The King's Justice Discussion CONTAINS SPOILERS

For discussion about Stephen R. Donaldson's other works, Reed Stephens, group meetings, elohimfests, SRD sightings, and more.

Moderator: Seareach

User avatar
Seareach
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 5860
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:25 am

The King's Justice Discussion CONTAINS SPOILERS

Post by Seareach »

Hi everyone. A place for you to discuss The King's Justice. No need to use spoiler tags.
Image
User avatar
kevinswatch
"High" Lord
Posts: 5584
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 2:46 pm
Location: In the dark, lonely cave that dwells within my eternal soul of despair. It's next to a Pizza Hut.
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Post by kevinswatch »

So far I'm halfway through The King's Justice. So far so good. Interesting world setup so far. Curious where it will go.

I'm enjoying the writing as well, a little lighter than his typical crepuscular, formicating, puissant verbage?

Hope to finish it by the end of the week.

-jay
User avatar
SkurjMaster
<i>Elohim</i>
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:58 pm

Similarity

Post by SkurjMaster »

I can barely put this thing down! Yes, lighter writing, but very effective. I think that this could have been developed into a larger story. Maybe Donaldson will expand this world and this character. Reminds me of the other short stories with Reave the Just. Is that accurate, or just my poor memory?

This is Donaldson resurgent!
User avatar
ussusimiel
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 5346
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:34 am
Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland

Post by ussusimiel »

I finished The King's Justice a couple of days ago and enjoyed it.

It struck me as a very straightforward tale, the most interesting twist to it being that its setting suggested to me that this was essentially a Western in a fantasy setting. I don't know if SRD has overtly done this before, but it is effective and suggestive.

The system of magic in the story seemed fairly simple to me, with Light and Dark in opposition and Air and Fire in the minor position. The absence of gods leads to some interesting twists to the presence of religion in the story and it puts the King in a position of effectively being a god (or the god). A couple of things happen in the story that seem miraculous (e.g. the healing of Arbor) and aren't really explained.

I found that the characters of the two priests were the most interesting (probably since neither had any magical powers). It was also a feature of the story that we got very little insight into the life-story of the main character, but then he is the mysterious stranger who rides into town, isn't he?

I'll be interested to see what others think of the story.

u.
Tho' all the maps of blood and flesh
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
User avatar
wayfriend
.
Posts: 20957
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by wayfriend »

I, too, found it to be a simple, well-told tale.

If there's anything stunning about the resolution to this story, it's the form that the King's Justice takes. You expect the mysterious Black to deal out the justice; instead, we find that the King is quite capable of dealing out his own. Black is more of a private investigator than a constable. (In fact, you can taste more than a little Man Who in this story.)

I found the "shaping" of Black to be interesting - it's told so well that you won't be tempted to think about where that's been done before. But the theology is probably more deeply interesting than the magic. The priest of Dark turned out to be quite a decent guy, and, in light of that (if you will excuse the pun) the priest of Light was surprisingly decent as well. Despite admitting quite readily the farcical nature of their positions. And, perhaps most interesting, was that line about how gods don't answer prayers, but the King does.

(You can probably read into all that some sort of commentary on mainstream religion, but I trust that it's more about what the story needs.)

There's lots of background material that's hinted at but not explained. Knowing Donaldson, this is more for atmospherics than anything else.

The usual managerie of odd character names is here, too.

This is a pleasant story. Not earth-shattering. I consider it to be the lesser of the two novellas - lesser in length and lesser in depth, but not lesser in quality.

Something about the pace or tone of this story felt like Stephen King a little. I will try to put my finger on it. It's certainly not the main character, whose as devoid of personal character as he is of conversation. (Not a criticism -- it suits the story.) I think maybe the two priests brought to mind Needful Things a little bit. (We learn more about their personality than Black's.)
.
User avatar
ussusimiel
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 5346
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:34 am
Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland

Post by ussusimiel »

wayfriend wrote:If there's anything stunning about the resolution to this story, it's the form that the King's Justice takes. You expect the mysterious Black to deal out the justice; instead, we find that the King is quite capable of dealing out his own. Black is more of a private investigator than a constable. (In fact, you can taste more than a little Man Who in this story.)
This is a good point, wf, and it explains something I didn't really understand while I was reading the story: Black fairly deliberately puts himself in the way of danger. I wondered at this at the time, but now I see that his job was more to assess the situation and then, at the right moment, inform the King.

u.
Tho' all the maps of blood and flesh
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
User avatar
Iolanthe
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 3359
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:58 pm
Location: Lincolnshire, England
Contact:

Post by Iolanthe »

My book arrived on Wednesday afternoon and I had read The King's Justice by midnight - like SkurjMaster I couldn't put it down.

I found it very different from the longer books (Mordant, Chronicles). Black grew on me as the story unfolded. I'll have to read it again soon as I've forgotten a lot of the detail already! Struggling a bit with the Auger's Gambit, but will keep going.

Incidentally, the chap who looks after my central heating boiler was here today helping my plumber finish off my new shower. He saw The Kings Justice on the table and it turns out he's a big fan of SD. He didn't know TLD had been published but has read AATE. He's also read the GAP and Mordant's Need books. I told him about The Man Who ..... books. We may see him on here sometime as I also told him about the Watch!
I am playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order!

"I must state plainly, Linden, that you have become wondrous in my sight."
User avatar
kevinswatch
"High" Lord
Posts: 5584
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 2:46 pm
Location: In the dark, lonely cave that dwells within my eternal soul of despair. It's next to a Pizza Hut.
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Post by kevinswatch »

Just finished The King's Justice. Pretty good. I have no complaints. Very much a good classic SRD tale. I'll echo what most of you have said. The Dark Priest was probably the most interesting character. Played a good counter to Black.

What's the deal with Blossom though? She seems to be the most mysterious character. Showing up all of a sudden to save Black? I think I found that even more unbelievable than Arbor. At least Arbor's healing was hinted at earlier.

Anyway, on to The Augur's Gambit.

-jay
User avatar
Rigel
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2096
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Albuquerque

Post by Rigel »

Iolanthe wrote:Incidentally, the chap who looks after my central heating boiler was here today helping my plumber finish off my new shower. He saw The Kings Justice on the table and it turns out he's a big fan of SD. He didn't know TLD had been published but has read AATE. He's also read the GAP and Mordant's Need books. I told him about The Man Who ..... books. We may see him on here sometime as I also told him about the Watch!
Way to go for spreading the word :D

Anyway, I found this story quite similar in tone to Daughter of Regals. It's definitely high fantasy, but it seems more pretentious to me than anything.

"And then this thing happend, and OH MY GOD!"

But we, as readers, aren't given any reason to care. Which is odd, given that Donaldson is normally very good about writing his characters, and letting us connect with them.

I agree with WF about the shaping of Black being the most interesting part of the story. The compulsory aspect of it, especially.
"You make me think Hell is run like a corporation."
"It's the other way around, but yes."
Obaki, Too Much Information
User avatar
Cord Hurn
Servant of the Band
Posts: 7630
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:08 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Cord Hurn »

I just finished this story today. Like Ussusimiel, it felt like kind of a Western with meetings in taverns and going through swinging doors, and felt medieval also with swords, then there's the fantasy element. And the way Black dresses with the broad-rimmed hat as he's investigating deeds of evil gave the story a feel of a 1940s style mystery, too. Pretty entertaining, but I'm going to have to let the story settle in my mind for a bit before I really get a grip as to how I feel about it, as far as the details go.
User avatar
Cord Hurn
Servant of the Band
Posts: 7630
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:08 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Cord Hurn »

Several explanatory moments occur in this short story, but I consider the following quote to be the most important.
"Very well," begins Black. "You are aware, I hope, that you are both charlatans."

The priests stare, Father Whorry anxiously, Father Tenderson with wry sadness.

Black does not speak as he does to insult his listeners. Rather he attempts to shift the ground under their feet. If he succeeds, he may elicit replies that would escape him otherwise.

"You worship gods," he explains. "You encourage others in the same worship. Yet you are old enough to have some memory of a time when there were no temples. If you are not, your fathers were. In those days, no one imagined bright and dark as gods. They were known for what they are, elemental energies, nothing more. They exist, and they are mighty. But they are mindless. They do not think, or care, or answer. They are no more worthy of worship, and no less, than wind and sunlight."

Frowning now, Father Tenderson leans forward, his elbows on his knees, to give this visitor his full attention. Black's gaze stops a protest in Father Whorry's mouth. The Bright priest gulps wine to appease his indignation.

"There are four elemental energies," Black continues, "all potent. Together they make life possible in the world. But of the four, only bright and dark are accessible to shapers." When he sees that the word perplexes the priests, he says, "You may know such people as sorcerers. They have the knowledge and the means to draw power from one or the other, bright or dark. And when they draw power from one, they make the other commensurately stronger. They create an imbalance.

"It is true to say that the elemental energies make life possible, but it is also incomplete. The full truth is more fragile. It is both the energies themselves and the balance among them that enable life. Individually they are each too mighty to be survived, Any imbalance among them is fatal. It threatens every aspect of the living world.

"So much you know. Your fathers did if you do not."

"Then why do you tell us?" asks Father Tenderson . But he speaks softly. His is not impatient for Black's answer.

"The balance must be preserved," Black replies. "This task the King has taken upon himself. When one shaper seeks advantage, or several do, by calling upon bright, the King counters by making use of dark. Or the reverse. Thus he mediates between them.

"Certainly you are old enough to remember the old wars, or to have heard tales." Black sighs. He remembers too much. "They were terrible in bloodshed. Many good lands were laid waste. And the forces that the shapers called upon grew in ferocity until the King contrived to become the mediator of balance. Until he imposed his peace on the kingdom.

"He cannot end the evil that lurks in the hearts of our kind, but he can prevent a recurrence of the old wars. He can and does."
It surprised me when I read this passage, because I was thinking of Black as some sort of superhero that served just one side.

Later on in the story, it caught me off guard that he was more of a spy for the "superhero" King that we never see (though we certainly see what he can do), rather than a superhero himself, though he certainly has been granted some unusual abilities. It is, truly, the King's Justice.

At first, I did not care for the explanatory form of narration where we are always told what people are feeling, but I got used to it after a while, and came to like it.
User avatar
wayfriend
.
Posts: 20957
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by wayfriend »

When I read that, it seemed to be that Donaldson inverted the "natural" order of things, as far as standard fantasy goes ... the priests are very mundane, while the king is supernatural; the gods are insignificant, while the elements are all powerful.

To me, it's as if Donaldson is saying that such a framework allows for "balance", or at least the chance of it. Implying that putting priests above kings and gods above nature can only lead to imbalance.

If you follow that thought, then perhaps Donaldson believes that the world he built in this story has a better chance for "justice" and happy endings than the other kind. In this way, the world is part of the plot.
.
User avatar
Cord Hurn
Servant of the Band
Posts: 7630
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:08 pm
Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by Cord Hurn »

wayfriend wrote:If you follow that thought, then perhaps Donaldson believes that the world he built in this story has a better chance for "justice" and happy endings than the other kind. In this way, the world is part of the plot
Interesting thought. I can buy into that! :)
User avatar
Zarathustra
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 19621
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:23 am

Post by Zarathustra »

I just finished this last night. I'd say it's a fun little tale with a disappointing ending.

I really liked the change in writing style from SRD's usual verbose prose. Not only did it suit the brevity of the story, but also the character Black. There was something a bit inhuman about him, a little too clinical (perhaps due to his shaping, the missing parts of his soul). He was like a machine. And the writing style conveyed this as much as the content of the story. It gave the tale an extremely fast pace, perhaps faster than anything else SRD has achieved.

Another device Donaldson used to speed things up was Black's powers. Rather than argue with characters who didn't matter (e.g. town guards), Black simply touches his forearm, and *poof* no more argument. [In my opinion, probably the best super power ever. See: the Tank. 8) ] This, too, helped convey Black's mechanical, clinical attitude: cut through the insignificant to get to what's important. Though each of these little encounters had potential for drama--arguably one of the main points of story-telling--neither Black nor Donaldson paused to take advantage of those opportunities. Conflicts merely evaporated as Black pursued his larger goal. This played against reader expectations, since we've been trained to expect and crave conflict in stories.

These tools helped Donaldson create a murder mystery that was hard to put down. The story had great momentum. Every character interaction went on just long enough to move us to the next part. As long as the mystery was unsolved, I was hooked.

This brings us to the unsatisfying ending. Was anyone else disappointed that the climax is yet another showdown in a mountain cave, with a bad guy who bellows things like, "NOW I AM FEAR INCARNATE!" A clueless, angry, dumb bad guy whom the hero defeats despite the bad guy's arrogant certainty of his own mastery? The lava dude was like Foul and Kastenessen rolled into one. His motivation was reduced to a single emotion. I hate these types of endings.

I thought the magic system was a little too simple. And even as simple as it was, it managed to contradict itself with an unforeseen complication: dark is actually cold, which makes it great for defeating heat! Don't worry about dark being visual and cold being tactile, it makes sense! Oh yeah, light is great for defeating heat, too! Why? Because ... balance, or something. Bleh.

A nice experiment in style, but in the end disappointing.
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
User avatar
lurch
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2694
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:46 pm
Location: Dahm dahm, dahm do dahm obby do

Post by lurch »

Hello everyone! I promised a person I'd drop in and I am doing so. SRD's two new novellas seemed to me the best place to re enter The Watch. HOWDY!

I Liked TKJ and TAG. The first question popped into my head was..why these two..combined under one binding?.Or,do these two tales have a commonality enhanced by being together in the form of one book? I have found reason to believe a Yes to the question. They both deal with being left with Covenant and crew at the end of The Last Chronicles readying for the unknown future..the mystery of the unknown future. He has the Process down and is looking forward with Hope.

The " King" of King's Justice could be Thomas,,dealing with the unpleasantries that pop up to thwart Hope. The Need to be soberly prepared for the " unpleasantries" is Black. Lots of rain there. nice metaphor.Of course, I'm off into the figurative.

The author makes it easy to flit off into the figurative;As pointed out, lighter language, a reality that tends to cross over various time periods, eras or even seconds or minutes. Mystery at the heart of the tale forces one to search for the " King" ,opening doors to the imaginative as well. Well constructed imho.

Augers Gambit brings " LOVE" into this " dealing with unpleasant realities" . Ones " Talent" is the hero of the tale as it is with King's Justice. And, Like KJ, the Royal, is NOT the main Character! Matter of fact, the Queen has some flaws and possible weaknesses. She has a daughter named, " Excrucia" Remember that when You name a child. YEEooW A hint for the common man here? Magic Realism, Surrealism, whatever one wants to label it, is on display here. We all have a Talent, that by " Loving " it, defeats the unpleasantries of the Day.

Black's Leather Cloak and Hat ; a neat metaphor..impervious to the rain. He rides thru the Sad Opening a great distance. Time and Space washed away.

The various Spy's and subterfuges in the Queens realm demonstrate the many false facades that drain and confuse and distract from ones ' Love" of ones " Talent". Dead Ends, Traitors, Sins, are common in both novellas. Nice metaphors ." Indemnie" close enuf to indemnity to work as metaphor.?

Each " Hero" , in classic SRD fashion,,Trusts all the way to the impossible and is redeemed, rewarded , accordingly. Theres the Magic and The Sur of Surrealism. I like that the reader isn't let in on what the main character is plotting. Classic SRD here. The mystery is a slow reveal, suggesting action on our part.

Fun reads both. They Work so much better when considered together than each separately. Putting them together under one binder suggests they are related. Yet the dark forbidding of King's Justice had a flavor a bit more to my liking. Augurs Gambit was like a great dessert after a heavy meal,,with just the rite tart at the rite moments to counter the sweet. Together, one sumptuous meal!

So, according to latest SRD Mail..more works in progress! Heck, now its..I HOPE to be Alive when they are Released..Use to be , hope he lives long enuf to finish..Classic SRD, Turning The Table!
If she withdrew from exaltation, she would be forced to think- And every thought led to fear and contradictions; to dilemmas for which she was unprepared.
pg4 TLD
User avatar
Sorus
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 13870
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:45 pm
Location: the tiny calm before the storm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Sorus »

Hey, Lurch! :wave:

Oh, a change is coming, feel these doors now closing
Is there no world for tomorrow, if we wait for today?


User avatar
ussusimiel
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 5346
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:34 am
Location: Waterford (milking cows), and sometimes still Dublin, Ireland

Post by ussusimiel »

Good to see you around Lurch!

Any chance we'll see you in Albuquerque in October?

u.
Tho' all the maps of blood and flesh
Are posted on the door,
There's no one who has told us yet
What Boogie Street is for.
User avatar
Cagliostro
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 9360
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:39 pm
Location: Colorado

Post by Cagliostro »

ussusimiel wrote:Good to see you around Lurch!

Any chance we'll see you in Albuquerque in October?

u.
I'm not sure if Lurch ever said he was ever coming to one of the Elohimfests, but he tends to suddenly appear, spread his awesomeness around for a while, and then disappear like a ninja. Count any time you get with him a blessing.

Welcome back Lurch, even if it is temporary, but for the record I'd like to see you around more often.
lurch wrote:Heck, now its..I HOPE to be Alive when they are Released..Use to be , hope he lives long enuf to finish..Classic SRD, Turning The Table!
I can completely relate.
Image
Life is a waste of time
Time is a waste of life
So get wasted all of the time
And you'll have the time of your life
User avatar
peter
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 11488
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:08 am
Location: Another time. Another place.
Been thanked: 4 times

Post by peter »

I've read all the above posts and concur with much, but not all of what has been said. I was underwhelmed by the story - I read it over two sittings, and came to the second with no real degree of enthusiasm - and like Z was not won over by the cave set denouement. This was a poor cousin to either Reave the Just or Ser Visal's Tale, readable but in no way memorable.
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
JIkj fjds j
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1058
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:41 pm
Location: 24i v o ot

Post by JIkj fjds j »

Image
Post Reply

Return to “General SRD Discussion and Other Works”