, did "create" him. And that the thoughts of a creator inform his/her creation in a myriad, subtle ways.

(I also think that Covenant re-created a family for himself, which also fits the re-creation theme. But that's more debatable.)

By the time the Worm destroys the Earth, we can see that Linden, Covenant, and Jeremiah have all participated in lesser acts of creation. They were getting ready for "the big one" and didn't even know it.

[Vraith]

. The notion that Covenant is beardless because Linden imagined him beardless points out that Linden, in fact, did "create" him. And that the thoughts of a creator inform his/her creation in a myriad, subtle ways.

Yes. But it goes both ways sometimes [and this is one of them].
Like the thing about sculptors saying they just reveal what is already in the stone, only more so cuz TC really does have some nature/essence/knowing to go along with Linden's knowledge/vision OF him.
hmmm...that connects with Jerry, too. Far as I recall he never even considers carving/chiseling/forming his materials to do anything. His power isn't so much to "create" doors or fanes. It is to make explicit/reveal the implicit possibilities through conjunction/coordination/assemblage.
Enables the embodiment of abstractions?
Ya know...ok...now...
We've got a fun thing here, maybe...
The Creator has to be "outside" [despite some thoughts elsewhere about the Creator being gone/not caring/not existing we can be pretty sure he's not. Else LF wouldn't have a plan to trap him using Jerry]
SHE [which/who made love possible] has to be "outside."
Yet/And/But---their opposites, LF and the Worm, have to be "inside."
[[People have said things similar/related to this, I think...but a cloud/fog of new/vague intuitions/implications is billowing up in my head...sorry to digress your topic with my misty wonderings, peter.]]

[peter]

Your misty wonderings have kept me entertained and thinking for years V. Long may it continue to be so.........

Wonder away!