At the end of the first series, the Creator offers Covenant the chance to be cured of his leprosy. Covenant refused, but we must assume must we not that the offer was genuine and that the Creator could not know in advance that he would do so. Saying Covenant had not refused? Where would that have placed him in later challenges - or would there have been none. Would TC have returned home and won back Joan. Would his son have been spared his descent into madness?
Does this offer 'fit' with the rest of the series, or is it a small area that cannot really be reconciled into the whole - an artifact that stubbornly afirms SRD's intention to write a single trilogy in the first instance.
What if TC had accepted?.
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peter
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What if TC had accepted?.
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
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wayfriend
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I think that this question has been discussed before, and probably goes back many years. But I think it's worth a re-assessment at the end of the story.
The "what if" parts remain impossible to answer, however, except as exercises in imagination. The author created Covenant so that he would refuse the offer on principle, and the offer was made so that Covenant could be seen refusing it. Covenant would have had to have been a different man to accept the offer; had he been a different man, would he even have survived to that point?
But if you want to discuss how the offer "fits" into the story, I think you would need to see the relationship between Covenant and the Creator, and then consider how that relationship changes over time.
In the beginning, the Creator is prodding and poking Covenant along, because Covenant does not see any responsibility. In the middle, Covenant has assumed the responsibilities of the Land in many ways, and has shaped the Land in as many. By the final end, Covenant creates his own new Land. In all of this, I don't see Covenant and the Creator as "one" (as can be said of Covenant and Foul) so much as I see Covenant taking over the Creator business from a predecessor.
If you want to strain that metaphor, then I consider the offer in question in this way: the Creator "hired" Covenant to do some work for him, and now he's offering a payment for services rendered. Accepting the payment, Covenant and the Creator would be releasing themselves from each other - nothing is owed, there are no further expectations of either party, have a nice life. But by refusing, Covenant is saying he wants to keep everything he learned on that job, and keep it sharp. Which makes him a better candidate for a larger position in the company down the road. He's grooming himself for management, as it were.
Another, simpler, less weird way of looking at it is this: the offer is the Creator giving Covenant a chance to get out of Creator-work while he still has a chance too. Before it takes over his life. Maybe it's even a test -- the Creator does that.
The "what if" parts remain impossible to answer, however, except as exercises in imagination. The author created Covenant so that he would refuse the offer on principle, and the offer was made so that Covenant could be seen refusing it. Covenant would have had to have been a different man to accept the offer; had he been a different man, would he even have survived to that point?
But if you want to discuss how the offer "fits" into the story, I think you would need to see the relationship between Covenant and the Creator, and then consider how that relationship changes over time.
In the beginning, the Creator is prodding and poking Covenant along, because Covenant does not see any responsibility. In the middle, Covenant has assumed the responsibilities of the Land in many ways, and has shaped the Land in as many. By the final end, Covenant creates his own new Land. In all of this, I don't see Covenant and the Creator as "one" (as can be said of Covenant and Foul) so much as I see Covenant taking over the Creator business from a predecessor.
If you want to strain that metaphor, then I consider the offer in question in this way: the Creator "hired" Covenant to do some work for him, and now he's offering a payment for services rendered. Accepting the payment, Covenant and the Creator would be releasing themselves from each other - nothing is owed, there are no further expectations of either party, have a nice life. But by refusing, Covenant is saying he wants to keep everything he learned on that job, and keep it sharp. Which makes him a better candidate for a larger position in the company down the road. He's grooming himself for management, as it were.
Another, simpler, less weird way of looking at it is this: the offer is the Creator giving Covenant a chance to get out of Creator-work while he still has a chance too. Before it takes over his life. Maybe it's even a test -- the Creator does that.
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Vraith
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It's a big thing with lots of possibilities I'm not right in the mood to think on now. Maybe that will change.
One thing, though:
The question definitely takes on a different meaning considered as "the end of a story, period," which was the original intent. At that level, it's a pretty concrete/simple answer, which WF pretty much hits dead on. Saying "no" makes him one kind of man. [a man consistent with person we've seen]. Saying yes makes him a different kind of man. [one inconsistent with the person we've seen.]
And one other thing: not only does the answer "fit" with the rest of the series...it's one of the things that makes the continuation of the series possible at all. "Structurally"---in the sense that it is a fact that doesn't have to be altered/retconned in any way, or "made up" for in other ways [like...I don't know...giving him a different disease that is somehow as horrible? Somehow, TC to continue, has to be threatened internally as well as externally, morally/mentally inherent problem with himself].
And thematically---the hard choices, the meaning-makers, the safe and wished/granted vs. the risky and authentic/made. Other things, too.
A happy synchronicity that the choice [SRD's and TC's] was consistent with the first, and created the most/best options for the unanticipated continuation.
One thing, though:
The question definitely takes on a different meaning considered as "the end of a story, period," which was the original intent. At that level, it's a pretty concrete/simple answer, which WF pretty much hits dead on. Saying "no" makes him one kind of man. [a man consistent with person we've seen]. Saying yes makes him a different kind of man. [one inconsistent with the person we've seen.]
And one other thing: not only does the answer "fit" with the rest of the series...it's one of the things that makes the continuation of the series possible at all. "Structurally"---in the sense that it is a fact that doesn't have to be altered/retconned in any way, or "made up" for in other ways [like...I don't know...giving him a different disease that is somehow as horrible? Somehow, TC to continue, has to be threatened internally as well as externally, morally/mentally inherent problem with himself].
And thematically---the hard choices, the meaning-makers, the safe and wished/granted vs. the risky and authentic/made. Other things, too.
A happy synchronicity that the choice [SRD's and TC's] was consistent with the first, and created the most/best options for the unanticipated continuation.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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wayfriend
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Looking at the first Chronicles as a thing to themselves, I have to repeat what I said about Epic Vision: Covenant, as the hero, needed to go home at the end, and go home a changed man, in order to fulfill Donaldson's requirement that his fantasy creates a "connection between the metaphors of fantasy and the facts of the modern reality". I really do think that this probably overshadows anything else. If Covenant had stayed in the Land, it would diminish what the Chronicles could mean to us.
In the Second Chronicles, the connection was already forged, and Linden strengthened it because she went home. In the Final Chronicles, the connection was built strong enough that it was no longer necessary.
In the Second Chronicles, the connection was already forged, and Linden strengthened it because she went home. In the Final Chronicles, the connection was built strong enough that it was no longer necessary.
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Let's look at the text.
Either of the "gifts" offered by the Creator would have required Covenant to abandon Unbelief. This, I think, strongly supports what both Wayfriend and Vraith have written."Yes," the voice whispered. "Perhaps for you it is enough. Yet for my own sake I wish to give you a gift. Please permit me."
"No." Covenant's refusal was weary rather than belligerent. He could not think of anything he would be able to accept.
"I can return you to the Land. You could live out the rest of your life in health and honour, as befits a great hero."
"No." Have mercy on me. I couldn't bear it. "That's not my world. I don' t belong there."
"I can teach you to believe that your experiences in the Land have been real."
"No." It's not that easy. "You'll drive me insane."
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peter
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Yes, I think that TC's refusal was absolutely tied to his need not to have to confront the reality of the Land head on - and indeed ours. I'm going to be contentious here and say I'm not fully convinced however,that this aspect of the works is as consistent as it might be - but I don't think it matters! The works in full are complex,open to interpretation - paradoxical! They are what they are.
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
-
wayfriend
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I am at a loss, peter, trying to see what you see here, and see what doesn't fit. It seems to me that it has to do with the Creator rewarding Covenant in some way. But you would have to confirm that.
But Covenant had always been rewarded, throughout ten books. The people of the Land rewarded him with respect before he even earned it. He received no end of gifts. His struggles rewarded him with new and better approaches to life. And he himself often remarks how he had been blessed with such effective friends. If anything, Covenant struggled under the weight of all these gifts ... which his interaction with the Creator demonstrates.
DrPaul (thank you!) reminded us of Covenant's specific reaction. His response was that it "will drive me insane." But, personally, I don't think this is a matter of the Land's reality -- he had come to terms with this, I feel, and engaged in both belief and unbelief equally at the end. No, I think that this is more to do with Covenant still fearing promises of escape. The complex demands of his leprosy still demanded he accept who he is, and that avoiding who he was - a leper - still led to personal disaster. In short, he could not live without being a leper at this point. He had changed - he could live with it now. But the fundamental requirement remained. He knew who he was.
Maybe this is indirectly fearing to have his unbelief challenged, as you suggest. But more 'roundabout' than at first glance, if you know what I mean.
And ... to get back to the point ... in this light the Creator's offer is not only consistent, but the final end of a long thread that began on the sidewalk near the electric company. It's one final test of Covenant's newly acquired outlook on his own identity. One which he thinks on at very the end. "He had the law of his illness carved in large, undeniable letters on the nerves of his body; but he was more than that."
In the Final Chronicles, Covenant says "I need to be a leper." And: For a man like him, nothing undermined his foundations more than being cured. So that's consistent as well.
But Covenant had always been rewarded, throughout ten books. The people of the Land rewarded him with respect before he even earned it. He received no end of gifts. His struggles rewarded him with new and better approaches to life. And he himself often remarks how he had been blessed with such effective friends. If anything, Covenant struggled under the weight of all these gifts ... which his interaction with the Creator demonstrates.
DrPaul (thank you!) reminded us of Covenant's specific reaction. His response was that it "will drive me insane." But, personally, I don't think this is a matter of the Land's reality -- he had come to terms with this, I feel, and engaged in both belief and unbelief equally at the end. No, I think that this is more to do with Covenant still fearing promises of escape. The complex demands of his leprosy still demanded he accept who he is, and that avoiding who he was - a leper - still led to personal disaster. In short, he could not live without being a leper at this point. He had changed - he could live with it now. But the fundamental requirement remained. He knew who he was.
Maybe this is indirectly fearing to have his unbelief challenged, as you suggest. But more 'roundabout' than at first glance, if you know what I mean.
And ... to get back to the point ... in this light the Creator's offer is not only consistent, but the final end of a long thread that began on the sidewalk near the electric company. It's one final test of Covenant's newly acquired outlook on his own identity. One which he thinks on at very the end. "He had the law of his illness carved in large, undeniable letters on the nerves of his body; but he was more than that."
In the Final Chronicles, Covenant says "I need to be a leper." And: For a man like him, nothing undermined his foundations more than being cured. So that's consistent as well.
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peter
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The crux is in the 'and indeed ours' of my previous post. We also needed not to know the answer of the Land's reality or otherwise - or at least to have it forced upon us by an actualisation of a Land derived 'miracle' [beyond the one that the doctors actually did comment on when TC awoke - people do survive snakebites etc, but leprosy don't get cured {or ir didn't back then}]. But we have to assume that The Creator was aware that TC would be needed again in the future and that his leprosy would be a key element to his survival strategy in future tests. It's numbness hindered him - but protected him also; so then we assume the Creator was offering TC something that he knew he would need again, but did he know TC would refuse, but still make the offer because he knew TC needed to have it made. Or again did he just chance his arm. Save or Damn - and acceptance of healing would have been to damn?
[Mayhap I have misjudged this thing.............]
[Mayhap I have misjudged this thing.............]
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
-
wayfriend
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So you think that accepting the offer to live in the Land forever would have confirmed that the Land was real and not a dream?
Suppose the book HAD ended that way: Covenant accepts the offer, and appears by the tarn next to the people of the Land. Everyone bows down, or something, and Covenant accepts his mantle of hero-ness. Cut to hospital bed, where the monotonous blear of the heartbeat monitor confirms to the doctors that Covenant has died. They disconnect apparati and call ahead to the morgue.
Does Covenant now dwell out his life in the Land? Or was he merely having a sweet delusion before he expired? We'll never know. Whatever happens isn't connected to the real world any more.
So does that confirm the Land's existence somehow? I would call that the ambiguous ending of all ambiguous endings.
Suppose the book HAD ended that way: Covenant accepts the offer, and appears by the tarn next to the people of the Land. Everyone bows down, or something, and Covenant accepts his mantle of hero-ness. Cut to hospital bed, where the monotonous blear of the heartbeat monitor confirms to the doctors that Covenant has died. They disconnect apparati and call ahead to the morgue.
Does Covenant now dwell out his life in the Land? Or was he merely having a sweet delusion before he expired? We'll never know. Whatever happens isn't connected to the real world any more.
So does that confirm the Land's existence somehow? I would call that the ambiguous ending of all ambiguous endings.
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Vraith
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Well, you may have misjudged one thing.peter wrote: But we have to assume that The Creator was aware that TC would be needed again in the future
[Mayhap I have misjudged this thing.............]
Cuz you've gotten yourself caught up in a ceasure/time-threat.
You can't assume the Creator knew about any future need...
You can only get there by time traveling back from the existence of the second and third chron's and altering history to make the Creator know what he didn't know [and could not possibly know] in the original history.
Speculation is hard...but you're invoking retconning and Meta-Speculation.
But, if the Creator did know about the future need...yes, he would have still made the offer, ESPECIALLY if he knew some future need.
Because---if TC refuses [as he did] it affirms both TC's nature and his non-toolness.
If TC ACCEPTS---the Creator needs to find another Save/Damn-er.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
-
peter
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Wasn't TC offered the chance to return to the 'real' world cured of leprosy?
Yes - I freely admit to not having thought this one through properly, but it wouldn't be fair if I was right all the time and it does get the post-count up
.
Yes - I freely admit to not having thought this one through properly, but it wouldn't be fair if I was right all the time and it does get the post-count up
.The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
-
shadowbinding shoe
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I remembered the main deal as a cure from leprosy as well but the Creator never offers it, it's just something Covenant thinks. Odd. Are we the subject of mass madness like Joan's cult? I suppose curing him of leprosy would break the world's laws and free choice is as important there as in the Land. Getting healthy is only possible if he stays in the Land.
So now I tend to agree, accepting the offers would have symbolized retirement while refusing meant he was ready for more. But it was also the morally correct choice which is very important in these stories. By accepting the Creator's gifts he would degrade his actions in the Land a business transaction. And in a way the Creator then gives him both gifts.
What does teaching him to believe means anyway? Isn't suppressing his reaction to the antivennin a proof the Creator intervened and therefore it was all real? Aren't the vibrant memories in Covenant's mind of the beauty of the Land, his health there and his friendship with the people he met and their belief in him as good as actually living there?
By refusing his offer, Covenant transforms the two gift into authentic gifts instead of mercantile rewards.
Edit to add - regarding the original question, I don't think if he was cured of leprosy he wouldn't be able to face future challenges. The changes in him were mental insights and likewise his strengths.
But if he was cured, would he want to return to the carefree life he used to have? The people of his town, the church certainly would want it but could he accept their friendship after they didn't stand by him in his time of need? Could he overcome his anger toward them. Somehow I doubt it. He learned to accept his lot in life and to contain his resentment but that's not the same thing as forgiving. He would hide his miracle and shun his community. The same goes for his wife. He claims he understand her choice and doesn't blame her but there's no love left in him for her and he never expressed any feelings for their son.
But maybe he wouldn't stay in his lonely farm any longer. Now he could start over, maybe go into a missionary to help the ill, maybe even meet a certain traumatized doctor by the name of Linden Avery.
So now I tend to agree, accepting the offers would have symbolized retirement while refusing meant he was ready for more. But it was also the morally correct choice which is very important in these stories. By accepting the Creator's gifts he would degrade his actions in the Land a business transaction. And in a way the Creator then gives him both gifts.
What does teaching him to believe means anyway? Isn't suppressing his reaction to the antivennin a proof the Creator intervened and therefore it was all real? Aren't the vibrant memories in Covenant's mind of the beauty of the Land, his health there and his friendship with the people he met and their belief in him as good as actually living there?
By refusing his offer, Covenant transforms the two gift into authentic gifts instead of mercantile rewards.
Edit to add - regarding the original question, I don't think if he was cured of leprosy he wouldn't be able to face future challenges. The changes in him were mental insights and likewise his strengths.
But if he was cured, would he want to return to the carefree life he used to have? The people of his town, the church certainly would want it but could he accept their friendship after they didn't stand by him in his time of need? Could he overcome his anger toward them. Somehow I doubt it. He learned to accept his lot in life and to contain his resentment but that's not the same thing as forgiving. He would hide his miracle and shun his community. The same goes for his wife. He claims he understand her choice and doesn't blame her but there's no love left in him for her and he never expressed any feelings for their son.
But maybe he wouldn't stay in his lonely farm any longer. Now he could start over, maybe go into a missionary to help the ill, maybe even meet a certain traumatized doctor by the name of Linden Avery.
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peter
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I think you pretty much have to accept that this was Donaldsons way of signaling to us the reader that his intention was that the Land should ultimately be seen as a real place [most of us already did view it that way] rather than a figment of TC's mind [as well as his vehicle for letting TC know the same] otherwise it becomes a pointless comment - and as we have noted before SRD doesn't really do those.
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard